Guardian: Concrete paves peasants' long road from poverty

Politics International Politics
41

Utoh, Lord Lucan, are you going to jump in here and defend all non-American “foreigners” (non-Americans) as passionately as you defended non-Chinese foreigners? Looks like v is suggesting us foreigners might not have the right “familial upbringing” to be citizens in a modern democracy!

v, let me respond to your point… I don’t think you understand my position at all.

I had to laugh. If A=B and B=C, then A=C. If your wife and in-laws are Taiwanese, and I have already stated that I think the CCP should lay off the Taiwanese so they can participate in and develop their democracy, implying I believe they have the capacity to learn from their mistakes, then it follows that I think your wife and in-laws have sufficient intelligence to vote in a Taiwan election. They make cast an incorrect vote- like for Soong- but based on where they are now in their evolution as civic-minded citizens (and not knowing them I don’t know how far they are along on the spectrum), I will grant that they are doing the best they can with what they have at the moment(arrogance alert). Now if they have already been living in the US a long time and are US passport holders, I’m assuming they are pretty far along. Even with my imperfect Mandarin, I have had quite a lot of contact with Chinese people of all ages, all backgrounds, and coming from differing areas. I’ve had quite close contact because I taught children in Taiwan for 7 years and I am now the wife of a Taiwanese bringing up 2 daughters and having to run interference between his cultural expectations and mine. His way is more authoritarian, mine is more democratic- even in the littlest things- and I don’t think he is an exception. I would say he is the rule. So my assumption is that people coming out of such an upbringing as my husband’s may not have certain skills needed for a democracy, or may not even value what a democracy gives. That’s where the familial thing came from. The education part I already talked about a lot before. The other points you made I’ll respond to later when I have more time.

42

[quote=“spook”]cctang, your observations read like an updated version of Alexis de Tocqueville’s Democracy in America. “Democracy” in the United States today is indeed in a wretched state. I’m not sure if it even qualifies as a democracy any longer because insiders have learned to exploit its loopholes so well that that only the willfully or congenitally ignorant fail to recognize that it’s largely a bread and circuses illusion of self-determination these days.
[/quote]
spook,

One of my earlier posts in this thread was very critical of American democracy, and in all honesty, I regretted the implications of that post. I’m ultimately a realist/pragmatist, and the obvious observation is: whatever the United States has, it’s working very, very well. Now, I’d also put some historical context on that. I’d point out that probably the most controversial American issues of the 20th century were not decided by “democracy”: the Civil Rights movement, abortion rights… all of these were enabled by the least democratic instutition of them all: the U.S. Supreme court.

But anyways, we’re not debating US politics here. The US system has worked well in the United States for centuries, and I’d be a fool to advocate any modification to the US political system. The point of discussion is China, and what makes sense for China. As a realist/pragmatist, I’ll just point out again that very few poor developing nations have managed to become anything similar to the United States. South Korea and Taiwan, it should be pointed out, built their economic success on the backs of authoritarian regimes. Japan and Singapore have pseudo-democracies that, in practice, are not true pluralistic “multi-party” competitions. Who else is there? Haiti? Brazil? Mexico? India?

Let me make an obvious statement of fact, here: putting a ballot box in every Chinese village tomorrow will not make it the United States.

43

v,

I without a doubt believe my wife and in-laws have the background to vote “intelligently” in a Taiwanese election. In fact, like most Taiwanese in the 21st century, my in-laws can be very much obsessed with elections.

But you’re asking the wrong question, because you have the wrong understanding of my belief. It’s not an “intelligence” or “upbringing” or “education” issue at all that keeps me from advocating throwing a ballot box in every Chinese village. No, I don’t think my fellow Chinese are stupid (although it’s a statement of fact that many remain sadly poor educated). But as many Chinese do, I absolutely believe that it is the system which determines results… not the good will of people.

Why is it that intelligent, hard-working people might suffer in poverty in some countries… but as soon as relocated to the United States, they’re able to thrive economically? Did they become more intelligent or harder working just by stepping across the border? For that matter, how did the Chinese become so much more prosperous between 1975 and 2005? Did we become more intelligent? I think the answer to both questions is ‘no’. Our lives are all very much determined by system we live in. Society is a finely tuned machine; 1.3 billion people trying to step in what they think of as the right direction isn’t enough… if it were, poverty world-wide wouldn’t have increased between 1950 and 2005 (according to the United Nations, outside of China).

This is what ‘luan’ is. It isn’t exactly some bizarre or provincial fear of chaos and anarchy. It’s more a fear that the the gears of the national machine get some gum stuck in the middle, or maybe the chain falls off entirely. For generations of Chinese, it’s been given for granted that it doesn’t matter how hard you work or how smart you are: if you live in a country that does not give you the opportunity to succeed, you will not succeed. I’ve mostly talked about economic parameters, but absolutely the same extends to politics. This is also why, as a Chinese parent, we take such (sometimes ridiculous) pride in our children… while also disciplinging them harshly. We see them as being products of “our” system. If they succeed, it’s absolutely a testiment to my direct wisdom. If they fail, I should be humiliated. Whether their personalities were “good” is, really, irrelevant.

So, let’s not talk about good individuals… talk to me about a system that I can install in China today that’s guaranteed to give us our desired results.

By the way, from today’s press: timesonline.co.uk/article/0, … 37,00.html

I thought this quote was excellent:

Doesn’t that make sense? Why shouldn’t we do this on an experimental, scientific basis? Why shouldn’t we wait to figure out exactly which system will work, before we run head-long into the adoption of a political system that has already failed for billions of people in developed nations world-wide?

44

A little more from Wen Jiabao’s interview. I swear I hadn’t read this before making my comments above, but I’m a little flattered how well they match :wink:.

timesonline.co.uk/article/0, … 07,00.html

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“The power of a government comes from the people,” said Wen. Didn’t Mao say power comes from a gun? Wen should have said, ‘the power of the Chinese people comes from us, the self-annointed government, and we decide when they are ready for that power.’ That would have been more accurate. Still, I don’t want CCT to think he hasn’t given me a more nuanced view of China. I admire and acknowledge the patriotism and expertise of those people in the CCP who have brought a better standard of material living to the people of China. On the other hand I despise those people in the CCP who won’t leave Taiwan alone- who continue to threaten its people with violence- especially those Taiwanese who have no foreign passport getaway. I despise those people in the CCP who flood Tibet with Han Chinese hoping to breed out Tibetan culture. I despise those people in the CCP who charge the family of the executed for the bullet that goes through their loved one’s brain. If the people I despise ever win out over the people I admire, I hope the Chinese will have progressed far enough to successfully revolt against them and not repeat their mistakes. Right now as the ‘system’ stands, revolt is the only way to get rid of them. PS I also admire Wen’s speech writer- very moving.

46

[quote=“Jive Turkey”]Ahem. S
li

nk
…[/quote]

HAHAHA! But seriously, I just wanted to labour the point that often it is the people outside China looking in that know better what’s really going on in terms of politics. I would also agree with cctang that long-term exposure to China (living there) and contact with Chinese people prepared to tell you what they really feel is essential to understanding China. I would wager most Chinese people are as cynical as I am, and not mindless automatons at all, which is how I appear to be accused of portraying them.

Utoh, Lord Lucan, are you going to jump in here and defend all non-American “foreigners” (non-Americans) as passionately as you defended non-Chinese foreigners? Looks like v is suggesting us foreigners might not have the right “familial upbringing” to be citizens in a modern democracy![/quote]

I don’t agree with her point, but I know nothing about Americans in America. I would assume most Americans sit around on their fat asses watching TV and scratching their balls and not thinking about a whole pile of anything - like the people in my country. Or any reasonably well-off western “democracy”. They certainly aren’t thinking about why the founding fathers were so careful to make America a republic and not a democracy, or what inverted yield curves might mean for 20th century macroeconomic policy.

47

More accurately, Mao said power grows from the barrel of a gun. If you read the quote in context, Mao still refers to the “gun” as a necessary tool… he’s not claiming force is enough for legitimacy. It’s a subtle difference, but it is there.

But I will agree with the second part of your statement. The Communist Party was borne out of the belief that it needed to do something in order to free the Chinese people from a psychological, economic, and cultural pit. This is a Party created around the belief that it was their sacred responsibility was to guide, to create change (revolution), and to educate the people. Look up the lyrics to the Chinese national anthem. This is a Party that always believed they were more enlightened. I think any Party member would have to admit that “leading role” will end, eventually; that the Party will build a nation of citizens as ‘wise’ as the Party is. And yes, the Party believes it has the right/authority to judge when that moment is there.

And as far as all the rest of what you said… I’m very pleased you have a more nuanced view. Let me also say that I believe in the proper thread, I could also give you a much more nuanced view about Tibet, Taiwan, and certainly Chinese capital punishment as well. On the Tibet issue, for example… were you aware China has an effective affirmative action policy for minorities in China that puts similar policies in the United States to shame? But I don’t want to hijack this thread. Let’s leave those other discussions to some future thread.

[quote]
PS I also admire Wen’s speech writer- very moving.[/quote]If you look at the Times reporter’s personal account of the interview, you’ll see there was no speech writer… these questions/answers (and the quoted poems) were off the cuff. The Chinese leadership almost never have a need to give public speeches; after all, they never campaign. To reach their positions, they had to be convincing intellectuals in front of their peers. I for one believe the Chinese leadership truly is very well-read and well-spoken.

48

CCT, First, I’m not knowledgeabe enough to offer an idea for a system for China. Second, it rubs me the wrong way that the Chinese should be handed any kind of system- they need to demand what they want- they need to follow leaders that they trust. (If China had a free exchange of ideas, maybe more progress would be made on this front). Your view of the Chinese people is too passive. Third, the individual is important, not just the system. You even just mentioned why. An individual’s psychology/cultural make up (read educational/familial upbringing) can hold them back. The reason why immigrants who come to the US fit in so well to our system is not just the system itself- it’s because the system is composed of individuals who by and large will follow its tenets even if no one is forcing them- it permeates the culture at the level of the individual.

Do you count yourself as one of the self-anointed, enlightened ones that decides when China is ready for ?more? democracy? Well, I just anointed myself as being superior to you both morally and intellectually, and if I had firepower behind me, I could shut you up no matter how wrong you thought I was and no matter how many (unarmed) people agreed with you.

And as for Wen’s sweet tongue- I was impressed. A little wussy with the poetry stuff, but he’s good. Very good. His lie about where the power of government in China comes from ( you acknowledged what he said was not true in the CCP’s view) sounded so American- san min zhu yi and all that. Actually, getting back to the above paragraph, since I was raised in a democracy, have more compassion than you, and have confidence in myself intellectuallly, it is people like me who are really more more qualified than the CCP to lead democratization in China. Oops! I just anointed myself again! Now let me lay some good American poetry on you: Oops!..I did it again / anointed myself /got lost in the thread / Oh baby, baby / Oops!..I know/ I can rule / An intellectual jewel / I’m not that competent :rainbow:

49

I think Americans by and large have a complex, an overwhelming obsession with government and its powers. I guess it’s just part of the education system and your familial upbringing.

v, who decides when the United States is ready for a higher interest rate? Who decides when the United States is ready for abortion, and when it is not? It’s not you, the average citizen.

Those types of decisions are made by appointed professionals who, after decades of education and training, taking into account the best information possible… make the call. So, why should it be any different when it comes to the question of whether China is ready for political reform?

Yes, of course I recognize there’s a potential conflict of interest. Will the Chinese leadership be prepared to “reform” themselves out of power? Well… we’ll see. The trends are promising. The previous leaders (Jiang Zemin) retired when the time came. What does Hu Jintao and Wen Jiabao have to gain from maintaining a death grip on Chinese political power?

PS. San Minzu yi = san min zhu yi. You’ve been hanging around too many southerners and that darn inability to pronounce the ‘h’ :slight_smile:.

50

I think Americans by and large have a complex, an overwhelming obsession with government and its powers. I guess it’s just part of the education system and your familial upbringing.

v, who decides when the United States is ready for a higher interest rate? Who decides when the United States is ready for abortion, and when it is not? It’s not you, the average citizen.

Those types of decisions are made by appointed professionals who, after decades of education and training, taking into account the best information possible… make the call. So, why should it be any different when it comes to the question of whether China is ready for political reform?

Yes, of course I recognize there’s a potential conflict of interest. Will the Chinese leadership be prepared to “reform” themselves out of power? Well… we’ll see. The trends are promising. The previous leaders (Jiang Zemin) retired when the time came. What does Hu Jintao and Wen Jiabao have to gain from maintaining a death grip on Chinese political power?

PS. San Minzu yi = san Minzu yi. You’ve been hanging around too many southerners and that darn inability to pronounce the ‘h’ :slight_smile:.[/quote]

CCT, I gave you that awesome post with the Brittney inspired poetry and all you could come back with was this? It was late, right? The thing about the American obsession- lame. The thing about the Fed and the Supreme Court- lame again. I used the word “self-anointed” and all you have to counter it is “appointed”- but you left out ‘appointed by democratically elected representatives’. I as an average citizen don’t have the time or the expertise to be involved in every little thing. That’s why I try to get people who are better than me elected. I think it shows the strength of our system that Alan Greenspan was Fed Chairman for so long- but just because he was ‘appointed’ you can’t compare that to your system of the ‘self-anointed’. I knew Bush was going to appoint Supreme Court judges- that was one of the reasons I voted against him. If he had nominated a former Nazi, do you think the Congress would have approved him? Hello? Heard of checks and balances? And what does anyone have to gain from keeping a death grip on power you ask? Must be sumpin’ cuz history is replete with examples. I spelled the san min zhu yi right- this program must a been hacked by the KMT cuz it didn’t come out like I typed it. I have the ROC national anthem permanently imprinted on my brain from having heard it before movies in Taiwan so many times back in the day. It’s such a beautiful, sad song. It starts out with san min zhu yi… I just loved the music and the different films that went with it. I’m a sucker for that patriotic stuff, even when it’s not my patria. Anyway, I know you’re busy, and you must be getting tired. If you have time, could you please come up with a more creative, entertaining, insightful post, or have we reached the limit with this last one?

51

v,

You got me. I am confused as to the “point” of your posts, and my last post was a bit of a stretch.

I get the feeling we’re here for two different reasons. I don’t really use this forum as a source of “entertainment”, per se. I do enjoy being challenged intellectually, and I certainly know that my own pool of knowledge increases through informed discussion. Any “points” I score along the way are purely coincidental, and irrelevant to me. I caught the Britney reference… and yes, that was probably my hint this conversation has really run its useful course.

52

CCT, if you can’t see the difference between how appointed people (like Supreme Court judges) are different from people in the CCP who were never appointed from democratically elected representatives- you are either being intellectually dishonest or you have the same powers of logic as a poster who told me that since we all prostitute ourselves to some extent in our work, it was OK to see prostitutes, since we are all basically doing the same thing. Both of you don’t see the inequivalencies. I like to be challenged too, but you’re not challenging me very much. You are just more widely read, that’s it. Sorry Charlie. :unamused:

53

Uhm but in practice the President that nominates the supreme court justice is not democratically elected either. The Electoral College can just ignore their constituent’s request on a whim, which has happened in the past. Also the public does not select the committee members that approves of the judge, when the committee is formed.

Not to mention what is the turn out rate in the USA these days for every public office? Less than 25% of all voters participate in every election available to them in a calendar year. If you view the statistic in light of how many eligible voters actual register to vote, the participation rate is pathetic in the USA.

So in my mind I don’t see much difference between the PRC and USA in terms of citizen participation in government. If one is interested in politics, the infrastructure is there for them to pursue a career in it.

I would have faith in a government that could bring double-digit economic growth every year.

54

No mature economy can grow at double digit rates. And any developign economy can with a decent business environment.

This has to be the most intellectually lazy statement ever made on Forumosa.

Both CCT and AC ask yourselves this? In which country would you like to go up against a person wealthier and better connected than you, a corrupt official, a powerful company that had cheated you, a company that wanted to destroy a pristine area of nature? Hell, which country would you rather be an accused terrorist? In Hamdan v Rumsfeld the courts overturned the ruling on a terrorist because the tribunals set up by the president did not satisfy the requirements of a just court. Would that happen in China? To even ask the question is to answer it. NO!

Supreme Courts usually act as a brake on mob democracy and abuses of executive power. Democracy, as we all learn in grade school, is not always rule of the majority. If the majority decide they want to kick the Chinese out of California it ain’t gonna happen. That is why we have constitutions, and charter of rights, and so on. These uphold the rights of minorities, of women, and the powerless, and poorly represented. Actually they uphold the rights of all, with equal weight being given to the poor and the rich.

Modern democracies have to have checks and balances. No they are not perfect but they are so far in advance of authoritarian governments as you have in China that there can be no comparison. America, or Canada, or britain, differ not in degree but in kind with what you have.

You’re sounding like some naive immigrant who sees crime in America, who sees corruption, who sees that the race is not always to the swift, nor rewards to the just, and thinks, ah, it is just like back home. And then he writes a scathing article in the newspaper and no one comes to take him away and he starts to see the bigger picture.

55

In my personal dealings in business, I would say both countries are more less the same when it comes to encounting corruption and irregular bias with government agencies.

I would say the USA it is probably easier to start a business. Whereas in PRC there are higher overheads for “foreigners” like myself to start up a business.

It is really is a wash most of the times.

I don’t know, the USA had the “Chinese Exclusion Act,” “Japanese Interment” and now “Muslim secret court.”

There is definitely a sense of self-segregation going on these days, especially in State with 40% or more minorities.

I’ve gone to White flight neighborhoods to establish business and been subject to some rather interesting remarks. If not for my good looks, charm, and great sense of humor the situation could have turned for the worst.

When I’m in China doing business I never get the feeling like I’m going to be attacked. Even when it becomes known that I’m an overseas Chinese among a group of working class locals.

56

That’s absolute nonsense and you know it. Every agency that studies or monitors or rates countries according to the level of their corruption puts mainland china very high on the list and the US very low. Don’t play cute. You’re either completely disingenuous or you haven’t a clue what you are talking about.

I knew you would fall on those. Yes, they had them. They would not pass now as we saw with Hamdam v Rumsfeld. Sure racism and corruption were far worse in the past, but China is not even as good as we were in the 30s, let alone now.

And remember, there is a huge fight in the US now about the military tribunals.

Interesting remarks, well that is interesting. Care to elaborate. Did you take it to court? Do you have any doubt that if you did the racists would be hung out to dry if they had done anything violent?

57

I should add, which government would you rather have when the next H5N1-type pandemic breaks out? :unamused:

58

No different than the government that was suppose to monitor and contain AIDS and Mad Cow disease.

59

Sorry AC, Mucha Man left you in the dust. I can’t believe smart guys like you and CCT really believe the crap you are saying. But I don’t want to speculate on psychological reasons or some shady motive for the way you guys post, so that just leaves ignorance as the cause. AC, please redeem yourself with some poetry like you posted before- that was amusing. Your wittiness saves you. Mucha Man keep up the demolition at every possible opportunity.

60

I’m rubber and you’re glue… :loco: