While I believe this is correct, it is a statement of how vs. why. How is useful, but I’m mostly trying to figure out why.
[quote=“joesax”][quote=“seeker4”]“She is the younger of the two sisters”
“Of the two wrestlers, John is the stronger”
…
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What is the grammatical logic behind using “the” in those last examples?
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How is that different from the more general use, such as “he is bigger” (no “the”)?
[/quote]
It’s as Irishstu said. It’s a case of using a comparative form with a superlative sense.
[/quote]
This might be a bit like asking the question about “one hand clapping,” but … within the context of this conversation, when is a comparative form used without a superlative sense? If you have three people, with superlative, you are saying one is the most. But with two people and comparative, effectively, you’re saying exactly the same thing. That would seem to dictate the use of “the” in all cases of using comparatives, but it doesn’t. In other words, we always seem to be describing the superlative sense with comparatives, even if we don’t say that or immediately think of it that way. In the simplest example, “John is bigger than Bill,” John is both larger in size and the largest (between the two of them), but we don’t use “the”. ??
[quote=“joesax”]
According to prescriptive grammar, this is the correct way to express a superlative sense when there are only two persons or objects, as Tyio Ma said. The “…est” superlative is used for three or more.
From a viewpoint of descriptive grammar, however, it’s not so clearcut. According to Celce-Murcia and Larsen-Freeman in their excellent work “The Grammar Book”:
“…this is an oversimplification of the difference between comparatives and superlatives. Whether a speaker chooses to use a comparative or superlative to a large extent depends upon the speaker’s perspective, not upon the number of things/people being compared.”[/quote]
Very interesting point about prescriptive vs. descriptive here, although I think it addresses a related, but different issue. That issue is whether to use the true superlative form (-est) in a traditionally comparative role (between two people).
[quote=“puiwaihin”][quote=“seeker4”]An example TOEIC question:
[i]“Between them, Dr. Gates has ______ insight.”
A. the greater
B. greater[/i][/quote]
Coming back to the specific example, my initial feeling is that both are equally correct. The use of “the” would be optional. Most likely the test writer made a mistake. S/he wanted to test the comparative form and the correct answer would be “greater”, and then chose what s/he thought would be the best set of wrong answers for the test. The superlative “greatest/the greatest” and a fusion of comparative and superlative: the + greater “the greater”. This last choice was unfortunate because in this kind of structure you are dealing with a comparative used in a superlative sense (see Irishstu), and voila!, this thread is born.
But if we move the prepositional phrase to the end of the sentence we can actually see a difference.
A. Dr. Gates has greater insight between them.
B. Dr. Gates has the greater insight between them.
A seems to be saying that in the physical location between two objects, Dr. Gates’ insight is increased.
B says what is intended: of the two people, Dr. Gates has more insight.
So, according to the movement test, the correct answer should really be “B. the greater” but I’ll give you 10 to 1 odds that the TOEIC exam will have that be the wrong answer. I’d pick “A” on the test.[/quote]
Well, a couple of thoughts on this. We already have a few reference books that back up the TOEIC book’s answer (“the greater”). You had me going on the “movement test” idea, I was saying, “yeah, yeah, yeah” and then “no”. I was with you right until the end when you said “so the answer should be B”. I don’t see how your movement test arrives at that destination. In fact, I think you demonstrated how it arrived at the other destination. No?
You seem to just be saying that we must use “the” when expressing the superlative sense with comparatives. If so, there’s been lots of agreement on that, but still not much explanation.
[quote=“Ironman”]On the topic of “the”. Chinese don’t have it. If you removed it totally from English where would we be losing out? I wander how it originated?
I’m setting up a society for elimination of “the” from English language.[/quote]
Probably the most sane approach, except I’m hesitant to mix the words “Chinese language” and “sane” in the same sentence. Otherwise, great proposal. Sign me up.
OK, in all seriousness, “let me sum up”:
As I see it, we have quite a few statements that a specific usage is correct without explaining why it is correct. While not going where I wanted to go, it does help to explain why most grammar reference books do the same. And it makes the “how” clearer.
As for “why,” it seems the list of comments/concepts that might qualify as candidates for actual explanations, although needing further development, are as follows:
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“It’s not the adjective, silly, it’s the noun” by Big Fluffy Matthew.
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“Use of ‘the’ changes the meaning of the sentence” by puiwaihin.
Did I miss any other possible explanations?
At some point in a hunt for “why,” we often have to fall back on convention – it’s just the way we do it. That might be the case here as well, but I’m not satisfied that we’re at that point yet. It seems like we should be able to discern a reason that I can pass on to students and non-native teachers who are asking this question.
Oh yeah, and thanks for all the good comments so far!
Section: Parts of Speech.