Hardcore Foreign Run Buxibans

[j99l88e77]

@Bassman

[quote=“j99l88e77”]I don’t go that far. Part of teaching and learning is putting it there in front of them and letting them decide what they’re going to do with it. Just like the real world.

[/quote]

What? Do you follow your students home? Screw that. Besides, it’s not my responsiblity to assign tape/CD listening. That’s my boss’s department. I teach, I give them homework, they are tested, and given monthly reports. I leave it up to each student whether they want to study more or less. That’s what I mean by letting them decide.

Guess it depends on how good the teacher is. My students learn quite quickly because I speak, read and write Korean. I tell them right away what a sentence means and break down the grammar patterns for them. I guess if you can’t do that, it’s more difficult.

[Bassman]

@j99l88e77

[quote=“Bassman”][quote=“j99l88e77”]I don’t go that far. Part of teaching and learning is putting it there in front of them and letting them decide what they’re going to do with it. Just like the real world.

[/quote]

What? Do you follow your students home?

Don’t need to. The parents follow, most parents, what we say.

Screw that.

nice.

[quote]
Besides, it’s not my responsiblity to assign tape/CD listening. That’s my boss’s department.[/quote]

Forgive me if it sounds like you’re not interested in the big picture of what goes on. Sounds very much like a us and them mentality.

Believe it or not, but foreign and local staff can, and should, work together.

I teach, I give them homework, they are tested, and given monthly reports. I leave it up to each student whether they want to study more or less. That’s what I mean by letting them decide.

And if the quality remains high and there aren’t huge gaps in abiltiy between students in the same class, well… more power to you. Most students, however, would do less.

Guess it depends on how good the teacher is.

I could, and do, teach circles around most teachers that I’ve met.

My students learn quite quickly because I speak, read and write Korean. I tell them right away what a sentence means and break down the grammar patterns for them. I guess if you can’t do that, it’s more difficult.[/quote]

I can do that, not in Korean though. That doesn’t make me a better teacher. I’ve seen crap teachers that can do all that and more, but they were still crap.

[j99l88e77]

From your assumptions, I have come to the conclusion that yes, you are evil.

[bob]

@Bassman

[quote]My students learn quite quickly because I speak, read and write Korean. I tell them right away what a sentence means and break down the grammar patterns for them. I guess if you can’t do that, it’s more difficult.

I can do that, not in Korean though. That doesn’t make me a better teacher. I’ve seen crap teachers that can do all that and more, but they were still crap.[/quote]

It seems to me that if a Native English speaker can discuss the grammar of his own language in the first language of his students then he has risen somewhat from the level of “crap”.

[puiwaihin]

@bob

It seems to me that if a Native English speaker can discuss the grammar of his own language in the first language of his students then he has risen somewhat from the level of “crap”.

To me that depends on whether or not the person can actually teach the grammar to students, not if he can simply discuss the grammar in the students’ native tongue.

I definitely believe there is an advantage to being able to use the student’s L1, but I don’t think that necessarily makes you a good teacher in and of itself. That is certainly an additional qualification, but just like being a native speaker of the target language and having a TESOL certificate don’t necessarily mean you are a good teacher, being proficient in the second language doesn’t either.

I agree with Bassman here. You can be able to use the students’ mother tongue in class and still not be good at helping students acquire the language. On the other hand, I don’t think anyone here is saying it can’t be a great advantage to be able to.

Still, Bassman probably is evil.

[Bassman]

@j99l88e77

From your assumptions, I have come to the conclusion that yes, you are evil.

I will wear that comment from j99l88e77 as a medal of honor.

[ImaniOU]

@j99l88e77

I use a notebook for that and they have to write words and sentences five times for homework. Those are checked quickly and if there are errors, they do it over again for homework on top of the newly assigned homework. The quicker they get things right, the higher the reward. And rewards are immediately given.

What exactly are your students learning by copying a sentence five times?

And what rewards are you giving your students?

I’m bracing myself for the shudder.

[Brendon]

The meat and potatoes of their classes is the Question Around the Room. In this exercise, first all of the students must stand up, then one student makes a question based on a certain grammar pattern. The student the asks another student who must answer and in turn make another question which will be answered by another student. It continues until all of the students have asked and answered a question based on whatever sentence pattern being practiced.

… the confidence to control a class of up to 30 kids …

Thirty kids. Thirty seconds per question, if they all get it right first time. Fifteen minutes, minimum. During which each kid has asked and answered a total of one question.

What a strangely incompetent thing to boast about.

[maoman]

Not surprisingly, most foreign bosses of buxibans have years of experience teaching in this market, and they know what works in the classroom, and how to manage the bottom line, which is obviously important. You can be the best teacher in the world, with a programme based on the best teaching theories in the world, but how fast will the kids improve if the parents don’t sign up for a second semester?

At my school, I employ three assistant teachers. They are university-age kids who have started with the programme over ten years ago, and now they are helping teach the system they learned under. They are happy with our “hard-ass” system, and feel that it has been effective. Their only concern when my wife and I took over the school was whether we would change the programme or not - I assured them that we would not. They are happy, and the students are happy. That makes me happy, and someday, hopefully, prosperous.

[system]

I’d have to be on ImaniOU’s (and perhaps even Maoman’s) side on this one. This discussion seems to be confusing quality with profitability. It appears that what is being called “hard-core” is in fact the formula acceptable to a large number of parents that allows for the most students in one class to aquire a level of English acceptable to parents.

[puiwaihin]

@tinman

I’d have to be on ImaniOU’s (and perhaps even Maoman’s) side on this one. This discussion seems to be confusing quality with profitability. It appears that what is being called “hard-core” is in fact the formula acceptable to a large number of parents that allows for the most students in one class to aquire a level of English acceptable to parents.

But I’d argue that it isn’t the level of English the parents are attracted to. It is the style of discipline and the sort of instruction that looks like it is serious that they like. The results are disputable.

Just as some parents feel that schools that play lots of games are best because they interest the children, some parents think that a no nonsense approach is best. In both cases the parents are impressed without really being able to guage the true efficacy of either approach.

I haven’t seen Maoman’s, DB’s, or Imani’s schools, so I am not commenting on their specific situations. But the ones I have seen that fit the “hard core” profile in the blog don’t do a better job overall. They teach some things better but other things suffer. I gave a more detailed post earlier that was more specific.

[system]

puiwaihin,
I agree with you 100%. What I had hoped to say was that ‘market excellence’ probably has little to do with efficacy of instruction, even though financially successful schools always justify themselves in these terms.

[tempogain]

@tinman

I’d have to be on ImaniOU’s (and perhaps even Maoman’s) side on this one. This discussion seems to be confusing quality with profitability. It appears that what is being called “hard-core” is in fact the formula acceptable to a large number of parents that allows for the most students in one class to aquire a level of English acceptable to parents.

this is basically true, however you’re talking about the kind of parents who are honestly concerned that their children learn english and are willing to put in the time and effort to support them. these people insist on their children attaining a good level, and that is what this kind of system can almost guarantee. even kids who aren’t as smart will get there as long as they do the practice.

[system]

Tempo Gain
I’m not sure what you mean by “attaining a good level”. While Maoman is a great guy and I am sure a responsible teacher of children, I hope you (and he) can understand my caution at accepting his word alone that his teachers “know what works in the classroom”. It could be true, but then it may just be advertizing. While there are many other buxiban operators and teachers who make the same or even stronger claims, I am equally hesitant to accept their claims for exactly the same reason.

My experience with parents of children studying English is that many of them have limited understanding of what ‘success’ in the language classroom is. In fact, many of them can not speak English; hence, the need for Mandarin-speaking foreign teachers in what is called “hard-core buxibans”.

My admittedly limited experience observing “hard-core buxibans” indicates a somewhat different idea of ‘good’ attainment. The best example comes from my wife’s close friend who once told me that he has taken kids “from nothing to fluency”. Accepting his definition of fluency (which I do not), the drop-out rate once kids hit junior high school and exam preparation time is quite noticable. The kids he is left with are quite clearly the most successful of his children’s classes with lesser students having quit. But I am quite sure that he did not mean when when he used the term “fluent”.

I doubt there is even one single buxiban in Taiwan that has even tried to sell, “the best teacher in the world, with a programme based on the best teaching theories in the world.” Having given up on that, the next question is will parents tolerate one more child in the class? And if they won’t, what do you have to do to get them to accept this? Could it be a Mandarin-speaking teacher? Homework that is laborious? Constant pronunciation coaching?

[tempogain]

well, good means “good” lol. not fluent.

they will have a basic conversational abilty with very good listening comprehension. they will express themselves in complete, clearly spoken sentences.

they will be able to expresss themselves very well in a simple written essay.

they will know a lot of grammar intuitively.

they will be set for tests they take in high school, entrance exams, proficiency exams.

they will have a very sound base for their future studies, especially if they immigrate or study overseas.

they will have gained important public speaking and organizational skills, among others.

they will have done this in 4 hours of classes a week, plus practice time.

i feel that is good. it is not some sort of magical acheivement or the result of a godlike instructor, just experience and common sense.

it is a system designed for grade school kids and plays to their strengths. certainly high school students will often drop out as they don’t have the time for the practice week in week out. however they will have learned a lot by that time. i don’t really get your point about the significance of that.

i resent your implications about “one extra student.” i have turned down such opportunites and the money that goes along with it countless times when i felt it was not in the best interests of a class of students in general. from day one i have only tried to teach the best i could and let the other things happen as they would. never even has the thought “what can i do to get parents to accept one more student” even occurred to me.

the bottom line is that my system works. it is not the only way or probably even the best way but it is a way and a good way.

[Durins_Bane]

[quote=“Tempo Gain”]well, good means “good” lol. not fluent.

they will have a basic conversational abilty with very good listening comprehension. they will express themselves in complete, clearly spoken sentences.

they will be able to expresss themselves very well in a simple written essay.

they will know a lot of grammar intuitively.

they will be set for tests they take in high school, entrance exams, proficiency exams.

they will have a very sound base for their future studies, especially if they immigrate or study overseas.

they will have gained important public speaking and organizational skills, among others.

they will have done this in 4 hours of classes a week, plus practice time.

I feel that is good. it is not some sort of magical acheivement or the result of a godlike instructor, just experience and common sense.

it is a system designed for grade school kids and plays to their strengths. certainly high school students will often drop out as they don’t have the time for the practice week in week out. however they will have learned a lot by that time. I don’t really get your point about the significance of that.

I resent your implications about “one extra student.” I have turned down such opportunites and the money that goes along with it countless times when i felt it was not in the best interests of a class of students in general. from day one I have only tried to teach the best I could and let the other things happen as they would. never even has the thought “what can I do to get parents to accept one more student” even occurred to me.

the bottom line is that my system works. it is not the only way or probably even the best way but it is a way and a good way.[/quote]

I couldn’t of said it better myself, even if I was drunk.

Tempo Gain…right on!

[Bassman]

Man, I think that’s what we all mean and all want.

So, erm, why were we talking about Nazi English schools again?

[j99l88e77]

Yeah, I don’t know. After all the good things I said about my job, my boss goes and tells me to go faster with one of my classes. That’s a class with two boys for only 2 hours/week and one of them was absent 2 of the last 4 classes.

I said, “Why?”

Him: “Because they are older elementary.”

Me: “They can’t speak English. I’m teaching them phonics. What’s ‘go faster???’ Don’t tell me that.”

Then he was on the phone. Then I became angry teacher. Good work, boss.

What the hell is “go faster”? I can understand “slow down”, but “go faster”? Speed English at 2 hrs/week. Yeah, right.

Ahhhhh!

[system]

Durin’s Bane,
I’m a little confused when you say

I couldn’t of said it better myself,

Are you agreeing with the comment from Tempo Gain appearing directly above yours that says,

the bottom line is that my system works. it is not the only way or probably even the best way but it is a way and a good way.

Or are you agreeing with what you said back on page 1 of the thread

@Durins Bane

[quote=“jdsmith”][quote=“Durins Bane”]Is there really any other way?

Good question. [/quote]
It wasn’t really a question. It was more of a statement saying, “There is no other way”.[/quote]

[j99l88e77]

There’s just no way these kids are going to learn appropriately or to the expectations of parents if they’re only getting 3 to 4 hours of instruction a week. They need a more of less total immersion. We, as teachers, can do the best we can. Everyone has different methods.

I was watching this Korean show where this bad-ass teacher or principal or something walks up and down the hallway with a big stick. All the kids are freeking out. He finally chooses one class and randomly picks a student. He then says a word in Korea. The student says the word in English and then psycho buddy says, “Spelling”. The kid gets it wrong and he whacks his hand about 6 times. The last student he did this to successfully got about 10 words in a row correct but was stumped on the spelling of the 11th word. So he wacks her hands about 5 times. Thing is, when these kids were saying the English words, I could hardly understand what they were saying. Apparently their pronunciation passed the test.

Quite obviously these Koreans don’t know what the hell they are doing.

I was in French immersion. So my first 3 years of elementary school were total immersion. No English class (and then, only one class) until grade 4. Even then it was difficult for most students to express themselves in French by junior high. Just goes to show the uselessness of 3 hours/wk.

Good thing about total immersion is that it does provide a good base to pick up/improve the language later. Lets’ face it, the ones that speak anywhere near half-decent English have lived in an English-speaking country for some time. The others speak shit English. No matter how much effort we put in.

I always tell students and parents that if you really want to learn English, go to Canada or The States.