j99l88e77,
I’m not as dark about the whole thing as you are. This so-called “hard-core method” is probably a reasonably effective way to get predictable results if you have 20 to 30 kids in a class for a couple of hours a week. After all, most parents that I’ve been exposed to are happy enough if their kid can answer the couple of questions fired at them by the white guy on the bus his or her mom has forced to talk to them. The problem is that everyone’s hiding behind the “we offer quality education” banner when it’s clear that this can’t be the case. It’s a MacDonald’s of language teaching, but if you’re hungry and you can’t afford or appreciate Dan Ryan’s, MacD’s isn’t such a bad deal.
Well, I’m not dark about anything. If what keeps the parents happy is knowing some basic English phrases then so be it. But if they want their kids to have an excellent command of the language, it’s another story.
Anyway, I always assume that parents want their children to get the best out of class. No need to rush anything because then all you got are a bunch of kids that say, “fanano” instead of “banana”.
Yeah, that’s a helpful, viable suggestion. 
Yeah, that’s a helpful, viable suggestion. [/quote]
I thought so.
What’s wrong with your eyes?
[quote=“tinman”]Durin’s Bane,
I’m a little confused when you say
Are you agreeing with the comment from Tempo Gain appearing directly above yours that says,
Or are you agreeing with what you said back on page 1 of the thread
Good question. 
[/quote]
It wasn’t really a question. It was more of a statement saying, “There is no other way”.[/quote][/quote]
I can see the confusion and my apologies. My statement about “there is no other way” was made before I really understood what you northern folks meant by “hard-core”. Once I began to see understand a bit more how “hard-core” is defined I changed my point-of-view. I mistakely confused the idea of having some sort of quality and standards with this concept of “hard-core”.
There is one “hard-core” school here in Kaohsiung. I wouldn’t have labeled them “hard-core” but rather “fucking warped”. They don’t allow their teachers to stand in one place more than a minute…that kind of stuff.
I completely agree with what Tempo Gain wrote in his post that I quoted from.
Again, my apologies for being wishy-washy. I just have a clearer picture of what is going on now. I would dearly like to visit some schools up north to see what kind of stuff they are doing.
That’s a fair answer, and I can completely agree that
[quote=“Durins Bane”] There is one “hard-core” school here in Kaohsiung. I wouldn’t have labeled them “hard-core” but rather “f***ing warped”. They don’t allow their teachers to stand in one place more than a minute…that kind of stuff.
I completely agree with what Tempo Gain wrote in his post that I quoted from.
[/quote]
thanks, and yes, that fairly describes a number of such schools up here as well. some are not quite that but a lot meaner than me. as was alluded to very kindly earlier in the thread i am no nonsense but try to always keep everything positive.
I suppose that now I understand your position better, I owe DB and TG an apology.
Oh no, you did nothing to warrant giving an apology.
Even if you did, I am pretty thick skinned about stuff. In fact, please feel free to tell me to “(insert your own verb here) off” anytime you feel it is necessary. 
It’s just that I misunderstood you, but in hind sight, you were perfectly clear.
[quote=“Durins Bane”]
Oh no, you did nothing to warrant giving an apology.
Even if you did, I am pretty thick skinned about stuff. In fact, please feel free to tell me to “(insert your own verb here) off” anytime you feel it is necessary. 
[/quote]
couldn’t have said it any better myself, even if i was drunk.
I’ve found out a little bit more about the origins of my school and the programme I inherited. The previous owner learned from John Coomber, who was working for Michael Roberts, who again owned the first Koubei School in Dinghao. Mike sold that school to David McCall, who renamed it MoDaWei (his Chinese name) and made literally millions of dollars and retired when he was 45. John Coomber left and started his own school in a different part of town.
The founder of the original Tomcat worked for David - but took about 400 of David’s students to start his own school. Since then this mode of operation has poliferated with dozens of teachers following this “method” in order to found many offshoots of MoDaWei and Tomcat.
If anyone has any more to add to the history of Hard-core Foreign Run Buxibans, I’d love to hear it…
The way I heard it, (from David himself back in 1994) was that David and Michael knew each other and opened a school together. I think he mentioned something about Karen Hess, too. (Maybe he just knew her.) Anyway, eventually, the two developed slightly different ideas about what and how they wanted to teach and decided to go their own way. I also heard that the way the program developed was not the way David actually intended (he had a masters in elementary education), but actually evolved from different people over the years. I actually worked for one of those schools for a time and it was a “super” hard-core system (one that would actually encourage teachers to make students cry), but with little substance (e.g. making kids memorize a bunch of sentences that looked and sounded really good, but change a verb and and the students wouldn’t know what you were talking about). That was back in the days when there wasn’t much of a choice of good schools, students and parents attitudes were different, and no one was going to mess with the system because so many parents liked it. I hear now that some of the “hard-core” schools are more student friendly, with the same emphasis on pronunciation, grammar and student responsibility, but more interest in students’ having the ability to understand the material and express themselves while other “hard-core” schools are still just a show for the parents.
Yeah, that’s a helpful, viable suggestion. [/quote]
I’ve met a couple of Taiwanese university students who attended Yale’s English Language Institute Summer Program and was amazed at their progress in 6 weeks. I’d like to know how Yale does it. Program will set you back almost NT100,000.
Yes, I saw that in one of the schools I observed. The school’s method doesn’t match my own beliefs about how children learn, but from what I saw he cared about the kids and he was trying to educate them and not just make robots out of them.
So I guess there are “good hardcore schools” and “EVIL hardcore schools”.
Looks great.
The fees give you a clue; the program looks like serious time and money has been/is spent on its development. High fees also make for very committed students (I’m not saying that only expensive courses attract hard workers, but generally I think there is a connection; if you pay a lot for something, you tend to value it more). The teachers are well paid, the school makes a hefty profit; all stakeholders have a high level of financial commitment, which is probably the bottom line in why its sucessful.
[quote=“puwaihin”]In the schools I’ve seen the program is extremely teacher centered. There is a lot of individual practice, but in a classroom with 30+ students each student speaks once in 15 minutes time with the exception of choral repetition.
Instruction focuses on only a couple of the senses. Very little (I saw none) visual or kinisthetic activity is used. Very little of the students’ experience or background is utilized in teaching.
Learning is generally about the language, not aquiring the language. Students will repeat a rule a dozen times and can tell you why something is wrong by analyzing it, but when they start producing they are full of errors violating those exact same rules. After a few months of the same drills they’ll eventually start to monitor out the errors, but no faster than at some of the larger chain schools.
Students learn accuracy, but at the cost of fluency. [/quote]
Yeah, man, I work at one of ‘those’ schools and I totally agree. They’re so teacher-centered, they don’t even realize what the expression means because they’re not even aware that anything else exists. I try to mix it up a little with small bits of pair-work and action-word association, but have to be careful because the parents are there watching – and anything unfamiliar is suspect.
Have to kind of agree with this one too, sad to say. I don’t think most of these schools intentionally torture kids (in fact, I get the impression that some of the teachers from this style are under the self-deluded impression that their classes are fun!) – however, under such a monotonous system with such colorless material, it’s only natural that the kids start to act out, and then of course one has to retaliate with draconian measures to maintain control (losing control of the kids in front of the parents is a huge faux pas!)
Do you mean “real teacher” as in licensed elementary school teacher with an esl endorsement or are you implying that by taking your job seriously you can call yourself a “real teacher”? Even though I got my First-Aid merit badge when I was a Boy Scout, I don’t feel comfortable calling myself a “real doctor”.
Most universities in the United States offer non-native speakers the opportunity to attend a language school that is associated with the university. These programs are run by staff from the university and classes are taught by university professors/lecturers and graduate students (under direct supervision from professional faculty). How do they do it? In my opinion, they can do it because they use the most effective teaching practices and the teaching staff are professional educators. Most instructors at our language school (at the university which I teach) either have phds in fields related to linguistics/education or masters degrees in education. All of the university professors/lecturers hold a general education license, most are endorsed in esl or bilingual education and several speak at least three languages. Like most things in life, you get what you pay for.
Plus the students are probably not allowed to speak any other language than English. No matter whether they are at school or not. If caught speaking anything but English, they can eventually be sent home.
Ph.d’s don’t count for that much. Sure, it helps that the teachers are using better pedagogy, but I’d argue that it’s the combination of an immersion environment, an intensive program, and students who are very focused far more than it is the quality of instruction. Put those same teachers in Taiwan and only let them teach kids 2 hours a week and they’ll do a good job, but they won’t get even close to the same results they get in their summer programs.