Going going, Saddy's Gone?

Politics International Politics
81

Your comments make me think you’ve not seen much on the internet if you found that footage really grotesque. Some of the beheading videos make Saddam’s hanging look like a walk in the park. Those are truly not for everyone…[/quote]

i avoid that stuff.[/quote]

Wise choice. I can handle quite a bit, but there was one beheading video in particular that is etched a little more firmly in my mind than I’d like. :s

Well, I guess that goes both ways, except for the being surprised part. I figured I and anyone else supporting Saddam’s hanging and the death penalty in general would face a deluge of self-righteous scorn from the bleeding-hearts that abound.

Capital punishment is one of the more contentious issues discussed, no?

82

the future! the future! labour loves kissing republican ass, if the conservatives ever get in they’ll need the jaws of life to get their head out of it. big difference between broony wishful thinking and the real world politics.

if you said this to an american in a bar this would be their reaction :roflmao: if an american said that about europe to a euro (while he’s wearing his favorite leather chaps :laughing: ) this would be his reaction :rant: I wonder why that is :whistle:

Good night everybody! See you next year!

83

[quote=“Limey”]I’m truly surprised at the general opinion here. I thought I’d get shot down in a barrage of anti-pacifist bull and warmonger outrage.

Looks like F.com is comprised somewhat of that mythical 5%.

L.[/quote]

Limey, I respect your opinion. I really do. I however do not agree that the world is innately civilized, and on that I think even BroonAristocrat will agree.

You may have grown up in a civilised world of rules and fairness. I did not. MOST people on this rock do not. Maybe you have had the opportunities in your life to give you a perspective that allows you to say that killing a man who is a serial murderer on a massive scale is inhumane.

I however, did not. I am not a war monger. I hate war and I don’t believe anyone should take anyone else’s life. But, I know better. I don’t have any illusion of what most humans really are: animals, organized, smart, and quite wonderful at times, but we are animals: afraid, selfish, hypocritical and contradictory.

I just watched the video of Saddam talking/praying before he died. Funny he quoted the Koran at his execution, because he certainly didn’t live by that book. I am reminded of other death row victims finding Jesus, and I am unimpressed.

Why make a big deal out of how one dies, and care so little about how one lives? I believe it is ironic that we too are stuck debating the meaning of his death and seem to ignore the horrors his LIFE caused millions and millions of people. It bothered me that he lived as he did; it does not bother me how or that he died.

peace
:rainbow:

84

Limey wrote [quote]Looks like F.com is comprised somewhat of that mythical 5%. [/quote]
What 5%? Homosexuals? :astonished:

85

[quote=“Big Fluffy Matthew”][quote]Saddam did not hang alone.[/quote]Yes he did[quote]Two other men were executed along with him[/quote]No they weren’t.
You’re completely wrong, completely overflowing with wrongness…[/quote]BFM -
It was AFP that was wrong. I should know better than to post an AFP story, eh?
DB -
Thanks for the follow-up on that. I guess things were flowing fast & loose in the media execution frenzy.

86

[quote=“jdsmith”][quote=“Limey”]I’m truly surprised at the general opinion here. I thought I’d get shot down in a barrage of anti-pacifist bull and warmonger outrage.

Looks like F.com is comprised somewhat of that mythical 5%.

L.[/quote]

Limey, I respect your opinion. I really do. I however do not agree that the world is innately civilized, and on that I think even BroonAristocrat will agree.

You may have grown up in a civilised world of rules and fairness. I did not. MOST people on this rock do not. Maybe you have had the opportunities in your life to give you a perspective that allows you to say that killing a man who is a serial murderer on a massive scale is inhumane.

I however, did not. I am not a war monger. I hate war and I don’t believe anyone should take anyone else’s life. But, I know better. I don’t have any illusion of what most humans really are: animals, organized, smart, and quite wonderful at times, but we are animals: afraid, selfish, hypocritical and contradictory.

I just watched the video of Saddam talking/praying before he died. Funny he quoted the Koran at his execution, because he certainly didn’t live by that book. I am reminded of other death row victims finding Jesus, and I am unimpressed.

Why make a big deal out of how one dies, and care so little about how one lives? I believe it is ironic that we too are stuck debating the meaning of his death and seem to ignore the horrors his LIFE caused millions and millions of people. It bothered me that he lived as he did; it does not bother me how or that he died.

peace
:rainbow:[/quote]

It is so strange how we agree on so much JD. The more you write, the more I comprehend the difficult position his executioners were put in, and the fact that they couldn’t have taken the decision at all lightly. Also the fact that influences in our lives effect our opinions so much, but to take another life in cold blood? I still can’t get vengence out of my mind. But as you said - we are animals.

Finding God (any flavour) before your execution is just ridiculous - You either live your whole life with or without Him (It or She, as you wish :slight_smile: ) There is no excuse for this turn around of belief at the last moment.

JD - Thanks for taking the time to write and explain. I hope I’m never put in the position where I have to decide whether someone lives or dies; except where that person is myself - and on that desicion the jury is already out…another discussion maybe.

I undertook jury duty as a teenager. The decision to incacerate a scroatbag was easy for me. There was no rage, hate or vengence - just the facts of the matter. If that issue was closer to home I wonder how I would have reacted back then and now - fifteen years later, would they have been they same?

L.

87

Sure, no problem. I never said
I
was an animal! :rainbow:

88

I think Saddam got what he richly deserved - but I don’t think we did.

His guilt is now going to be overshadowed by questions over procedure and accusuations of American “victor’s justice”.

89

[quote=“Elegua”]I think Saddam got what he richly deserved - but I don’t think we did.

His guilt is now going to be overshadowed by questions over procedure and accusuations of American “victor’s justice”.[/quote]

I agree. Far too hasty and a political not a judicial decision. It doesn’t matter what bluster we get from the Bush administration or the Malarky puppet show, this was a farce. Would have been better to try him further but methinks Saddam knew a little bit more about the yanks and their skeletons than the scummy yank administration is comfortable with.

BroonAngman

90

lo

91

[quote=“BroonAle”][quote=“Elegua”]I think Saddam got what he richly deserved - but I don’t think we did.

His guilt is now going to be overshadowed by questions over procedure and accusuations of American “victor’s justice”.[/quote]

I agree. Far too hasty and a political not a judicial decision. It doesn’t matter what bluster we get from the Bush administration or the Malarky puppet show, this was a farce. Would have been better to try him further but methinks Saddam knew a little bit more about the yanks and their skeletons than the scummy yank administration is comfortable with.

BroonAngman[/quote]

The Russian and French didn’t put up too much of stink though did they? Wonder why that is? :unamused:

It was a farce. Too much “nice war.” Saddam should have given to the Iraqis the moment he came out of his hideyhole, and given a nice Romanian Head of State burial.

End of story.

Iraqis celebrate; reconstructiong begins. The trial was a watse of time and money and lives.

92

[quote=“Elegua”]I think Saddam got what he richly deserved[/quote]Less than he might have “deserved”, but he is dead.[quote=“Elegua”]"… - but I don’t think we did. [/quote] Not to be pedantic, but define who “we” is. The Iraqui people? The ‘world’? The Coalition Forces?

[quote=“Elegua”]His guilt is now going to be overshadowed by questions over procedure and accusuations of American “victor’s justice”.[/quote]IMO. no…not even close. The wringing of hands over his timely trial and execution by the Iraqui court and judicial system will continue by those trying to undermine and second guess the mission in Iraq and Afghanistan. But it will have little effect outside the small clique which this group claims to represent.
The only complaints I have heard from the “Arab” world is that the excution was done on the 1st day of Eid. Most Moslems thought it should have been postponed to the 2nd or 3rd day. But its not really causing any division in the approval of executing Saddam.
His guilt was plainly evident. His trial was transparent, the verdict unanimous and the execution was carried out with correct procedure and due dignity.
Let the professional 2nd guessers complain. The war moves on and Iraq will continue to progress more and more under their own volition.
It will take time. The naysayers use this needed time as their evidence of failure…Whataya gonna do?

93

[quote]
i think the manner in which we decide to put people to death or sanctioning putting people to death says something about our view of life.[/quote]

Me too, that human forgiveness has limitations. And that that is not such a bad thing.

I do not think that killing Saddam makes those who did it, those who supported it, those who opposed it, or those who knew nothing about it, ANY less of a person than they were before.

The guys who served by Saddam’s side for years though and knew that he was doing wrong, if there were any, should feel less human, because they should have put a bullet through his brain when they had the chance.

Same goes for Robert Mugabe and those close to him. :raspberry:

94

buttton happy- sorry

95

Button happy :frowning:

96

[quote=“TainanCowboy”]
The only complaints I have heard from the “Arab” world is that the excution was done on the 1st day of Eid. Most Moslems thought it should have been postponed to the 2nd or 3rd day.[/quote]

Any Moslems care to comment on the discussion so far?

(Not wanting to undermine you TC :slight_smile: - I’d like to get a clear picture of what people think)

L.

97

I don’t support the death penalty and will not watch the video. I assume those of you that are calling the trial a sham are referring to the sentence not the verdict. Maybe for Saddam life in prison would have been a worse fate, torturous I’m sure. Is death worse than torture?

If only Johnny Cochrane could speak Arabic.

98

No problem. Confusion in such matters is to be expected. Had I posted any earlier than I did, I would likely have quoted incorrect information, as it turns out.

[quote=“jdsmith”]Limey…Maybe you have had the opportunities in your life to give you a perspective that allows you to say that killing a man who is a serial murderer on a massive scale is inhumane.

I however, did not. I am not a war monger. I hate war and I don’t believe anyone should take anyone else’s life. But, I know better. I don’t have any illusion of what most humans really are: animals, organized, smart, and quite wonderful at times, but we are animals: afraid, selfish, hypocritical and contradictory.

I just watched the video of Saddam talking/praying before he died. Funny he quoted the Koran at his execution, because he certainly didn’t live by that book. I am reminded of other death row victims finding Jesus, and I am unimpressed.

Why make a big deal out of how one dies, and care so little about how one lives? I believe it is ironic that we too are stuck debating the meaning of his death and seem to ignore the horrors his LIFE caused millions and millions of people. It bothered me that he lived as he did; it does not bother me how or that he died.[/quote]

Personally, I think that this is one of JDSmith’s finest posts, and I quote it in its entirety because I find it worth rereading.

99

[quote=“TainanCowboy”][quote=“Elegua”]I think Saddam got what he richly deserved[/quote]Less than he might have “deserved”, but he is dead.[quote=“Elegua”]"… - but I don’t think we did. [/quote] Not to be pedantic, but define who “we” is. The Iraqui people? The ‘world’? The Coalition Forces?

[quote=“Elegua”]His guilt is now going to be overshadowed by questions over procedure and accusuations of American “victor’s justice”.[/quote]IMO. no…not even close. The wringing of hands over his timely trial and execution by the Iraqui court and judicial system will continue by those trying to undermine and second guess the mission in Iraq and Afghanistan. But it will have little effect outside the small clique which this group claims to represent.
The only complaints I have heard from the “Arab” world is that the excution was done on the 1st day of Eid. Most Moslems thought it should have been postponed to the 2nd or 3rd day. But its not really causing any division in the approval of executing Saddam.
His guilt was plainly evident. His trial was transparent, the verdict unanimous and the execution was carried out with correct procedure and due dignity.
Let the professional 2nd guessers complain. The war moves on and Iraq will continue to progress more and more under their own volition.
It will take time. The naysayers use this needed time as their evidence of failure…Whataya gonna do?[/quote]

[quote]Elegua wrote:
I think Saddam got what he richly deserved
Less than he might have “deserved”, but he is dead.[/quote]

And? - by our laws / moral code we must avoid, ‘cruel and unusual punishment’, however richly deserved.

[quote]Elegua wrote:
"… - but I don’t think we did.
Not to be pedantic, but define who “we” is. The Iraqui people? The ‘world’? The Coalition Forces?[/quote]

We as in the societies that are paying the price in blood and treasure for this little adventure.

[quote]Elegua wrote:
His guilt is now going to be overshadowed by questions over procedure and accusuations of American “victor’s justice”.
IMO. no…not even close. The wringing of hands over his timely trial and execution by the Iraqui court and judicial system will continue by those trying to undermine and second guess the mission in Iraq and Afghanistan. But it will have little effect outside the small clique which this group claims to represent.
The only complaints I have heard from the “Arab” world is that the excution was done on the 1st day of Eid. Most Moslems thought it should have been postponed to the 2nd or 3rd day. But its not really causing any division in the approval of executing Saddam.
His guilt was plainly evident. His trial was transparent, the verdict unanimous and the execution was carried out with correct procedure and due dignity[/quote]

Who said he wasn’t guiilty? I wanted to see him go on trial for more that just this one event. He’s got a list of crimes so long, and far beyond what he was convicted for, they deserve to be read out in court. How much more balanced would the verdic appear if he was convicted for crimes against Sunni & Kurds? If you look at this execution in terms of what we are trying to acheive, ( a multi-cultural, non-sectarian, democratic society), the timing is piss poor.

100

Surely there should be a consensus among those who supported and opposed the war and those who support and oppose the death penalty that Saddam should have faced justice for as many as possible of his major crimes. Particularly since the one he was convicted of probably wasn’t his worst. Don’t we agree on the rule of law? Or was killing Saddam an end in itself (rather than the result of the process of justice)?

Those who are glad “justice has been done” should want more of it, for his other victims. Isn’t that why people get sent away for hundreds of years in the US - because of the belief justice must be done for all the crimes, not just one. Admittedly you can’t execute someone more than once any more than currently you can send someone away for hundreds of years, but you can execute them in the name of all of their victims. We have all the time in the world to do things right.

Imagine convicting Hitler for violating the Weimar constitution (treason?) or an early murder, executing him and having done with it.

It’s not the verdict or the sentence that is a sham. We all “know” or think we do, that Saddam was guilty of something heinous. I am wholeheartedly opposed to the death penalty for practical and ethical reasons, but I don’t think an Iraqi court sentencing him to death having found him guilty is a sham.

It’s the process by which they arrived at the (almost certainly correct) verdict and the process by which they carried out the sentence (which you may or may not agree with) that was a sham.

Process does matter. Guilty people walk free because of this - inadmissible evidence etc - and it’s bloody frustrating, but the alternative of convicting people because “we all know he’s guilty” is worse. In Saddam’s case, there would have been no shortage of admissible evidence.