[quote=“Kelake”]
Last night a friend of mine witnessed a hit and run in panchiao.
it was 11pm and he saw a blue truck in front of him hit an elderly couple walking on the side of the street. He said the truck seemed to swerve into them. the truck took off and he had the good sense to write the tag number. the cops came and after awile they took his statement.
they next day they said that he must have written the wrong number down because they found the truck (nearby, he thinks)and it didnt have any signs of an accident.
the woman was thrown into the windshield of the truck and was d.o.a and the man was treated for minor injuries.
my question is…
it was the only vehicle in the street and he actually wrote the license number within seconds.
what are the odds that his “wrong plate number” matched that of an identical truck in the neighborhood.
It seems more likely that the driver went to his friend the mechanic and had a new windshield put in that night and cleaned off the blood.
The police told him that there isnt much that they can do about it at this time. they probably arent going to investigate it any more.
Ive been to that neighborhood at night and the cars fly down the narrow twisted alleys like they were on a race track.
be careful walking on the street because people get away with murder here.
[quote=“sticks of fury”]What about Taipei under mayor Chen Shuibian? Is there anyone who can recollect? Chen Shuibian had the police follow the law by the book didn’t he?[/quote]The police have been just as corrupt and incomptent and unwilling to enforce any law under any mayor or president. And as Paul Clark will attest, just as racist.
How can anyone read this thread and say there is any “rule of law” in Taiwan ?
You all say Taiwan is safer than the UK, I’ve never been injured in the UK, and certainly not hit on a daily basis. I know where I feel safer. There are problems in the UK as dangermouse has stated, but people CARE about them, problems there are causes by lack of money etc, not because noone gives a shit. Look at the response you get when you suggest Taiwan is less than perfect, how can anything improve ? I would trust dangermouse with my life, who here can say that Taiwanese “police” ?
There are parts of the UK I wouldn’t go at night, but I feel safe nowhere in Taiwan even in broad daylight.
I wouldn’t say it was perfect by any means, but he did push the police into enough enforcement to invite death threats from the ‘special business owner’s association’. (‘special business’ is the administrative term for brothels, ktvs and men’s clubs for any n00bs out there) Chang Wen-ying (Tai/chung mayor) was similarly effective, though she was scared off by the threats, and CSB wasn’t.
I strongly agree with kelake that the lawlessness of Taiwan roads is an extremely stressful aspect of life there - for me, it was probably the most stressful, and, over 8 years, really wore me down.
I now live in a country where drivers flex the rules to their advantage, but still apply common sense to their actions. This alone makes life so much more pleasant here. My colleagues from other English-speaking countries think the roads here are chaotic, but the drivers are actually teddy-bears compared to those in Taiwan.
I’ve been through the flip-offs, shout-downs and other muscular confrontations, and have come to the conclusion that they’re totally pointless. It changes nothing. The sheer volume of close encounters of the deadly kind that you experience on Taiwanese roads every day makes it impossible to exact retribution for each serious wrongdoing. Individual victories over rogue drivers make bugger-all difference to the big picture.
The only one way that the savagery on the roads (and sidewalks) of Taipei (/Taiwan) could be curbed is by enforcing traffic laws. Any cop who stands on any corner of Taipei and issues tickets to scooter riders using the sidewalk as a drag-strip, for example, would probably rake in his monthly salary in an afternoon. It would be a financial bonanza for the authorities. But they’ll never do it because the government has no political balls. There’d be a huge backlash from motorists outraged that their right to do as they please on the roads has been infringed.
The result is that the roads are a jungle, and the one rule is your own survival. I laugh when I hear people drag out the weary old mantra about 5,000 years of civilization. Civilization? Where? Take a look at the roads. That’s the kind of scene you’d expect in most Third World backwaters. What you see is total disregard for the lives and well-being of fellow citizens. It’s what you’d expect of Bangladesh or Somalia.
[quote=“dix2111”]The police told him that there isnt much that they can do about it at this time. they probably arent going to investigate it any more.[/quote]Someone gets killed and the “police” do bugger all. Someone plays a guitar and they get trailed for 2 months.
Would some Taiwan apologist like to defend that please ?
Those old folks were jaywalking which is illegal. They knew the risks. They knew they were breaking the law and yet they recklessly chose to ignore the law.
The police are very busy catching guitar players, as we all know, so following up on errant pedestrians would be a waste of manpower. They obviously felt that the old woman had already received punishment enough. After all you can’t very well prosecute a dead person can you?
[quote=“Big Fluffy Matthew”][quote=“dix2111”]The police told him that there isnt much that they can do about it at this time. they probably arent going to investigate it any more.[/quote]Someone gets killed and the “police” do bugger all. Someone plays a guitar and they get trailed for 2 months.
Would some Taiwan apologist like to defend that please ?[/quote]
And if the cops only prosecute people on scooters and let the real criminals get away, whose fault is it?
Theirs for not doing their job and targeting criminals or investigating ?
Their bosses or the administration for not getting them to do their jobs ?
Or the general public who don’t really care too much and thus do not force the police to do their job else make them accountable when they do not do their job?
its the general apathy here and attitude of well I don’t care as it doesn’t affect me. C’mon you go out on the street and look around and the whole place is a mess i.e dirty, dangerous electrical wires dangling here and there, people driving recklessly and . People do not care beyond their walls, cars and family. and will defend these three things with a baseball bat
But really sometimes I wonder can I fault them for that. I come from a country ( independant), where people have an identity( they know their irish), where you are taught consideration and respect for your community and you care what happens to it and in it
ecce wombat wrote:
Where do you live now?
I don’t know about that. Every time I see someone pulled over (on a scoot, I’ve never seen someone pulled over in a car), usually for the heinous crime of making a right on red or something, the usually look pretty sheepish and have that Asian “I’m in trouble and your fate is in my hands” smile on. From what I have heard Taiwan (and probably mostly Taipei) issues the highest number of traffic tickets per capita in Asia and it still does no good. I think it’s a numbers game. There are ssssssooooooooo many drivers and ssssssssssoooooooooo few cops they feel the odds are with them and they can get away with anything. Also, it’s the way they enforce driving laws. Ever see a roving cop pulling over drivers who commit obvious infractions here? I never have in years here. People know there is no enforcement. If there was, you would probably see a difference.
One thing to note, this thread has been dominated largely by traffic worries. If you eliminated that I think foreigners (and probably a lot of locals) would feel much safer on a day-to-day basis here. Ever walk or drive around Taipei during Chinese New Year, when the driving population is cut by more than 50% with people going out of town? Its like another world. Traffic is the main culprit to people’s sense of well being here.
TNT wrote:
Very insightful and spot on. I have for a long time been searching for a copy of “The Ugly Chinaman” which purportedly addresses this very issue in depth and explains a lot of cultural attitudes here that baffle us. If anyone knows where I can get a copy (it is out of print) please let me know.
Many Taiwanese have given up on a common feeling for their fellow Taiwanese. It’s definitely to do with the lack of nationality and cohesiveness.
It makes me sad that most of my neighbours dont talk to me or each other, when they do talk to me now I’m not used to it and feel a little suspicious.
The mother upstairs beats her kids and there’s nothing anybody can do.
That said the security man (who is a mormon) always gives us gifts and never complains even though I keep a dog in the apartment (Which is not encouraged) and always tells us helpful stuff about the neighbourhood. He also said I was the most handsome foreigner he knows which wins big browny points!
It’s not good enough to say that this is a recently developed industrialised country, so is South Korea but you don’t see the same mayhem there.
By the way I believe the GDP is lower in South Korea but they just have a big sense of their own Koreaness and pride in their country, and that makes all the difference.
Taiwanese are fighting against the tide of history and therefore they feel that they better make money and get the ‘f%ck out of dodge’ if they can before the chinese take over or wreck the economy. It’s this attitude which is causing the most damage.
This selfishness that pervades its society is coming from the top down, not from the bottom up. If the Taiwanese felt the rules would be enforced they would follow the rules, they are not natural rebels. Therefore it is the fault of the political elite and powerbrokers.
Another factor is that a 1/3 of the GDP is being spent on arms purchases and that the legislature continues to waste vast amounts of time arguing over political persuasions rather than looking at the budget for improving the city and country environment. This is where mayor Ma has to be commended in the way he is helping to push Taipei city forward with new pavements everywhere.
I propose two practical steps to 100% improve Taiwan’s living standards
- Ban mechanical scooters and introduce electrical ones
- Introduce mandatory planning standards on all neighbourhoods including wiring, building facades, pavements widths, obstacle removal.
It’s a funny kind of nationalism where you don’t give a shit about your fellow countrymen, or your country, and are constantly saving up for the happy day when you can bugger off.
I once asked a Hong Kong policeman with 22 years experience what he would do if people refused to wear helmets in HK (they were going to bring in the helmet law in Taipei) and he said roadblock everywhere and fine, fine, fine until everyone got the message.
Fine for helmets, but the way the roads are set up here it is often impossible to ride a bike with any degree of safety without occaisionally breaking the law. I’m not going to stop for a red light when I know Billy Betelnut behind me is going to rear-end me if I stop. Nor am I going to ride in the inside lane to be cut up by random buses and taxis and those who join the traffic without looking. Life’s short enough without that degree of risk and stress. I’ll stay alive, but fined, in the car lane. If the fines get too big I’ll either buy a car or give up private transport and use taxis.
The traffic laws here have fine maximization as a first priority, not safety. I’m almost relieved they’re not properly enforced.
Big Fluffy Matthew wrote:
I think you have hit the nail on the head here.
Before I joined the Police I got badly beaten for "looking’ at a group of lads. This was in broad daylight just outside a shopping centre. However, complete strangers intervened, even though I didn’t know them and they risked getting hurt themselves.
Someone called the police, and there were three or four cars there within minutes. Three of the offenders got caught immediately while another 5 got arrested over the course of a couple of months. About 6 witnesses gave staements.
Now the difference between the UK and Taiwan is huge on two counts.
1). In Taiwan, the above situation is not likely to happen to you as Taiwanese usually avoid confrontation. I really don’t believe that a group of Taiwanese lads will go around and jump on someone for no reason, but it does happen in the UK alot. (Big attitude problems).
2). However, I’m not saying it doesn’t happen in Taiwan. If you were unlucky enough to experience this kind of behaviour put upon yourself in Taiwan, no-one would intervene. No witnesses would stand up in court for you or give statements to the police. In all, no one would give a shit.
If the police were called, they would probably arrive after the event happened. (If I got a call in the UK to this kind of “emergency” it would be blue lights all the way). In Taiwan, a couple of police would turn up after the event on a scooter. They would see you are a foreigner and try to gloss over the event. They would try to persuade you not to make a complaint and unless you as the victim were adamant, the case would be dropped.
I think what I am trying to say here is that if something happened to you here in Taiwan, (through crime, traffic accidents or whatever) your chances of getting justice or emergency help are limited. Fortunately, with the exception of traffic accidents, your chances of getting hurt through an assault, a mugging, a stabbing or shot are less here in Taiwan.
In the UK (and I’m sure I satnd for the US, Australia, SA, NZ, Canada and Europe) the emergency services will give you help and some support and at the very least, investigate any crimes reported. In this respect, Western countries are safer. In these countries, crimals actually run from the police instead of committing crimes under thier noses or actually being part of the police.
The same goes for rescue. In the UK, if you get lost or injured in the mountains, the Royal Air Force will come and get you out with a helicopter, for free. Your house is on fire, the fire brigade turn up within minutes BECAUSE THE TRAFFIC LETS THEM THROUGH. People care that someone might be cooking.
Someone sees you drowning, the coast guard and the RAF come out, whatever the weather, at risk to life or limb, whatever the cost.
If you have a serious car accident, all three emergency services will be at the scene within minutes and the road will probably be closed off. The air amulance will probably turn up if you are seriously injured. (My father owes his life to the air ambulance after a nasty smash). In Taiwan, cars will still squeeze past the accident, police and ambulance will be prevented from getting through the traffic because no one wants to give up their space on the road.
I was in Kenting once and a girl got hit by a car. The car stopped. The girl was unconcious and I put her in the recovery position and made her comfortable. The driver of the car (whose fault it was) who was standing nearby literally phisically lifted me off the girl and told me not to “intervene.” He then tried to put the girl back in the postion that she was in when she came off the bike. Obviously, I took exception and kept myself between him and the girl.
She was bleeding from the mouth which can be an indicaton of internal injuries. The police arrived. An ambulance was called, but instead of waiting for it to arrive they just picked here up and threw her onto the back seat of the police car. I argued with them to wait for the ambulance but they just ignored me. I was so angry that I took both my shoes off and threw them at the police car as it drove away, (I scored two direct hits, by the way, on the rear window to which I am proud of to this day) much to the bafflement of the group of onlookers which were inevetably crowding round.
In 2000, in some mountain area in Taiwan, I remember watching the news about 4 Taiwanese farmers who got swept away down a river during a flood. The TV cameras were there and filmed the whole event. In what kind of country do the TV cameras turn up before the emergency services? They didn’t get rescued because the airforce here were arguing about whose responsibility it was to send out a chopper. The farmers, if I remember correctly, were standing in the swollen river for at least an hour before being swept away to drown. Long timers here probably remember that.
If you are a foriegn national, wherever you come from, if you visit the UK and you get injured, unless it is under exceptional circumstances, you will receive free mediacl treatment and care.
In short:
Western countries, crime is perhaps higher but Police and emergency services are better and communities really do care.
In Taiwan, you probably wont become a victim of a major crime. However, if you do, the support and care you will receive will be virtually non-existent and at the very least substandard. If you get lost somewhere, no body will come to find you until it’s too late. And why should they? No one gives a monkeys anyway. You are not their friend, family or guan xi.
In Taiwan, life is cheap. There are marked differences between the Western outlooks on the value of life to the Taiwanese values.
This is the way I see it. Sorry if I’ve gone on a bit.
[quote=“hexuan”]It’s a funny kind of nationalism where you don’t give a shit about your fellow countrymen, or your country, and are constantly saving up for the happy day when you can bugger off.
[/quote]
Not really if somebody gave you something and you weren’t sure if you would have this forever else someone would take it from you… would you invest your time, energy and hope in it… else would you live for yourself and try and come up with an escape plan
For nationalism you need a nation… deep down no matter how the hardcore DPP or TSU guys try to portray Taiwan as being independant by using words such as de facto or claiming this is how it is if you follow the SF agreement… it can not change the reality in most people’s minds that Taiwan is not a nation. How could it be, its status is built on amgiuity and uncertainity… its future hinges on China and the USA…
therefore how can anyone commit to uncertainity … as as long as their is uncertainity no one will commit. Most Taiwanese do not want to change this uncertainity ( status quo) for even more uncertainity or 500 missiles
I guess in some way the Taiwanese have found security in the status quo… they have figured out what they need to do… make money to get out of here and cover your ass
TNT,
Your post actually underlines and supports exactly what hexuan stated.
Dangermouse…just for the record - in the U.S., air rescue and ambulances charge for their services.
Having read this thread, I am curious just how many forumosans have PERSONALLY been struck by a vehicle, beaten, mugged, had their homes burglarized, or experienced some other form of crime in Taiwan. If Taiwan is as bad and as lawless has everyone maintains then I should expect the numbers to be very high…anyone want to make a poll (I don’t know how)?
BFM…you are aware there are different kinds of police in Taiwan aren’t you? Why would the FAP be investigation a traffic incident involving locals? And if the driver of the van had hung around and driven over the old couple for two months I am sure the police would have got that on video tape as well.
I’ve been hit by cars and my wife was recently hit as she crossed a street by a taxi that ran a red light. Two of the places in which I have lived have been burglarized, multiple times (just ask the locals about the frequency of burglaries). I’ve had too many run-ins with idiot drivers and people who believe apparently that laws and regulations, regarding traffic and dogs, for example, are for other people but not for them.
One example of the imbecilic reasoning that persists here is illustrated whenever I walk my dog. I always have Dofu on a leash (lead). Virtually every time we go out, some idiot has his/her dog out off a leash (lead) and often, Dofu is attacked by the other dog and I must separate them. I always say something to the other dog owner. The other dog owner ALWAYS replies that if Dofu harms his/her dog, I will be at fault for not having Dofu muzzled. I respond that I will not muzzle my dog so long as assholes such as he/she do not restrain his/her dog (as per the local regulations) from attacking my dog. I swear, my next dog, if I live in Taiwan long enough, will be an American Pit Bull Terrier. And I will not then move so fast to separate the dogs. The owner who has failed to restrain his/her dog can do the separating of what will be left of his/her dog.
I’m really surprized that you have not encountered any of the things posted about here.
[quote=“Vannyel”]Dangermouse…just for the record - in the U.S., air rescue and ambulances charge for their services.[/quote]Not in the UK they don’t, even if they did, they would still come.[quote]Having read this thread, I am curious just how many forumosans have PERSONALLY been struck by a vehicle, beaten, mugged, had their homes burglarized, or experienced some other form of crime in Taiwan.[/quote]Judging by posts on Forumosa, quite a lot
[quote]BFM…you are aware there are different kinds of police in Taiwan aren’t you? Why would the FAP be investigation a traffic incident involving locals? And if the driver of the van had hung around and driven over the old couple for two months I am sure the police would have got that on video tape as well.[/quote]Being different kinds of “police” is irrelevant, the FAPpers investigate foreigners to the hilt, while deaths and murders are too much trouble. Do you think that is right or wrong ? Because I really can’t tell if you know the difference between right and wrong. I can only guess that you are Taiwanese, or have been too so long you have become so assimilated that you try to defend the undefendable.
Or stack it into a neat pile. :bravo:
I’m pretty that nearly every person on this island has been hit by a vehicle at least once. Most have experienced vehicle accidents multiple times.
And yes, I’ve been robbed several times here. Have you even bothered to read half the posts in this thread, Vannyel?
Yes, mod I have…and so far two people have said they have been victimized - you and Tigerman yet everyone complains about feeling unsafe…it just doesn’t add up to me.
BFM …judging from what I’ve read on forumosa most people haven’t been victimized. And why did you make this statement…“Being different kinds of “police” is irrelevant, the FAPpers investigate foreigners to the hilt, while deaths and murders are too much trouble.” Which deaths and murders are too much trouble? How many deaths and murders go uninvestigated in Taiwan? I don’t understand Chinese so I can’t read the newspapers or understand what is said on television so I don’t know. But I am curious as to how you came to this conclusion.
As for defending the undefendable, I deal in facts, not rumors, or emotional outbursts. 
That is why I asked how many forumosans have been victimized and so far I have two people who have said they have. I just asked four coworkers and none have been burglarized or hit by a vehicle in Taiwan - contrary to mod lang’s belief.
Therefore, I now know of eight people who have not been victims of crimes in Taiwan and two that have. 
As for rescue services, well I have never called them, don’t know anyone that has, so therefore I don’t jump to the conclusion that they won’t come.