Has the economy improved under Obama?

[color=#0000BF]mod note: this has been split from Another Dishonest Democrat[/color]

edit This is weird… This sort of gives the impression that I wanted to discuss this topic, when really it was just a random comment in I made in another thread. :whistle:

[quote]Obama made many promises as to what effects his policies would have and when the effects would be apparent.
Five years later and things have become worse, not better.
Obama owns the present economic situation.[/quote]

If you can find 1 metric showing the economy is worse now than when Obama took office for every 5 that I can find showing it isn’t, you win. Care to go a few rounds on the Economy with me Tigs, or do you just want to accept that right out of the gates you’ve made a ludicrous comment? :loco: The Economy is FAR better now than 5 years ago. What the hell are you smoking, and can you share some of it with the rest of us?

To be honest I had no idea you had it in you. Giving Obama such a tremendous compliment, it’s so out of character for you. Obama says thanks Tigs, I did do a good job didn’t I. :sunglasses:

I’m no economist and have never claimed to be… But, I know what Obama claimed his policies would do and I see what results are reported. I also know that many claim the comparison should not be between Bush and Obama, but between Obama’s recovery vs. previous recoveries.

Anyway, per your request I have found 12 metrics showing the economy is worse now than when Obama took office. You need to find 5 metrics for each of my one showing it isn’t, or else, per your challenge, I win:

[quote=“FactCheck.org”][color=#FF0000]Obama’s Numbers - October 2013[/color]

1) Total Federal Debt is Up 58%

2) Debt held by Public is Up 89%

3) Consumer Prices are Up 10.2%

4) Regular Gasoline Prices are Up 82%

5) Real Household Income is Down 5%

6) Persons in Poverty are Up by 6,700,000

7) Food Stamp recipients are Up 49%[/quote]

This is a bit old, but, i don’t think there has been any change for the better:

[color=#000000]12) The labor force participation rate fell to 63.2% in August, its lowest level since 1978.[/color]

Your turn. You need to find 60 metrics in order to win… :slight_smile:

[color=#000000]Oh, here are 12 more metrics:[/color]

#1 When Barack Obama entered the White House, 60.6% of working age Americans had a job. Today, only 58.7% of working age Americans have a job.

#2 Since Obama has been president, seven out of every eight jobs that have been “created” in the U.S. economy have been part-time jobs.

#3 The number of full-time workers in the United States is still nearly 6 million below the old record that was set back in 2007.

#4 It is hard to believe, but an astounding 53% of all American workers now make less than $30,000 a year.

#5 40% of all workers in the United States actually make less than what a full-time minimum wage worker made back in 1968.

#6 When the Obama era began, the average duration of unemployment in this country was 19.8 weeks. Today, it is 36.6 weeks.

#7 When Obama entered the White House, the mortgage delinquency rate was 7.85%. Today, it is 9.72%.

#8 In 2008, the U.S. trade deficit with China was 268 billion dollars. Last year, it was 315 billion dollars.

#9 When Obama first became president, 12.5 million Americans had manufacturing jobs. Today, only 11.9 million Americans have manufacturing jobs.

#10 The United States has fallen in the global economic competitiveness rankings compiled by the World Economic Forum for four years in a row.

#11 The total amount of money that the federal government gives directly to the American people has grown by 32% since Obama became president.

#12 When Obama was first elected, the U.S. debt to GDP ratio was under 70%. Today, it is up to 101%.

[quote=“Tigerman”]I’m no economist and have never claimed to be… But, I know what Obama claimed his policies would do and I see what results are reported. I also know that many claim the comparison should not be between Bush and Obama, but between Obama’s recovery vs. previous recoveries.

Anyway, per your request that I find 1 metric showing the economy is worse now than when Obama took office for every 5 that you can find showing it isn’t, I win:

[quote=“FactCheck.org”]Obama’s Numbers - October 2013

Total Federal Debt is Up 58%

Debt held by Public is Up 89%

Consumer Prices are Up 10.2%

Regular Gasoline Prices are Up 82%

Real Household Income is Down 5%

Persons in Poverty are Up by 6,700,000

Food Stamp recipients are Up 49%[/quote]

Your turn. You need to find 35 metrics in order to win… :slight_smile:[/quote]

So 4 of 6 of those are driven by the down turn that began in 2008 and where output has not recovered - even to today to 2007 levels.

Gas prices in the US are drive by state gasoline additive requirements and cracking plant capacity as well as international oil prices. And let’s take a deeper look at those statistics…

“The average price for gasoline has zoomed up and down several times under Obama, but it never reached the record $4.11 set in July 2008, under Bush. The highest price posted under Obama was $3.97 in the week ending May 9, 2011. The most recent price is, however, still 82 percent higher than the unusually low average of $1.85 for the week just before Obama first took office, when a worldwide recession was pushing down demand. And it’s 2 percent higher than it was when Obama began his second term in January.”

So maybe 2% might be a more fair number as the $1.85 was an artifact.

“Inflation has remained quite moderate by historical standards. As of August, the most recent figure available, the seasonally adjusted Consumer Price Index stood just 10.2 percent higher than it did when Obama first took office.”

This is interesting. The historical long term US inflation rate runs about 3% per year. If prices are up 10% since 2008, that’s actually a low number and actually shows how weak demand has been over the past 6 years.

I always try to read statistics carefully because of all the nonsense that goes on.

:bravo: :bravo: :bravo: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

[quote]
metric showing the economy is worse now than when Obama took office
[/quote]

I assumed having it spelled out for you in plain English would have been enough, but like so many other times in the past I’ve made a poor assumption on your reading comprehension skills. Still waiting for you to point to a metric showing the Economy is worse now than when Obama took office because as of now you’re still at zero my friend. We’ll be here a while of course :roflmao:

[quote=“BrentGolf”][quote]
metric showing the economy is worse now than when Obama took office
[/quote]

I assumed having it spelled out for you in plain English would have been enough, but like so many other times in the past I’ve made a poor assumption on your reading comprehension skills. Still waiting for you to point to a metric showing the Economy is worse now than when Obama took office because as of now you’re still at zero my friend. We’ll be here a while of course :roflmao:[/quote]

Economic indicators can be anything anyone wants them to be. You know that. I said that things have got worse since Obama became President. I’ve listed 24 things that have got worse since Obama became president. Ball’s on the tee for you, hotshot. :laughing:

I’ve already stated that I’m no economist. But, the indicators I listed above are facts, and they do not indicate a healthy economy. Here’s what an economics geek has to say:

I dunno. I’ve no idea if these folks know what they’re talking about. But, that doesn’t sound too good.

Uh no, they can’t be, that is asinine. There are actually very well understood reasons why we use certain indicators to measaure the strength of an economy, and we don’t tend to care what Tigerman or Brentgolf or any other individual “FEELS” like he wants them to be.

If I may :laughing: This is the problem with your posting on this forum and it shows up in legal discussions, Obama threads, and now in a discussion about the Economy. You put almost no original thought into your posting. You just go around cutting and pasting random nonsense without applying any independent thought to it. This leads to what you have above. A laundry list of things that have NOTHING to do with the original question. Why did this happen? Because you didn’t ask yourself the very basic question that nearly everybody else asks themselves when copying and pasting. Does this mean what I think it means?

The answer almost invariably is no, it does not. You don’t have to be an Economist to do this. Look above at your list of cut and paste jobs and apply some original thought to them. How many of them couldn’t occur in both a recession or boom times? How many of them don’t have other more influential variables affecting them? None right? So on further reflection, do you see why you still haven’t posted a single meaningful metric to determine whether the economy is better now than when Obama took office? You want me to break out the charts again and show you why the economy is so much better now than in 2008? I will if you like… I apologize, I thought it was common knowledge that the economy is far better now than in 2008. I had no idea there were people who didn’t know that. I’ll help you get up to speed if you like.

You’ve heard the old saying, think before you speak right? In your case, it should be think before you copy and paste other peoples thoughts :laughing:

I think it is common knowledge. Of course we all wish the economy was doing better, but I don’t think anyone seriously believes the economy is worse off now than the height of the Great Recession. I was surprised by TM’s post.

Gas prices, TM? Really? :laughing:

Tigerman, I think we should just stop this before it goes any further. It’s pretty clear it’s going to be a one sided beating of an argument and there’s definitely a whole myriad of more interesting things to talk about. If you’ve been isolated from the knowledge that the US economy is greatly improved over the last 5 years, ok fine that’s your issue to deal with. I can assure you it is a fact the economy is far better now than in 2008, and I really don’t think either one of us has any interest in me giving you an economics lesson with charts and graphs.

There are many things in the economy that are subjective, opinion based things that everybody regardless of educational background can participate in. However your statement that things are worse now is not one of them. That treads overtly on the realm of facts and can be easily disproved and dismissed as incorrect.

So net win for the forum. We will not be going into detail on why the economy is factually far stronger now than in 2008. It just is, and Obama owns that dramatic improvement :thumbsup:

Funny… I am not quite sure that everyone was so willing to treat the matter with such equanimity when it was Bush lied; trooops died… Wonder what could have happened in the interim to make Americans so forgiving… especially those on the left, democrat, liberal side of the equation? :roflmao:[/quote]

When a lib lies it’s for your own good. That’s why they don’t make a big deal out of it.

[quote=“BrentGolf”]Tigerman, I think we should just stop this before it goes any further. It’s pretty clear it’s going to be a one sided beating of an argument and there’s definitely a whole myriad of more interesting things to talk about. If you’ve been isolated from the knowledge that the US economy is greatly improved over the last 5 years, ok fine that’s your issue to deal with. I can assure you it is a fact the economy is far better now than in 2008, and I really don’t think either one of us has any interest in me giving you an economics lesson with charts and graphs.

There are many things in the economy that are subjective, opinion based things that everybody regardless of educational background can participate in. However your statement that things are worse now is not one of them. That treads overtly on the realm of facts and can be easily disproved and dismissed as incorrect.

So net win for the forum. We will not be going into detail on why the economy is factually far stronger now than in 2008. It just is, and Obama owns that dramatic improvement :thumbsup:[/quote]

Translation: I don’t care about facts. The economy is better because I say it is.

The funny thing is BG actually thinks he is winning this debate. They don’t call them moonbats for nothing.

Then you should brush up on your understanding of Economics should you not? And I’m not trying to be condescending. Economics is a difficult subject to understand. I’m just saying, if you think that 5 years is enough time to recover from the epic fuckery that was the Bush administration you have some studying to do. What Bush did to the economy will be felt for decades to come.[/quote]

I’m not so sure the guy who fails to see the effect a smaller labor participation rate has on the unemployment rate should be lecturing other people about their supposed lack of knowledge in economics. Let me guess, Paul Krugman fanboy?

You mean there’s more than 1 person on the planet that didn’t know the economy is much improved since 2008? Wow, go figure…

Uh no, they can’t be, that is asinine. [/quote]

No, it’s simply the ugly truth. Sometimes the numbers are misleading, and sometimes the numbers are outright lies. For instance, here’s a little scandal recently about falsified unemployment numbers in the US. And have you looked into the history of how they measure the CPI?

I certainly have never claimed that government statistics are accurate. I very often speak directly about how many of their stats are completely wrong. CPI, unemployment rate, money supply, GDP, the list goes on… This is why we need to exercise original thought when analyzing things and not just simply cutting and pasting random nonsense from popcorn articles designed to get mouse clicks.

Employment, manufacturing, industrial production, construction growth, housing, business inventory, durable goods, consumption, consumer credit, vehicle sales, GDP, corporate profits, stock markets, everything points to an economy that is better than it was back then. Taken as a whole, it’s IMPOSSIBLE not to acknowledge how much better things are then at the peak of the crisis. Most people have no idea how bad things were then, and how close we were to really losing it. Things are miles better today…

Now let’s get back to bashing Obamacare shall we? It seems to be the trendy thing to do lately :discodance:

And all those figures come from the same government that has been caught lying on various matters.

I’ll give some cautious credence to state figures that show things are going well in regions where fracking is going on and horribly everywhere else except the DC area, because I can corroborate these with my eyeballs. Any number from the feds these days I will not trust.

[quote]
Now let’s get back to bashing Obamacare shall we? It seems to be the trendy thing to do lately :discodance:[/quote]

Now there’s a trend with some solid fundamentals behind it. I expect that trend to accelerate. I wish I could short Odammitcare.

Well first, fudged numbers didn’t start in 2009 so it’s a moot point anyway. Secondly, nearly all of those meaningful metrics I stated are gathered from multiple sources many of which are independent, private and have nothing to do with government. Lastly, as long as you know when methods of calculating change, when new formulas begin to be used, you can always use statistics to draw conclusions. Even fake statistics can be used if you know the methods for the calculation. This is why random cutting and pasting gets people into a lot of trouble. Regurgitation without original thought never works out as intended.

Seems to me it’s been shorted down to all hell already. It either goes bankrupt (repealed) or we see a nice short squeeze in the coming months. We’ll see :popcorn:

Ah, I can’t resist. :unamused: A topic has come up that lands squarely in my wheel house. Since two people have mentioned the labor force participation rate, Let’s take a minute to explain why since the Clinton years it hasn’t been a meaningful measure of the strength of the economy. (Economics is complicated, so maybe a little longer than a minute :blush: )

I’m sure everybody is aware of the old problem of correlation vs causation so I won’t be condescending and go into what that means. So it’s true that the labor force participation rate is declining in the Obama administration so there is definitely a correlation between the two. So does that mean that Obama is responsible? Well no of course not, there is no causation in this case.

Remember how the labor force is calculated and who is included in that base of potential workers (Google it if you don’t know) So what happens to the labor force participation rate when droves of baby boomers are reaching retirement age and retiring? It goes down right? This is exactly what’s happening, and it’s happening on a large scale. So large in fact that despite moving from SHEDDING hundreds of thousands of jobs every single month in 2008/09 and the fact that we are now ADDING hundreds of thousands of jobs every month in the economy, it’s still not enough to offset the demographics of the large number of baby boomers dropping out of the work force. They are still considered labor force, but they are not “participating” anymore. There are several other reasons why despite the improvement in the job market, this participation rate will continue to decline.

Bear in mind, this is not limited to the Obama administration. Bush and Obama directly faced the baby boomer demographic problem which directly caused the decrease in the participation rate so this isn’t partisan. It’s been happening for well over a decade and it will continue for several years in the future.

So since the labor force participation rate is so wildly skewed in the last decade we don’t use it. So what do we use? Well we need statistics that more accurately reflect the CURRENT job situation. What are people doing RIGHT NOW?
As I said, we went from shedding hundreds of thousands of jobs to now adding hundreds of thousands of jobs. That’s one pretty direct reason to think the job market is wildly improved. A second is of course initial jobless claims. This reflects what people are doing RIGHT NOW, and not what the demographics of people born 60 years ago are doing.

Looks pretty good to me :sunglasses:

This is why the metrics that I stated are the real metrics we use to measure the strength of the economy. Corporations move to maximize profit. The fact that they are ramping up orders, production, manufacturing, hiring, inventories, and capital investment is a direct and clear sign the economy is becoming far more robust. Consumption, consumer credit, household debt, housing, vehicle purchases, retail, these are all meaningful measures. And like it or not, the stock market, corporate profits, dividend ramp ups, and stock buy backs are also very good indicators. I certainly appreciate the effort by some to come up with all those stats to the contrary, but not a single one of them is a leading indicator or a statistic that is relevant in determining the strength of the economy. Every one of them can be present in both recession and expansion in the economy so they are at best correlations and should not be confused with causation. We can’t just randomly choose what metrics we look at. Economists use the same metrics I posted above because those are the ones that show both correlation and causation, and accurately reflect the CURRENT situation without external and unrelated variables.

No condescension, no insults, no partisanship. Hopefully just a clear explanation of an economic principle. Truth be told, we don’t even need to credit Obama with the massive economic recovery we have seen in the last 4 years. The same thing would have happened under any President who adopted counter cyclical fiscal policy. Spending more when the economy is in the dumps is the best way to stimulate growth and get us over the hump. Now being a little partisan, Republicans have demonstrated time and again a lack of respect for counter cyclical fiscal policy, which is why Economists in general feel the Bush administration was such a monumental fuck up. That and supply side Economics with the Bush tax cuts really crippled the economy and the effects will last for many years. There was no reason for the spending to increase and tax revenues to decline as dramatically as they did. If you spend that much during reasonable good times, it really amplifies the debt issue when you are forced to spend like crazy during the occasional really bad times, like 08/09.

But anyway, that’s for another discussion. The economy is substantially better now than it was then. We all wish it was better, but maybe it will continue to improve who knows? It better hurry because the recession cycle isn’t much longer than 5-7 years so another one is probably just around the corner. :whistle:

But considering where we were just 4 years ago, and where we are now, like it or not we do have to give a thumbs up to the government and the FED for navigating through a really difficult situation. :thumbsup:

so… how about that Obama Care, what a mess that is huh?

BrentGolf:

I think one of the issues here might be not that the economy is not better than that immediately following the crash but this:

  1. Is the economy now over the five years that Obama has been “running it” better than a similar five-year period under other presidents?
  2. Is Obama and are his policies responsible for the improvement?
  3. Is it fair to compare the economy over five years with a multi-month period immediately leading up to and following the stock market crash?
  4. Under another administration, would the economy and unemployment have improved faster/better with less government spending/new programs?
  5. Obama claims credit for many things… increasing gas/oil supplies, for example. Yet, in fact, his policies are directly counter to increasing this in many ways. The increase, in the view of most, has come DESPITE his best efforts not because of them.

I FEEL that you are missing Tigerman’s points on many of these issues. Now, back to the topic at hand: “dishonesty.” Given the promises made about Obamacare and the realities, how best would you describe the apparent dissonance regarding the hope and change that many were expecting with the hope and change that they got? I will leave you to describe/phrase that in any terms that you like so you will not feel the need to “redefine” anyone’s terms. This is a blank slate. I am merely asking for an explanation. Can you rise to the task? Let’s see…

No I understood his clear statement that the economy is worse now than 5 years ago and I fairly addressed it, it’s not. I initially got a little giddy with it I’ll admit (naturally this forum does that to people, him, you, I, and others) but my above post is a fair, unbiased, and a non insulting account of why that simply isn’t the case.

Now you are absolutely right that the far more important questions are to what extent the economy is better and how should this recovery be judged. Those are all good questions. If you’d like a detailed response, i’d be happy to give an unbiased breakdown. You might get a little sleepy reading it though, Economics is boring and detail oriented, not exactly thrilling forum reading.

The problem with a comparison of statistics is that we don’t have any useful statistics regarding the great depression and it’s recovery, which is the only recession in the last 100 years that is of similar magnitude to this last one. The only recessions we can compare to are 73’, 81’, 90’, 01’. But despite what the mainstream media tries to portray, this recovery actually isn’t nearly as weak as people think. There are areas where it’s fallen short, but there are other areas where it’s very robust.

All in all, again, pretty damn solid work in the last 5 years considering where we were. The real magic trick will be how they navigate through the next recession which is probably just around the corner. Late 2014’ish is my long standing prediction…

Now Obama Care? Come on… As I stated many times, I don’t blindly tote the party line. It’s a clusterfuck, no denying it. Hope and change? Don’t make me laugh Obama. But he’s a politician, and they are all professional liars. I tend not to judge that about them because he’s just a speech giver, he’s not in control of anything. I only care about the Economy, and in this case I don’t think anybody if asked in 2008 would have guessed we’d be doing as well as we actually are in 2013. Job well done in my opinion…