Grammar and the necessity thereof

Q: After reading these sentences, do you feel that it is, or it is not necessary (at the appropriate time or level) to explain the grammar of the following example when teaching English?
Ex:
a) Swimming is great exercise.
b) I am swimming in a sea of confusion.
c) I was thrown into a swimming pool.
d) Everything’s going just swimmingly.

In a), “swimming” is a noun (and the Subject). In b), it’s a verb (and/or may be an Object). In c) it’s an adjective. In d) it’s an adverb.

Of course, this is not elementary or beginner English, so please keep your comments above that level – or at least try to say something really funny!

Historical note: In the past, “Grammar School” was the first name/label for an elementary school (in more than one English speaking place or country), circa the late 1800s up until around the 1950s.

It is absolutely necessary! Students who don’t understand the grammatical forms and functions of the continuous tenses and gerunds can become especially confused by sentences like these.

If they’re being taught in a grammar-centric program, and living in a test-centric country – probably.
In a more free environment, where the teacher would be able to select an approach – no. Meaning linked to structure or words is enough. It’s useful, once students have acquired the grammar of the language, to do word study to expand vocabulary, but that assumes that they have really acquired the grammar. Even at an advanced level in Taiwan, that is unusual – hence the lack of fluency we see (and hear).

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I think the original grammar schools taught Latin grammar.

You are joking, right?

Her Teacher’s Guide to the same book (1994) says as much.

Seriously, are people actually teaching this kind of stuff in Taiwan? The pool looks very swimming. This pool is more swimming than that one. Right? :laughing:

“Swimming pool” is a compound noun. It’s made up of verb + noun. Just like “washing machine”, “fishing rod”, etc.

edit: Charlie, I don’t disagree with what you wrote, it’s just irrelevant in this case.

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[quote=“Charlie Jack”]

That is bizarre. :wink:
The expression “flower garden” is a compund noun - the first noun is used to indicate a subset of what the second noun refers to:
there are many gardens, and a subset of those gardens are flower gardens…
:slight_smile:

A brief explanation of compound nouns and nouns that are compounds of other parts of speech with nouns:
english4today.com/englishgra … NOUNS4.cfm
:slight_smile:

Just noticed the OP is also wrong about (a). Don’t want to turn this into a yet another teacher-kicking thread, but seriously, how can anyone have the kahunas to stand in front of a class and teach English grammar when they can’t even recognize the basic parts of speech?

[quote=“yuli”][quote=“Charlie Jack”][quote=“monkey”][quote=“IYouThem”]

c) I was thrown into a swimming pool.

In c) it’s an adjective.

[/quote]

You are joking, right?[/quote]

That is bizarre. :wink:
The expression “flower garden” is a compund noun - the first noun is used to indicate a subset of what the second noun refers to:
there are many gardens, and a subset of those gardens are flower gardens…
:slight_smile:

A brief explanation of compound nouns and nouns that are compounds of other parts of speech with nouns:
english4today.com/englishgra … NOUNS4.cfm
:slight_smile:[/quote]

Thanks, yuli. It’s a good thing you’re here to explain these things to me.

Azar’s example was flower garden. Not all dictionaries list flower garden as a noun, but one dictionary does:

[quote]flower garden

noun
a garden featuring flowering plants[/quote]–WordNet 2.0 (Princeton University) dictionary.reference.com/browse/flower+garden

Here’s another example of an adjectival noun, from Harbrace College Handbook, Ninth Edition:

[quote]Functions of nouns


ADJECTIVAL The mountain laurel is the state flower of Connecticut and Pennsylvania.[/quote] (emphasis in original)

Here is mountain laurel as a noun in Webster’s New World College Dictionary:

[quote]mountain laurel


an evergreen shrub (Kalmia latifolia) of the heath family, with pink and white flowers and poisonous, shiny leaves, native to E North America[/quote] yourdictionary.com/mountain-laurel

What kind of noun can mountain laurel be, if not a compound noun? Yet Harbrace says that mountain functions adjectivally in that compound noun.

[quote=“Michael Swan”]378 noun modifiers

It is common in English to use nouns in a similar way to adjectives, to modify other nouns.


379 nouns in groups (1): introduction and general rules

1 three structures

There are three main ways in which we can put nouns together so that one modifies another.

a noun + noun


coffee beans[/quote]–Practical English Usage

Yet Cambridge Advanced Learner’s Dictionary and Thesaurus lists coffee bean as a noun:

[quote]coffee bean
noun n [C] Definition
a seed of a tropical bush which is heated until it is brown and then crushed to make coffee[/quote]
dictionary.cambridge.org/diction … offee+bean

What kind of noun is coffee bean, if not a compound noun? Yet Swan says that coffee modifies beans in that construction.

Some of you seem to hold to very high standards. Indeed, on this issue your standard seems higher than that of the grammar manuals.

[quote=“Elsewhere I wrote”]Nomenclature and concepts differ from place to place, and they change over time. I think it’s a good thing to have some kind of nomenclature, though, but in grammar, differences in names or even concepts don’t matter too much to me, [color=#000080]as long as I have the opportunity to get on the same page as the person using them[/color].[/quote] Grammar above my pay grade! - #15 by Charlie_Jack

But I suspect that some folks here rather enjoy not being on the same page.

Charlie, the page, I believe was about verb-noun compounds, not noun-noun compounds. Correct me if I’m wrong. :eh:

[quote=“IYouThem”]


Ex:
a) Swimming is great exercise.


In a), “swimming” is a noun (and the Subject).[/quote]

[quote]’ swimming [color=#000080]
n
[/color], adj [/quote]–Collins English Dictionary - Complete & Unabridged , 10th Edition dictionary.reference.com/browse/swimming

[quote]swimming


[color=#000080]
noun
[/color]

the act, practice, sport, etc. of a person or animal that swims [/quote]–Webster’s New World College Dictionary yourdictionary.com/swimming

[quote]swimming
[color=#000080]noun[/color]
/ˈswɪm.ɪŋ/ n [U] The doctor recommended swimming as the best all-round exercise.[/quote]–Cambridge Advanced Learner’s Dictionary & Thesaurus dictionary.cambridge.org/diction … q=swimming

Please see the dictionary entries quoted and cited above.

[quote=“Charlie Jack”]

[quote]Functions of nouns


ADJECTIVAL[/quote][/quote]
Yes, nouns, like adjectives, verbs, and more, can modifiy the meaning of nouns they are placed before, but that does not change a noun (a word of a certain class) into an adjective (a word of a differenc lass) - the term “adjectival” (not a word class but a function descriptor) takes care of that, however: as we see here nouns can have an adjectival function… :slight_smile:

and

[quote=“Michael Swan”]378 noun modifiers
It is common in English to use nouns in a similar way to adjectives, to modify other nouns.[/quote]
My point. :slight_smile: And this feature is by no means unique to English… :laughing:

[quote][…] coffee beans […]
Swan says that coffee modifies beans in that construction.[/quote]
Yes, coffee beans are a subset of all items one might refer to as beans. Or, said in in a different way, the expression “coffee bean” is narrower in its meaning than the word “bean” by itself.

[quote=“Elsewhere I wrote”]Nomenclature and concepts differ from place to place, and they change over time. I think it’s a good thing to have some kind of nomenclature, though, but in grammar, differences in names or even concepts don’t matter too much to me, [color=#000080]as long as I have the opportunity to get on the same page as the person using them[/color].

But I suspect that some folks here rather enjoy not being on the same page.[/quote]
It rather seems more unavoidable than enjoyable… :laughing:

And although some grammarians call “swimming” a “noun”, i think it might possibly be better (to avoid confusion) to call it a “gerund”.
Gerunds are nouns that have come into existence through nominalisation of present participles of verbs.
I am not making this up - it is what i learned in school and from books… :laughing:

PS: I am not a native speaker of English, but i have learned early in life to use grammars like maps: they are useful if i don’t know the way or know it myself but want to show someone else the way - but they are not needed if everybody involved knows the way. And i think it is fair to say that i am quite good at map reading (it just so happened - there are plenty of other things i’m no good at).
Anyway, like with maps, some grammars work better than others, and as long as we have a choice i think we should pick those that help us best to find our way or to explain the way to other people. :laughing:

When I was in the military, they called a spade an entrenching tool. In France, the government can mandate what kind of language is used in some communicative contexts. But I ain’t in the military no more, and I ain’t in France. And neither, as far as I know, is IYouThem. Now, I would ordinarily call swimming (as it’s used in his example) a noun adjunct. But if IYouThem wants to call it an adjective, it’s OK with me, because its function is the same as that of an adjective.

[quote=“yuli”]And although some grammarians call “swimming” a “noun”, I think it might possibly be better (to avoid confusion) to call it a “gerund”.[/quote] I’ll go along with that (that is, I’ll go along with your calling it that), even though my personal belief (just personal–I can’t cite any authority) is that some words lose their gerundial (I think that’s the first time I’ve ever used the word gerundial) quality over time.

Edit: Here’s an author who is comfortable using the terms noun, gerund, and adjective in reference to the same word in the same construction:

[quote]8.3.5 [color=#000080]Noun[/color] as [color=#000080]adjective[/color]


Included here are [color=#000080]gerunds[/color] (-ing forms as [color=#000080]nouns[/color]), e.g. [color=#000080]swimming pool[/color], racing pigeon, etc.[/quote]–Tony Penston, A Concise Grammar for English Language Teachers

Collectively, we’re making a strong case for banning the teaching of grammar, at least in Taiwan, and at least by native speakers (except for ironlady, who actually answered the question, but I think she don’t too much like grammar noways). But I wanted in on this one, because in recent weeks (well, actually, for quite some time now), while reading some of the threads in this forum, I’ve been repeatedly put in mind of the Latin expression Quo warranto?

Yes, he is in good company - there are plenty of articles on grammer on the web that do the same… nevermind that doing so only pushes the problem to another level: later confused students will need to know that those “adjectives” (noun adjuncts) can only be used attributively, and not, as they had learned at some other time about adjectives (real adjectives) also predicatively. Anyway, some poeple think there is a good reason why word classes and function descriptors are defined and used separately and not treated as if they were the same - it’s like choosing a coloured map over a black and white one. :idunno:

You have a point here: as has been suggsted by others before, native speakers are generally not well-equipped to explain the grammar of their own language - and why should they be? The Aboriginees didn’t need maps, - it was the likes of James Cook and Joseph Banks who needed them…

In Japan all this is in the hands/ under the jurisdiction of the Ministry of Education, Culture, Sports, Science and Technology. What would be your suggestions be if (purely hypothetically) someone from the Tauwanese equivalent of that ministry were to ask you for advice in regards teaching English in Taiwan? :astonished:

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[quote=“IYouThem”]Q: After reading these sentences, do you feel that it is, or it is not necessary (at the appropriate time or level) to explain the grammar of the following example when teaching English?
Ex:
a) Swimming is great exercise.
b) I am swimming in a sea of confusion.
c) I was thrown into a swimming pool.
d) Everything’s going just swimmingly.

In a), “swimming” is a noun (and the Subject). In b), it’s a verb (and/or may be an Object). In c) it’s an adjective. In d) it’s an adverb.
[/quote]

I get the feeling that you are just starting out this stuff so I’ll try to explain it the way I wish it was explained to me when I started out.

First off, in “b,” swimming is DEFINITELY NOT an object, it is part of the verb phrase “is swimming.” In “I am tired of swimming” the noun “swimming” is the object of “of,” but in “I am swimming” it combines with “am” to tell what the subject IS DOING. It’s part of a verb phrase.

Yes, it is appropriate to teach all this grammar at the appropriate time or level, but what is the appropriate time or level? That is not really such a trick question. The appropriate time or level is when they already have it half assed understood and are still making mistakes with it, or when they start to become curious and start asking about it. Failing those two conditions, the time to teach it is never probably.

(You definitely DON’T want to burden people with grammar explanations until they are pretty well familiar with the vocabulary, that is, have seen it used many times and have a pretty good idea what it meant. Often your best tool there is translation, for example “Youyong shi hen hao de yundong” (hope I got that right) for “swimming is good excercise” and “ta zai youyong” for "he is swimming. Tons of repitition after that. Swimming is good exercise. Is walking good exercise? Yes, walking is good execrcise? Is drinking beer good exercise? No, drinking beer is not good exercise, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

If you have done that and they are still having trouble with it (they won’t) or they ask about it (they won’t) then maybe teach it as a grammatical concept.

Your example number two adds a metaphor that “might” confuse people, if it does take it out, though it probably won’t.

DEMONSTRATE the present progressive. I am bouncing a ball (you really are.) Say, “I am bouncing a ball.” Ask, "Are you/ is he/ is she bouncing a ball? Etc. etc. etc.

The ing form of verbs can be the subject or object of a sentence. Subjects are things. Things are nouns, even if they are abstract things or things that are the names of activities.

The ing form of verbs can be used as adjectives. You swim in a swimming pool but wade in a wading pool. They are both pools. “Swimming” and “wading” describe the noun “pool.” Words that describe nouns are adjectives. The ing form can’t be used as an adjective in a sentence like the adjective “hot” is used in a sentence like “She is hot,” because in the sentence “She is swimming,” “is swimming” tells what she IS DOING, it’s a verb phrase.

The “swimmingly” example is a rare usage (a lot of what you, as a native speaker, think is common is actually rarer than you imagine) so don’t introduce it or explain it unless it is happened upon. If it is happened upon say that it is a metaphorical use of an adverb form. Metaphor is a basic language function that most seem to be familiar with. If you have an assistant tell her to tell them it’s a “biyu de shoufa” meaning “It’s going well.” Explain that adverbs frequently seem to describe entire sentences, as this one does here. You might want to substitute "beautifully’ into the same spot.

I practically NEVER teach any of this stuff explicitly, btw. I will soon start though with one adult because I can tell he is operating on the assumption that he knows a lot about grammar when in fact the ideas “he already has” swimming around in his head are all bits and pieces he picked up listening to people (both western and chinese) who didn’t know what they were talking about. He is quite intelligent and very analytical. I “think” it might make sense trying to sort out the rats nest in his brain but I don’t think for an instant that it will make a spit of difference if he doesn’t actually hear the patterns hundreds or perhaps thousands of times, and if he doesn’t understand both precisely what the words are and what they mean.

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[quote=“yuli”]What would be your suggestions be if (purely hypothetically) someone from the Tauwanese equivalent of that ministry were to ask you for advice in regards teaching English in Taiwan? :astonished:[/quote] I figure the odds of such an event are similar to the odds of my encountering a red wolf in need of first aid (even in the Southern U. S., that would be a long shot). And if such a person did ask me for advice, I’d have some doubts as to his or her seriousness. But if such a highly unlikely event were to occur, I’d probably refer that person to Joesox, ironlady, tomthorne, and maybe some others.

Um …, I am not just starting out on this stuff. I am, perhaps, starting out on changing how I understand (prior to teaching) this stuff. For a related example, I found that teaching “a” and “the” as Indefinite and Definite Articles had questionable value to ESL students. Teaching “a” and “the” as adjectives is far more productive. As an authority, I read what one province in Canada had chosen about this.

Grammar still remains an area that can change, in both understanding and usage, as all living languages can and do. One reason I said that in b), swimming may be an Object is from the following (by Umberto Eco in his book, “Kant and the Platypus”, p. 24):
[…] if being is the horizon of departure, saying that something “is” adds nothing to what was already self-evident by the very fact of naming that something as the object of our discourse. Being underpins all discourses […]"

The jury is still out on the meaning, function and definition of “be” in the English language. Eco continues on for many pages trying to grasp the meaning of “be” and provides much stimulation, but nothing is conclusive. An excellent approach, in my opinion (although I have a tough time understanding a lot of what he is saying!).

Yes, “be” + swimming is a verb phrase, but to summarily dismiss the concept that “swimming” could be an Object is to imply that the function of the verb “be” is understood and complete. As far as I know, there is not complete definition of the word “be”, thus there cannot be any conclusive claims made about any words that follow it.

Oh. My. Stars.
Why not just tell them what “a” and “the” mean in actual meaningful sentences, and contrast that with sentences that do not have “a” and “the”?

Grammar changes, but what you’re talking about is not the actual grammar of the language (which is just the set of acceptable utterances and the rules that describe them) – it’s the analysis of the same acceptable item. It’s more like meta-grammar – the endless debate about “what shall we call this?”

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