Guardian: Concrete paves peasants' long road from poverty

Politics International Politics
21

You already stated you only understand the US system of government, to the point you don’t want to speculate about similar political systems in India/Brazil/Mexico… how did you also become an expert in the Chinese system of government, enough to question whether Beijing is taking steps to build consensus?

Please explain to me why a democratic China would look like the United States, but not India, Brazil, or Mexico. Do you know the secret formula to multi-party democracy which constraints rather than encourages corruption? How do we prevent the slums of urban Brazil? What do we do about the Marxist populists of India? If China was democratic, could we pass a tax cut that eliminated taxes for 50%+ of the nation’s population… while shifting the tax burden onto the rich? I don’t know the answers to these questions. If you do, please share.

Justices to the US Supreme Court are appointed for life, insulated from democratic influences. The chairman of the US Federal Reserve might be indirectly democratically appointed… but can you name the last Fed chairman that was replaced after a new political administration came to office? In your rush to refute my claim that these institutions aren’t democratic… you missed the point: why aren’t these claims more democratic? Why isn’t the US Supreme Court democratically elected? Why isn’t the Federal Reserve democratically elected? Why doesn’t the United States government “trust” its highly educated citizens to participate directly when deciding government monetary policy? Why isn’t Roe v. Wade decided by a national election?

Have you ever pondered the question?

We’re getting away from my original point. The Chinese government has done amazingly well in improving the lives of the Chinese people over the past 20 years. For that accomplishment, it deserves applause and support. I think it’s narrow-minded and myopic to assume anything about where China is headed from here. I don’t take it for granted, for a second, that the evolutionary destination for China will look anything like what you’re assuming is the ultimate solution for human society.

22

[quote=“Lord Lucan”]
Making Chinese people feel bad about themselves has been a tool that governments have used for “unity” with the principal target being “goddamn foreigners”. However it has backfired before and it could do again. [/quote]
Well, I hope the pub brought some more coherence to your statement.

Let’s talk about feeling bad. I felt bad, 10-20 years ago, about not having material things. (Not really true; I was perfectly ecstatic watching shediao yingxiong zhuan on my 13" black-white TV.) I feel bad, today, that China is still a third world developing nation where people perform menial physical labor for minimal pay. I feel bad, today, that Chinese professionals get a fraction of international pay while performing the same work. I feel bad, today, that China is polluted, often corrupt, and still filled with injustice.

So… what are you trying to convince me of? That I shouldn’t feel bad about any of the above? And how exactly is the government involved in “making” me feel bad about the above? And in what way are you goddamn foreigners responsible for any of the above?

I personally think you’ve internalized a false caricature of Chinese opinion.

23

Listen, boyfriend, I wear my ignorance on my sleeve- that is why I am not arrogant, hello? Doi. (Sorry, too much time with the little ones). I think the two founding fathers were Jefferson and Madison who were duking it out as to how much to entrust to the common man. Please feel free to recommend good books to me about this. I don’t think the CCP wants to entrust anything to the common man, or even most uncommon men (except those who do what it wants). The world is full of brilliant individuals who are kept forcefully out of decisions affecting their lives. I wish US students were half as good as the hard-working, respectful, smart students of the PRC I have taught. Why can’t China use their brains in governance? These students are not an elite group, as a country Chinese students regularly outperform American students. You know, though, these students are excellent in math and the sciences, but when it comes time for them to do persuasive writing, arguing a point logically and with examples, needing to take all sides into account, they are at a complete loss. Also, please tell me what efforts the CCP makes to get a consensus? Consensus means that there is at least general agreement on what to do. If the government can’t get that agreement, does it then abandon its plan/policy?

24

v,

Maybe it’s time you think about this question: who exactly are the CCP?

I think you have this very fixed archtype in your mind of who they are. A cross between the enforcers from 1984 and the Waffen SS, most likely. I think if you want to have an intelligent discussion about the CCP, you should step back and eliminate those stereotypes out of your mind. Many members of the CCP are the same hard-working, respectful, smart students that you taught; in fact, I think most mainland Chinese feel strongly that describes the central government team in place right now.

IMO, the CCP is probably similar to most political organizations on this planet: some are idealistic men/women any of you would be honored to know personally; some are greedy, thieving bastards; some are just bureaucrats doing a day’s work. And as all human-based organizations tend to do, they change from generation to generation.

The current generation, again IMO, is focused on making China “a better place”. If a clearly superior soution that benefits the Chinese people becomes available, I for one believe they will adopt it. If a better mechanism for conflict resolution and consensus building appears, I for one believe they will adopt that, as well.

You wanted something to read, so I’ll give you a link that adds at least a little perspective about the CPC’s central party school:
dissentmagazine.org/article/?article=418

I don’t want to debate with you the definitions of terms like “arrogance”, and certainly not a generic debate about the rights of the “common man”. I’ll just repeat the same question I asked before. How do you know a democratic China would end up with a system like that of the United States?

What keeps a democratic China from being “like” Brazil, India, or Mexico? Or maybe I should first ask, do you think Brazil, India, or Mexico are desirable political models for China’s development? Are they also countries where the decision-making of the “common man” is leading to desirable results?

25

Why can citizens from all those countries come to the US and fit into our system and become good, productive citizens themselves? Because we have democratic institutions and mechanisms, and the rule of law, even with their imperfections, which any person from any culture can adapt to and participate in (changing). How do these institutions, mechanisms, and the rule of law develop in other countries? Or rather, why do they fail to develop to a high degree when all these countries have smart people who want reform? Because democracy allows for the possibility of power-sharing and groups who benefit from the status quo in those countries you mentioned don’t want their power lessened. The main problem is dealing with the power hoarders, corruption, greed. I don’t think the main problem is that the masses are to backward to adjust to the rule of law. My husband used to talk about Taiwanese first coming to the US and speeding all over the place. After a couple of tickets and a jump in insurance they changed their ways permanently in that regard at least. I’m not saying that democracy in China has to look like exactly like democracy in the US- I hope it looks a great deal better. I read that link. China could start by giving all its students, not just the miniscule number of students in the elite schools, what millions of lazy US students get: a freewheeling exchange of ideas. We have a specific policy on controversial ideas at my high school- no restrictions on topic, but more than one side of the issue must be presented. Our high school graduation test has a persuasive writing section where students have to logically present and support an opinion. They also have to read persuasive writing and write short answers about things like how would such and such and audience react to the author’s opinion, or if the author is making appeals to emotion or logic, etc. Why doesn’t China try that? yinwei tamen pa luan, bu shi ma? What about my consensus question from the last post? If the rulers in China really want to see what Chinese people are capable of- they should take all pressure off of Taiwan and see how democratization unfolds there. Taking off the pressure means letting them be independent in peace without constant threats of violence. And on that note, I like what the professor in the link was saying about sovereignty- it serves the people, the people don’t serve it.

26

[quote=“cctang”][quote=“Lord Lucan”]
Making Chinese people feel bad about themselves has been a tool that governments have used for “unity” with the principal target being “goddamn foreigners”. However it has backfired before and it could do again. [/quote]
Well, I hope the pub brought some more coherence to your statement.

Let’s talk about feeling bad. I felt bad, 10-20 years ago, about not having material things. (Not really true; I was perfectly ecstatic watching shediao yingxiong zhuan on my 13" black-white TV.) I feel bad, today, that China is still a third world developing nation where people perform menial physical labor for minimal pay. I feel bad, today, that Chinese professionals get a fraction of international pay while performing the same work. I feel bad, today, that China is polluted, often corrupt, and still filled with injustice.

So… what are you trying to convince me of? That I shouldn’t feel bad about any of the above? And how exactly is the government involved in “making” me feel bad about the above? And in what way are you goddamn foreigners responsible for any of the above?

I personally think you’ve internalized a false caricature of Chinese opinion.[/quote]

Do you see the way your portrayal of poverty has to be essentially Chinese in its nature and I, a foreigner, couldn’t understand it because I am not Chinese? Can you see that? You have taken a universal thing such as poverty (what do you know of my upbringing?) and made it uniquely Chinese, because you are Chinese, so that anyone who is not Chinese could not possibly understand.

That is exactly what I am talking about.

Actually I don’t want to labour this point because I don’t want to discuss you personally which wouldn’t be fair so I’m trying to make sweeping generalisations. I would make the point again that poverty and the feelings of escape from poverty are universal.

27

Lord Lucan, I can’t see your point here. CCtang is not saying his experience is something you couldn’t understand, he’s saying the government isn’t blaming foreigners for it. While I don’t have any quotes handy, I do remember a lot of PRC Chinese mentioning their history of being exploited by Europeans, the Opium Wars, etc. and being very angry about it. Chinese don’t want to be weak and exploited again. So anti-foreigner feeling does come into play because of that history, and I do believe the CCP has in the past invoked that sad history for its own purposes. All you have to do is look at the ruckus surrounding Chinabounder to see how Chinese national pride and feelings about white foreign males intersect.

28

A long way from the idea that the workers of the world can all make common cause one with another against the owners of the means of production wherever they might be.

Archaic language? Embarrassingly Marxist? Still the official Party line and no more archaic than “you just don’t understand Chinese culture.”

29

Lord Lucan,

The point of my post was to make my position understandable to “foreigners”, not to suggest that my position isn’t understandable. The purpose was to find points of commonality, not to set myself apart. spook and v have at least managed to understand the point without much difficulty, and I have to think that if you got off your soapbox long enough to digest rather than immediately regurgitate… you would as well. In fact, did you actually bother to read the original Guardian article that started this thread? Looks like Jonathan Watts managed to understand, even as a foreigner.

My position is that the reality of the “reform period” in mainland China is under-appreciated by many. So, when you want to talk about “foreigners”, I’d have to include the Taiwanese, HK’ers, and overseas Chinese within that category as well. And since I’m unlikely to think of them as foreigners… let’s just conclude your efforts to put a racial spin on this makes no sense.

v, I agree with you completely about the importance for the rule of law, open discussion, and public supervision of government. The ideal China of my dreams would have every single one of those characteristics. But my point is just that it isn’t clear at all to me that a multi-party election, what I thought you meant by the “US system”, is necessary or sufficient for any nation to achieve those things. There are numerous “democratic” nations with multi-party elections that do not have any of those three things. There are several “non-democratic” societies that happen to have all of those things… Hong Kong and Singapore come to mind.

So, if you’re asking if/when China has the rule of law, public supervision of government, and a more engaged/political student body… I’d tell you that I hope it’s soon. The sooner the better.

30

Even as a foreigner… :unamused:

(I’m prepared to wager Jonathan Watts has forgotten more about China than you will ever know.)

Okay, okay, let’s not fight. But what on earth is the meaning of “even as a foreigner”? Should I tell you that “even as a Chinese person” you appear to have a reasonable understanding of America? Would you like that turn of phrase?

OK. Enough. Won’t mention it again.

31

CC, it’s difficult for me to have discussions with you on this topic because I have never studied political philosophy and all the different systems around the world in depth. So it’s difficult for me, but interesting. It might be boring for you because it sounds like you were probably a polisci major and have thought about these issues inside and out. -#-Question: I have never heard the term ‘public supervision of government’; what does it mean exactly? How does the public supervise if not through multi-party elections? Or are you talking about a specific sector of the public: bureaucrats? technocrats? -@- How does Singapore handle government corruption? Does it all hinge on honest government officials hand picked by Lee Kwan Yew (sp?)? There is a website I visited not long ago, but can’t remember the address of, that talked about corruption among the Singoporean elite- nepotism and that kind of thing. -$- I don’t know that much about Singapore, but my deepest impression is of a government using a heightened form or public humiliation to control its populace. Weird. Says something about how this culture views the human spirit. Teachers always have to deal with issues of control. Just from the perspective of my little micro-level autocracy of the classroom, it’s poor teachers who have to humiliate students to get obedience. -%-Anyway, that’s a little off topic. I’ll just stick with the public supervison vs mulit-party election question.

32

Even as a foreigner… :unamused:

(I’m prepared to wager Jonathan Watts has forgotten more about China than you will ever know.)

Okay, okay, let’s not fight. But what on earth is the meaning of “even as a foreigner”? Should I tell you that “even as a Chinese person” you appear to have a reasonable understanding of America? Would you like that turn of phrase?

OK. Enough. Won’t mention it again.[/quote]

Lord Lucan, fighting(ie the exchange of ideas, even when tempers flare) is good- I hope you keep doing it. And just by looking at CCT’s English, I can see that he has had enough exposure to American life to draw some conclusions. I think he has a different sense than I do of what the average human being is capable of. A citizen in a democracy like the US has a lot of responsibility and it takes a certain kind of familial upbringing as well as formal education to get that kind of citizen. And even though Americans generally speaking don’t reach the ideal of a citizen in a democracy fulfilling all their responsibilities, at least we have this ideal to begin with, that we do approach, and that ideal has helped us develop a country that millions are clamoring to get into (arrogance alert!). I would like to see CCT thinking of not just filling the bellies of his citizens, but developing their minds. I’m not talking about some new age self-actualization goobleygok either. Let’s look at Taiwan. People are actively participating in the democratic process- they are learning. 5 years from now they will be more sophisticated in their thinking and actions because of what they are going through now- they won’t stay stagnant at one stage. I think CCT believes giving people in China even a little bit of power to choose people to represent them in the government would be disastrous. He thinks they are not ready. But the CCP isn’t doing anything to prepare its people to be the citizens that a democracy needs, so it’s huo gai. On the other hand, perhaps developing citizens to live in a democracy is not even on the radar screen of even the most reform-minded of the CCP.

33

Again, Lord Lucan, you’re really doing a far better job of exposing your own biases than challenging mine.

I’m not at all offended by your “turn of phrase”. Yes, “even as a Chinese person”, I have a reasonable grasp of American politics. I’m not a US citizen, I don’t participate in the US political process… and as such, it’s more than fair to assume I have lesser first-hand knowledge than the “average” American.

Jonathan Watts is not a Chinese citizen; I am. Jonathan Watts had been assigned to Japan, and was only reassigned to China by the Guardian in the past 3-4 years. Not only was I born in China, I’ve been there on more or less an annual basis for all 3 decades of my life. If his columns are any indication, his recent trip this summer was his first taste of China outside of the major urban centers; I’ve travelled by bus, train, and plane to many corners of China. If the text of his columns are any indication, he doesn’t speak or read Chinese; I do.

What were you prepared to wager, exactly? How did you want to arrange payment? Or are you just going to slink away from this ludicrous assertion?

34

[quote=“cctang”][quote]
(I’m prepared to wager Jonathan Watts has forgotten more about China than you will ever know.)
[/quote]
Jonathan Watts is not a Chinese citizen; I am. Jonathan Watts had been assigned to Japan, and was only reassigned to China by the Guardian in the past 3-4 years. Not only was I born in China, I’ve been there on more or less an annual basis for all 3 decades of my life. If his columns are any indication, his recent trip this summer was his first taste of China outside of the major urban centers; I’ve travelled by bus, train, and plane to many corners of China. If the text of his columns are any indication, he doesn’t speak or read Chinese; I do.

What were you prepared to wager, exactly? How did you want to arrange payment? Or are you just going to slink away from this ludicrous assertion?[/quote]

That’s more like it! I really did think we were in danger of losing you to the “You foreigners cannot possibly understand Chinese culture” brigade! This is important to me to establish before we get into serious discussion because as you say yourself the points of commonailty are far more important than the things which make the socio-economic development of China different from elsewhere. There’s no point in us just shouting at cross purposes. :wink:

35

[quote=“Lord Lucan”][quote=“cctang”][quote]
(I’m prepared to wager Jonathan Watts has forgotten more about China than you will ever know.)
[/quote]
Jonathan Watts is not a Chinese citizen; I am. Jonathan Watts had been assigned to Japan, and was only reassigned to China by the Guardian in the past 3-4 years. Not only was I born in China, I’ve been there on more or less an annual basis for all 3 decades of my life. If his columns are any indication, his recent trip this summer was his first taste of China outside of the major urban centers; I’ve travelled by bus, train, and plane to many corners of China. If the text of his columns are any indication, he doesn’t speak or read Chinese; I do.

What were you prepared to wager, exactly? How did you want to arrange payment? Or are you just going to slink away from this ludicrous assertion?[/quote]

That’s more like it! I really did think we were in danger of losing you to the “You foreigners cannot possibly understand Chinese culture” brigade! This is important to me to establish before we get into serious discussion because as you say yourself the points of commonailty are far more important than the things which make the socio-economic development of China different from elsewhere. There’s no point in us just shouting at cross purposes. :wink:[/quote]
Ahem. S
li

nk
…

36

[quote=“cctang”]Again, Lord Lucan, you’re really doing a far better job of exposing your own biases than challenging mine.

I’m not at all offended by your “turn of phrase”. Yes, “even as a Chinese person”, I have a reasonable grasp of American politics. I’m not a US citizen, I don’t participate in the US political process… and as such, it’s more than fair to assume I have lesser first-hand knowledge than the “average” American.

Jonathan Watts is not a Chinese citizen; I am. Jonathan Watts had been assigned to Japan, and was only reassigned to China by the Guardian in the past 3-4 years. Not only was I born in China, I’ve been there on more or less an annual basis for all 3 decades of my life. If his columns are any indication, his recent trip this summer was his first taste of China outside of the major urban centers; I’ve travelled by bus, train, and plane to many corners of China. If the text of his columns are any indication, he doesn’t speak or read Chinese; I do.

What were you prepared to wager, exactly? How did you want to arrange payment? Or are you just going to slink away from this ludicrous assertion?[/quote]

He’s at least been to China and so he probably knows more about China than you know about Taiwan.

37

I don’t think you need to worry about “losing me” to any such brigade… although, perhaps you could use a ride out of the “assume all Chinese nationalists are uninformed peasants and/or closet dictator” brigade you seem to have fallen into!

In all seriousness, if you’d read my posts in this (and any other) thread with an open mind, I doubt you could find any implication that foreigners as a class are “incapable” of understanding China, or “unqualified” to speak on Chinese issues. The fact that you thought anything else of me suggests a weakness in your own world view.

[quote=“Doctor Evil”]
He’s at least been to China and so he probably knows more about China than you know about Taiwan.[/quote]
And as far as Doctor Evil goes, in case you haven’t noticed, your line isn’t getting much traction. I think most intelligent people here understand that stepping foot in-country for an instant doesn’t automatically fill your mind with local expertise… nor, as you appear to demonstrate, wisdom. I’m sure I am missing out on part of the picture for having never stepped on Taiwanese soil. Your apparent position, however, that this automatically invalidates any and all of my points about things Taiwan-related is weak indeed.

Besides, in a recent development… I’m now also a Taiwanese husband + son-in-law. If my new in-laws get their way, I’ll be in Taiwan before the end of the year.

38

CCT, do you think your wife and in-laws have the background necessary to be able to vote intelligently in a Taiwan election?

39

Utoh, Lord Lucan, are you going to jump in here and defend all non-American “foreigners” (non-Americans) as passionately as you defended non-Chinese foreigners? Looks like v is suggesting us foreigners might not have the right “familial upbringing” to be citizens in a modern democracy!

v, let me respond to your point… I don’t think you understand my position at all.

Very few are clamoring to get into your country for your political system; that’s a myth perpeturated by the ignorant. In fact, if voting at the ballot box was the purpose for wanting to emigrate to the US, why would tens of millions of Mexicans be fleeing their democracy for a nation where they have no political rights of any kind?

In my opinion, the United States is the land of economic and social opportunity. The United States has built the closest thing to a true meritocracy on this planet: the bright and motivated can work their way to prosperity. There are a million reasons that can be given for this: an amazingly prosperous land devoid of original inhabitants (~cough~), safety and distance from 20th century wars, and a long-standing devotion to rule of law. Some would argue that the political system is also a factor… maybe, but again, I’ll just point out that the political system isn’t apparently having the same magical affect on hundreds of millions of human beings world wide.

I’d like to hear you explaion your position a little more. Do you have specific suggestions on what’s needed for citizens to be “developed” in order to make a successful democracy? You suggested “familial upbringing” and “formal education” as two factors earlier on. Be specific. What exactly about the “familial upbringing” and “formal education” in Mexico, India, and Brazil have made them… well, not a model that I aspire to?

The only concrete proposal I’ve heard from you is “like the US”. What, exactly, does that mean? If you were appointed the general secretary of the Communist Party of China today, what would you do? How do you make China a successful democracy the United States… rather than Mexico x10?

I don’t think I’m being cynical. I’m being realistic. I don’t see “one man/woman, one ballot” as a goal in and of itself. Why would I? I see many examples of nations around the world where every man/woman are given a ballot, and yet remain mired in misery and poverty. Why would I aspire to that?

40

cctang, your observations read like an updated version of Alexis de Tocqueville’s Democracy in America. “Democracy” in the United States today is indeed in a wretched state. I’m not sure if it even qualifies as a democracy any longer because insiders have learned to exploit its loopholes so well that that only the willfully or congenitally ignorant fail to recognize that it’s largely a bread and circuses illusion of self-determination these days.

If I understand your ideal correctly though it’s an updated version of – for want of a better term – the ‘enlightened despot.’ A fairer term I think would be enlightened autocracy.

It’s understandable why intelligent, thoughtful people, given the sorry state of almost all ‘democracies’ in the world today, would chose the enlightened autocracy of the Singapore model over its concurrent alternatives. Any student of history recognizes that when enlightened autocracy works well, it works much better than democracy.

The fundamental flaw in that world view though is that when ‘enlightened’ autocracy works badly, which is more often than not over time, it works spectacularly badly, far worse than democracy even at its lowest ebb. That’s why we stick with the democratic model in the United States rather than succumb to the temptation to surrender the business of government to the few. One need only look honestly at the history of China to see the truth of that.

So the better – wisest – choice really is to, rather than abandoning the heavy burden of self-determination when it’s working badly, find a way to make it right again. I’ve always believed that that’s ultimately true for all human beings and, after having lived and worked in Asia for many years now, am even more confimed in that belief.