Guantanamo Concentration Camp?

660 prisoners from 42 countries are confined to US military base Guantanamo.
Labeled unlawful enemy combatants by the Pentagon they have no status. They are neither prisoners of war, nor political prisoners, nor ordinary prisoners. Confined to cages, they are hostages. Outside of the law, the hostages of Guantanamo are practically cut off from all outside communication, whether it be with their parents, their lawyers, or the members of parliament from their countries. This is a first in world history.

How many prisoners at Guantanamo have attempted suicide since the concentration camp opened?
A year ago: “about 30”
3 months ago: “27”
Yesterday: “30”

Usually, when something happens over and over again, the total number of times it’s happened increases.

[quote]Life in a Guantanamo cell
The treatment of suspected al-Qaeda and Taleban fighters detained at the US Guantanamo Bay base in Cuba has become the subject of international controversy.
Human Rights Watch described the 1.8m by 2.4m open-sided wire cells in which the men are being held as “a scandal”.
There was also concern that the detainees were seen handcuffed, blindfolded and masked. Later images showed them being manacled and clamped into leg irons on trolleys to be wheeled to interrogation huts.[/quote]

[quote]The government’s position is disingenuous, that the prisoners are not on sovereign U.S. territory, therefore the federal courts are closed to them. But the lease between the Cuban and U.S. governments specifically holds otherwise. In effect since the end of the Spanish-American war in 1903, the pertinent provision for the lease of the 45 square mile area that makes up the U.S. Naval Base says that “the United States shall exercise complete jurisdiction and control over and within said areas with the right to acquire . . . for the public purposes of the United States any land or other property therein by purchase or by exercise of eminent domain.” The lease gives the U.S. civil and criminal jurisdiction over all persons located therein. On its official web site, the U.S. Navy describes Guantanamo as “a Naval reservation, which, for all practical purposes, is American territory. Under the [lease] agreements, the United States has for approximately [one hundred] years exercised the essential elements of sovereignty over this territory, without actually owning it.”

While it should be noted that earlier legal precedent ruled that a base in Bermuda was not “sovereign” U.S. territory, that case did not deal with a prison camp presided over by military guards. To suggest that the U.S. can create a law-free zone where it may imprison whomever it wants whenever it wants for as long as it wants–and never charge or try them–is an astoundingly absurd proposition from any government, let alone one that purports to live by the rule of law.[/quote]

[quote]Red Cross blasts Guantanamo
A top Red Cross official has broken with tradition by publicly attacking conditions at the US military base on Cuba where al-Qaeda suspects are being held.

Christophe Girod - the senior Red Cross official in Washington - said it was unacceptable that the 600 detainees should be held indefinitely at Guantanamo Bay without legal safeguards.
The Red Cross is the only organisation with access to the detainees.
His criticism came as a group of American former judges, diplomats and military officers called on the US Supreme Court to examine the legality of holding the foreign nationals for almost two years, without trial, charge or access to lawyers.
Mr Girod said the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) was making the unusually blunt public statement because of a lack of action after previous private contacts with American officials.
“One cannot keep these detainees in this pattern, this situation, indefinitely,” he said during a visit to the US naval base where the Taleban and al-Qaeda suspects are being held.[/quote]

[quote]Attempted suicides at Guantanamo says all about the psychological state of the detainees at this concentration camp maintained by the USA in Cuba for political reasons.

The prisoners were taken in Afghanistan, were transported to Guantanamo base, dressed in orange shell-suits and held in conditions of high security under suspicion, but not charges, of belonging either to Al-Qaeda or to the Taliban regime. The psychological problems appear because these people are being treated like sub-humans by a regime which does not even concede to them the right to the status of prisoner of war, which would entitle them to protection under a number of conventions, the most famous of these being the Geneva Convention.

Instead, they are considered as illegal fighters, a term which has no precedent whatsoever and as such is not covered by any legal structure. These illegal fighters are incarcerated in deplorable conditions, many of them for more than a year and without any formal accusation, without access to legal counsel and without the right to have visitors.

Guantanamo is an American concentration camp on Cuban soil, a country which is accused of being totalitarian. What an excellent example the USA sets, what a great difference they illustrate between the regimes of these two countries. One is democratic and practises democracy. The other claims to be democratic yet maintains concentration camps on foreign soil away from the prying eyes of its journalists.

Shame on the Bush administration. Guantanamo brings back memories of Belsen and Dachau, which speaks volumes about the nature of the George W. Bush regime.[/quote]

Dachau and Belsen??? (it figures that the quoted source is Pravada:unamused: :unamused: :unamused: )

What a load of bullshit. Those jerkoffs get their Muslim food, Muslim clothes, Muslim chaplins, have Muslim prayer 5 times a day, medical care…they’ve received Mercy. What mercy did their victims receive??

The only thing that can be said in defense of this blight on the American tradition of rule of law is that it isn’t an American idea:

“After years of working closely together at all levels, the Israeli and U.S. militaries in some respects think increasingly alike, said Shoshana Bryen, director of special projects at the Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs, a nonprofit group in Washington interested in links between U.S. and Israeli defense tactics and policy.”
LA Times, 11/22/03 “U.S. Seeks Advice From Israel on Iraq”

hey they shouldn’t have joined organizations that intend to destroy us. yeah i’m really crying for those guys. oh yeah, rule of law, see you later guys, just let us know before you smuggle an a-bomb up our asses ok? thanks.

Lots of children out there trying to destroy us, yeah?

[quote]Children Detained at Guantanamo Should Be Released, Says Amnesty International

US Has Had Ample Time to Determine Status of All Detainees, Inaction Inexcusable

(WASHINGTON) - Amnesty International today called for the immediate release of the children in detention at Camp Delta in Guantanamo Bay. If the US military will not release the children, then they should be charged with a recognizable offense, provided with full judicial safeguards applying to youthful offenders, and transferred to a suitable juvenile detention facility, the organization stated.

“Amnesty International is deeply disturbed that the US, under the assumption that they are ‘enemy combatants,’ is holding children at Guantanamo Bay,” said Dr. William F. Schulz, Executive Director of Amnesty International USA. “The detention of children in these circumstances is particularly repugnant and flouts basic principles for the protection of children under international law.”[/quote] … _group.htm

But I guess if you give them video games, they’ll reform.

[quote]They have been held with no access to a lawyer or understanding of what will happen to them, our correspondent adds.
But the children have been given access to games, even videos, as well as an extensive education programme.
This has led to the belief that they can be rehabilitated.[/quote]

US challenged over boy prisoners

A senior United Nations envoy has called on the United States to take prompt action over the fate of three teenage boys being held with other terror suspects in its prison camp in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

One of the youths has been identified by Canadian media reports as a Canadian citizen wanted by the US over a grenade attack in Afghanistan which killed a US soldier.

If I would have captured the little bastards, I would have invoked Rule 5.56 three or four times to each of their heads. No fuss no muss…well, a lot of muss actually. :smiling_imp:

It’s a sad day for American democracy when Americans mock the principles America was founded on.

All’s that being asked is charge them with a crime, present evidence, try them fairly and convict and imprison them if they’re proven guilty.

If there is no evidence against them, free them. Anything less than that is un-American.

this is a new situation. we’re dealing with enemies who don’t recognize “American” principles, and who have shown themselves willing to attack civilians. what will be a sad day is when we allow our own people to be put in danger so that such people can enjoy those principles.

Portrait of a Terrorist:

Timothy McVeigh
Convicted of the second worst act of terrorism on American soil resulting in the deaths of 168 men, women and children
U.S. Army, 1988; Basic training, Fort Benning, GA; Assigned to 1st Infantry Division, Fort Riley, KS; Gunner (Bradley Fighting Vehicle), Persian Gulf War, 1991; Awarded Combat Infantry Badge and Bronze Star; Discharged, 1991
Additional Background:Registered republican; Former member, National Rifle Association.

The enemy can even be us. There are no neat categories that separate the good guys from the bad guys in this whole mess.

The only thing that clearly separates us from them is the principles we live by. If we abandon them we lower ourselves to their level and the only thing which makes us different from them any longer is our own conceit that we are different. Nothing more.

It’s an insidious process that sneaks up on you from behind. One day you’re ‘us’ and the next you’re ‘them’ and you never even saw it coming. For example, the woman in the blue burqa above is being summarily executed under the same ‘Rule 5.56’ – a bullet to the head – advocated above because she too was accused of taking a life, murdering her husband while he slept with a hammer blow to the head over a family dispute. Why is our blood lust to summarily invoke Rule 5.56 without trial any different? If there’s a difference I’m not seeing it.

So you’re saying we need to show them mutual barbarism in order to get our point across? “Don’t FUCK with US!”

American principles…(hee hee) You’ve opened up a can of worms with that! New thread!

Our own people? Who are they? Where do you draw the boundaries of who is and who isn’t? A Who’s who list? Hmmm…McCarthyism springs to mind. Who’s with us? Who’s not? It’s same fear mongering tactic some other groups, here, there and about history, have used as well. I defy you to name them. That’s all it is. It is not all consuming. We can resist. Notice the signs. Unless you’re completely blind they’d smack you about the head and face.
Oh, and what are ‘those principles’ you’re mentioning here? Please do detail them.

hey, i said “American” principles, which spook said. you’ll have to ask him!

the point is that principles don’t matter here. this is a life and death struggle with people who will laugh if they can kill you or your family.

by the way, that’s who our own people are, it doesn’t seem very complicated to me.

bringing timothy mcveigh into it is such a lame canard. it’s completely irrelevant. if an army of ex us servicemen went rampaging through the us committing terrorist acts it would have absolutely zero relevence to the issue we’re talking about.

yeah yeah, until they came to get me, fair enough but say what you want this is not nazi germany or even usa 1950. i agree it is a real concern but in my opinion as of now the threat to the safety of me and my family is a far more important issue.

Timothy McVeigh was no different from Osama bin Laden. His blind fanaticism eroded his belief in basic principles of right and wrong to the point where he was willing to incinerate children in pursuit of his agenda. His race, his citizenship, his former allegiances weren’t determinates of anything except to the careless observer.

The common thread among repressive, totalitarian governments is that democratic principles: due process, shared democratic power, rule of law etc.: make you weak and vulnerable. If you want to be strong, you have to be ruthless and unprincipled. Witness the former Soviet Union.

How did American then become the strongest country on earth militarily, economically and morally?

There’s a paradox at work here that every American citizen should be aware of and proud of. The fact that so few are is an indictment of the American educational system.

Are we now going to turn our backs on the very process which made us great and strong as a nation during our darkest times of trial?

[quote=“spook”]The common thread among repressive, totalitarian governments is that democratic principles: due process, shared democratic power, rule of law etc.: make you weak and vulnerable. If you want to be strong, you have to be ruthless and unprincipled. Witness the former Soviet Union.

How did American then become the strongest country on earth militarily, economically and morally?[/quote]

Some people will tell you that America became strong by enslaving blacks, decimating Indians, constantly harassing Latinos, and invading just about everyone else on the planet. I don’t believe this is true. But surely the ability of America to set aside some principles in the search for security and power is more a part of the history in its rise to power than is due process for foreign nationals caught during war.

It’s quite common for the U.S. to mold its constitutional priniciples during times of war or national emergency. If you are not aware of this, then you need to read up on American history.

Lest we forget:

On August 10, 1988, President Ronald Reagan signed the Civil Liberties Act of 1988. The Act was passed by Congress to provide a Presidential apology and symbolic payment of $20,000.00 to the internees, evacuees, and persons of Japanese ancestry who lost liberty or property because of discriminatory action by the Federal government during World War II.

[quote=“spook”]Lest we forget:

On August 10, 1988, President Ronald Reagan signed the Civil Liberties Act of 1988. The Act was passed by Congress to provide a Presidential apology and symbolic payment of $20,000.00 to the internees, evacuees, and persons of Japanese ancestry who lost liberty or property because of discriminatory action by the Federal government during World War II.[/quote]

Yes, this is a perfect example of what I’m talking about. These were Americans, too, not foreign nationals.

Maybe forty years after the war on terror ends, we’ll also make some symbolic gesture about the “wrongs” we committed during the war.

There’s no shortage of historical examples of the short-sighted among us losing sight of basic American values during times of fear:

Fortunately, there’s also always been a critical mass of true Americans like Harry S. Truman who have kept their eyes on the prize during troubled times. The times when their voices go silent though and the voices of expediency take center stage in American public life are always remembered as the low points in American history.

The main point of the study of history, of course, is that we learn to somehow stop repeating those mistakes with such monotonous regularity:

You know. You guys are right. We should just turn’em all loose. But since they’d probably be executed if they were returned to Afghanistan, maybe the US can cut a deal with Taiwan (weapons for apartment blocks) and house them all in Hsichih. What a great idea…and we’ll throw in Lee Boyd Malvo for free!

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

Uh, yes. It is, after all, a war :unamused:… and while “don’t fuck with us” is very good, the original phrase was “don’t tread on me”. Perhaps you’ve heard that phrase?

Cut the hysterics. Our “own people” are US citizens. What’s so dificult about that?

I agree that reasonable people can hold different opinions regarding the detainees and their treatment at Gitmo. But to compare or even imply that Gitmo is like a concentration camp is utterly asinine.

Have you any clue as to what the prisoners in the concentration camps went through? Have you never heard the horrifying stories of the treatment of those who were rounded up and placed in the death camps?

Some of the detainees who have been released from Gitmo have commented on how very well treated they were.

How many of the survivors of the concentration camps have you ever heard comment that they were well treated in the concentration camps?

:unamused: :unamused: :unamused:

No one is saying let them loose and no reasonable person is calling them concentration camps.

Just give them due process. Don’t succumb to the temptation to fight evil with evil.

Is it more trouble? Yes, it is. Democracy is a lot more trouble than just telling everybody what to do. Justice is a whole lot more work than a bullet in the head. Doing the right thing is always a stretch, an act of faith.

Do you believe in what makes America not Iraq? Do you easily jettison that faith when things get tough as if it’s just window dressing for the easy times? Then you don’t really believe in anything and America is just a big, blow-hard illusion.