Hardcore Foreign Run Buxibans

Yeah, um I’m not so sure about this either. I have a lot of Taiwanese friends who attended USD and UCSDs’ ESL programs; out of curiosity I questioned them extensively about what their teachers did in class and it was nothing spectacular by any means. Either way too structured (fill in exercises in Betty Azar and then read them outloud one by one) or not structured enough (Ok today’s let’s talk about “culture”!)

I’m quite confident that, given the same amount of time with a class that these guys have, I could majorly smoke most of them.

Is the arguement you assert based on your experience of teaching at one of the university sponsored programs in the United States/Canada, formulated due to specific research you have conducted in the subject area as part of graduate study, or are you just guessing? Nothing wrong with guessing… I just wanted to know if I should take your opinion seriously or not.

Is the arguement you assert based on your experience of teaching at one of the university sponsored programs in the United States/Canada, formulated due to specific research you have conducted in the subject area as part of graduate study, or are you just guessing? Nothing wrong with guessing… I just wanted to know if I should take your opinion seriously or not.[/quote]
Based on experience, but not from teaching in a university sponsored program for English in the US.

I’ve taught in a serious, university sponsored immersion program for foreign language in the US, but it wasn’t English. I was/am also a language student. I studied language at a major university with some top-rate professors in the field of Chinese language teaching, and I studied secondary education (specializing in teaching Chinese to English speakers) and TESOL. My opinion draws upon that experience.

I went through Mandarin language training in the US. I learned Cantonese in Hong Kong after going through an intensive program. I found learning in an immersive environment after taking a hardcore immersion course to be a more significant factor in the rate I learned than the qualifications of my instructors. I just applied my experience with both types of programs to English language learning.

Now maybe you can argue that my experience isn’t valid because I’m not a student of English or a professor in one of the programs you’ve mentioned. But I’ve studied modern pedagogy and theories behind ESL. I’ve taught English in both immersive and non-immersive environments as well as English, Cantonese, and Mandarin in intensive and non-intensive programs.

So, while I’m not a professor coming from such a program, nor have I had the opportunity to compare such a person teaching in that kind of environment to them teaching English in Taiwan, I do believe my guess is educated enough.

I’ve been teaching here for almost three months now – which by no means makes me a verteran – but I’m pretty frustrated by the buxiban system. That’s to say, I hate the fact that kids are passed even if they clearly don’t understand the material (because if they were to fail, their parents might pull them from the school). This is compounded by the fact that I have to teach these kids. I have classes with up to 26 kids, and if four of them don’t understand a single word coming out of my mouth then it slows down the whole class.

Mark at Doubting to shou (who likely is a member of Forumosa too) gave me some links about what he calls “Hard-core Foreign-Run Buxibans.” Aside from the major plus that the pay is about twice what I’m getting presently, these buxibans apparently don’t deal with the BS that is the praise masquarade that other schools put on for the parents. They’re straight-up, telling the parent’s whether or not their kids are doing well, because in the end, the goal is that their children can speak english, not that they get good grades.

I’m not the kind of person who likes to waste my time. I want my students to learn English, but if the system doesn’t make that possible then I want to find a place that will. Then, finding out that the pay’s that much better makes me restless.

Now that I’ve said all that, Mark offered to answer some questions for me over skype, but we’re never online at the same time, so I’ve decided to ask here, at least to get an idea of what my options are.

  1. With these HFRBs, do I need to be able to speak Chinese? (I don’t, but that’s the reason I’m here)

  2. Do they require a minimum of experience?

  3. Where do I sign up?

I know a lot of people will say that they’re all different, but I’m looking for a range. If some will accept teachers who don’t speak Chinese and others won’t, I’d like to know.

Keep and kid and keep working with him/her, or toss the kid and fire the expensive foreign teacher whose salary the artificially promoted kid’s tuition pays…

Which would you prefer? Now, it’s not always as cut and dried as that, but depending on the size of the school, it can be very similar.

[quote]
the goal is that their children can speak english, not that they get good grades. [/quote]

I have yet to come across a place where this wasn’t a major concern, especially when the kids hit junior high.

Dunno. The premise behind the ‘Hard Core’ buxibans is more of the same IMO. We have a system. Your 8 year old is GUARANTEED to reach communicative proficiency in a difficult foreign language because we KNOW HOW TO TEACH. We care. We are so clever because our teachers speak a little bit of Chinese and we think this helps.

The assumptions behind this don’t need me to poke holes in them, they stand alone, and needless to say, their goal is also to make money by stimulating a high level of commitment from teacher and customer (the parent, not the student). It’s just a different business model.

The bottom line is unless you are running a huge school with classes at all levels running at similar times, there’s simply nowhere for ‘non-performing’ students to go. Toss the kids with less aptitude out? Ouch, there’s nothing like early labelling to destroy a kid’s love of education.

A competent teacher will take a medium sized mixed level class and each student will be able to take away something new. Your school system is designed to make money through the teaching of English. This is also your goal, unless you are independently wealthy and have always dreamed of teaching verb conjugations to elementary school aged kids in suburban east Asia. Think of a way for everyone to win without giving yourself a heart attack.

Also, I don’t know your students, but don’t assume they aren’t learning because they aren’t saying much. If they are engaged, they will be processing some of it. I find mixed level classes to be far more productive and rewarding. Are they frustrating/hard work? Sure.

Anyway, my post is a bit rambling. It’s not meant to be critical of anyone. My main points are: 1. there isn’t a ‘system’ which ‘works’, otherwise everyone in Taiwan who wanted to would speak perfect English 2. It’s not economically viable not to have mixed level classes. 3. It’s not educationally desirable either, even if you are teaching with a simplistic ‘grammatical checklist’ approach in mind.

[quote=“Buttercup”]Dunno. The premise behind the ‘Hard Core’ buxibans is more of the same IMO. We have a system. Your 8 year old is GUARANTEED to reach communicative proficiency in a difficult foreign language because we KNOW HOW TO TEACH. We care. We are so clever because our teachers speak a little bit of Chinese and we think this helps.

The assumptions behind this don’t need me to poke holes in them, they stand alone, and needless to say, their goal is also to make money by stimulating a high level of commitment from teacher and customer (the parent, not the student). It’s just a different business model.

The bottom line is unless you are running a huge school with classes at all levels running at similar times, there’s simply nowhere for ‘non-performing’ students to go. Toss the kids with less aptitude out? Ouch, there’s nothing like early labelling to destroy a kid’s love of education.

A competent teacher will take a medium sized mixed level class and each student will be able to take away something new. Your school system is designed to make money through the teaching of English. This is also your goal, unless you are independently wealthy and have always dreamed of teaching verb conjugations to elementary school aged kids in suburban east Asia. Think of a way for everyone to win without giving yourself a heart attack.

Also, I don’t know your students, but don’t assume they aren’t learning because they aren’t saying much. If they are engaged, they will be processing some of it. I find mixed level classes to be far more productive and rewarding. Are they frustrating/hard work? Sure.

Anyway, my post is a bit rambling. It’s not meant to be critical of anyone. My main points are: 1. there isn’t a ‘system’ which ‘works’, otherwise everyone in Taiwan who wanted to would speak perfect English 2. It’s not economically viable not to have mixed level classes. 3. It’s not educationally desirable either, even if you are teaching with a simplistic ‘grammatical checklist’ approach in mind.[/quote]First of all, my school is huge. It is a chain school and it’s one of the biggest branches of the school. There are numerous classes at all levels. So, there is certainly somewhere for non-performing students to go.

Maybe I misunderstood what you were saying, but I don’t have a lot of money. That doesn’t mean that I don’t want to actually impart something valuable to these children while I’m getting paid. These classes that I have are classes I took over for a teacher who left. So I was stuck with kids who have been coming up from level to level without learning. Some of my classes are quite proficient and quick to pick up new concepts, while others are dragged down by kids who have made it from level to level by the skin of their teeth.

I will be the first to admit that I have a lot to learn about teaching. At the same time, I have many an afternoon where I question if I’m going to learn valuable skills in a place where the objective is to pass a kid at all costs.

I should stress that I’m not saying I want to fail any old kid who lags behind. At my school, you have to beg to fail any child. The students I’m talking about specifically couldn’t write a single word on their quizzes, while, certainly, others mispelled things and still others did perfectly. I’m only talking about those children who truly don’t know anything.

I agree it can be frustrating to have mixed level classes and not to be able to fail students. I have no hesitation failing kids in tests. However, if you are going to fail students then you must be prepared to offer the support that student needs to improve themselves. If you are not prepared to do that then the rest is just hot air. Are you prepared to offer after class support to the students you want to fail? If you are then credit to you. If not, well…

Welcome to the world of cram schools. Its money first and then you worry about the kids and their english ability (obviously if all the kids sucked something would be done :slight_smile: ) Anyway thats my look on things, Im sure there are some good schools out there, but most are just cash cows imho.

Sorry to burst your bubbles but you can take away ‘cram schools’ and replace that with ‘the entire global EFL industry’ :unamused:

If you are an EFL teacher, you are a low end service worker. Your goals and your boss’s goals may or may not be the same. Your job is to sell English in the same way ‘Fitness’ is sold at a gym. Can you get fit at a gym? Sure. Does everyone? Of course not, and no-one seems to questions this or have huge moral debates about this. If you want to teach English, you learn to deal with this dissonance or you don’t.

The skilled ‘personal trainer’ has an impact on the customer’s fitness. Management decisions such as whether the showers are well cleaned, quality of towels, well scheduled yoga classes also make a big difference. Other things like bus routes, the weather, arguments with family members, reasons for going to the gym, etc etc, arguably have far more influence on the efficacy of the gym. Ultimately, it’s the customer’s responsibilty to get fit. Wherein lies the major flaw in Kids EFL. The student is 7 and doesn’t really care either way and has no immediate financial stake in the process.

Some kids enjoy ***** and/or have an aptitude for it, some don’t. Without aptitude or interest, you’re going to have problems. A certain percentage of kids are never going to do well in ***** and being a children’s teacher is about managing this as well as managing your boss’s and your customers’ expectations.

Perspective is important.

Rmaguir, lots of buxibans, not only the “hard-core” ones, will drop kids back a level or at least give them extra help until they catch up in one sense or another.

Concerning the “hard-core buxibans”, I’m all for schools taking teaching seriously, but how can these places get kids communicating without using communicative methods (at least those which have been proven to work)? As Buttercup says, it’s more of the same really. The “bright” kids learn facts about the language and retain them for a while. The other kids retain the same facts just long enough to pass a test. Kids are still pretty much on their own as regards developing real, flexible, fluent communication skills.

Buttercup said a profound thing here:[quote=“Buttercup”]Also, I don’t know your students, but don’t assume they aren’t learning because they aren’t saying much. If they are engaged, they will be processing some of it. I find mixed level classes to be far more productive and rewarding. Are they frustrating/hard work? Sure.[/quote]There is more to this statement than meets the eye. The key words are “engaged” and “processing”.

The key is engaging input. Sometimes this in itself is enough. Some of the very quiet kids turn out to be some of the most eloquent in conversations out of the classroom. And some other kids who haven’t seemed to be “getting it” much at all suddenly become talkative and fluent in class, though of course accuracy still needs some work.

Of course, once kids have a core of usable language they need to have opportunities to produce connected, meaningful speech and writing. And they need to put some effort into doing this. This builds fluency (in a narrow, technical sense) and confidence.

But a necessary condition for any real language learning is engaging input, and that’s something I rarely see discussed here.

I had no bubbles there to burst but if you think there was please by all means burst away :slight_smile:

Sorry, that was rude of me. :blush:

yes, well 9yo–almost guarantee–yes, yes, a lot, we know it helps.

[quote]The assumptions behind this don’t need me to poke holes in them, they stand alone, and needless to say, their goal is also to make money by stimulating a high level of commitment from teacher and customer (the parent, not the student). It’s just a different business model. [/quote] that, or they simply try to do a good job and let the results speak for themselves. one of those.

somewhat true, but there’s normally always a space available for a student to drop down too. not at the exact time you want but there’s not much you can do about that. kicking out is reserved for kids who simply aren’t doing their work. doesn’t seem to be much of a love of education to destroy in those cases.

certainly true, but you’re not shooting for the moon there. a competent teacher should be able to do a lot more with a consistent level class.

true enough, but knowing you did the best job you could, in any type of teaching situation, will help you sleep well at night.

they might be, but you won’t really have any way of determining that. also they will be missing out on a rare, expensive chance to practice speaking.

cool.

all in good fun! i think any teacher can have a system that gets good results for them. teaching classes of consistent levels does for me, and not in a simplistic approach. the economics of it are fine as far as i’m concerned.

for the op, most of these places will require some chinese. a certain natural ability to teach a class of children might go as far as teaching experience when looking for this kind of job. look on tealit, you will find ads there.

Sorry, I really can’t read those ‘quote’ posts at this time of the night. You’re the ‘fred smith’ of the teaching forum. I’m socially/educationally conditioned to respond to the paragraph as a means of separating ideas within a text. I’ll just assume you agreed with everything and added something interesting at the end to contribute further.

I have nothing to contribute. I don’t even teach kids anymore. I’d rather cut my ears off than set foot in a buxiban, ‘hard core’ or otherwise. The thought just makes me want weep with boredom/passive aggressive rage. Just poking my nose in for no reason. I SWEAR, for the billionth time to stay off ‘Teaching in Stuff in Taiwan’ and ‘Dating and Relationships’.

What sane person thinks about this cack for more than 7 seconds?

There, that’s the second time I’ve written that today. To bed, to bed.

Hi,
Does anyone know if there are any hfrb’s outside of the Taipei area. I’m specifically interested in Taichung (or somewhere on the coast even). I have three years of Chinese and a couple of summers in China, so my thought is this is the way to go. I’ll deal with Taipei if I have to, but I’ve heard the weather in Taichung is much more pleasant.

 Also, I'm looking at coming up in early November after I get my Celta certificate.  I'll be able to support myself for a little while before I need to start working.  So I figured I'd take my time and look at getting a job for the Spring.  Will that work?  Am I shooting myself in the foot by coming up in the Fall?

Thanks

hfrb?

I think hfrb means “hardcore foreign run buxiban” although it took me a while to figure it out. Here’s a link to an explanation:

toshuo.com/2005/hard-core-foreign-run-buxibans/

FLAs are a PITA. HTFU or RTFM.

[quote=“Anbende”]Hi,
Does anyone know if there are any hfrb’s outside of the Taipei area. I’m specifically interested in Taichung (or somewhere on the coast even). I have three years of Chinese and a couple of summers in China, so my thought is this is the way to go. I’ll deal with Taipei if I have to, but I’ve heard the weather in Taichung is much more pleasant.

 Also,[color=blue] I'm looking at coming up in early November[/color] after I get my Celta certificate.  I'll be able to support myself for a little while before I need to start working.  [color=blue]So I figured I'd take my time and look at getting a job for the Spring.[/color]  Will that work?  Am I shooting myself in the foot by coming up in the Fall?

Thanks[/quote]

I think you’ll be wasting your time and money by coming so early if all you plan to do is look for a job. I came in January, a week before Chinese New Year. It took me all of four days to secure a job. You will have more options if you arrive when most people are about to leave. No need to come two months early.

Also, what does your Chinese ability have to do with your desire to work at an hfrb? I don’t see much need to use a lot of Chinese when you’re teaching English. Every once in a while, it might come in handy, but you don’t need to focus on hfrb’s in order to find an opportunity to speak Chinese or use a bit in the classroom or with coworkers. Actually, of the hfrb’s that I’ve interviewed with and observed, the amount of Chinese that was being spoken was completely unnecessary and prevented the students from learning to think in English. They were all merely practicing their translating skills. If you’re coming here to teach, you’ll be doing your students a real disservice by practicing your Chinese in the classroom.