Help! Adult class is like pulling teeth!

[quote=“adikarmika”]The suggestions made so far can be successfully applied to small classes of, say, 20 or fewer, but what do you do when you have 60?

I have large classes of engineers sitting in classrooms that were built for a teaching methodology that went out of practice 30 years ago (I’m talking about audio-lingual method in a language lab), and who are only there because English is compulsory.
They are used to a “teacher talk, student listen” approach, and if I ever try to elicit anything from them, only a few brave souls at the front will ever say anything, and even then they will only speak in a low voice that most other students in the class can’t hear.

Any advice or suggestions?[/quote]

I wish I had this problem. I’d have them all stand up,. I’d make them change partners constantly. Tripping over the AV desks would be part of the fun. circulate amongst the standing students , weed out the problems as you circulate.

And then I would don a friggen gas mask cuz everyone knows these types all have serious hali-breath, get in their faces, and poke them in the chests and tell them to use mouth wash because the next class will be even more intense. stuff your shirt with padding and get all barrel-chested on their asses.

I don’t suppose there’s any rule that says I can’t kick students out of class, but it’s just such a new concept for me in an adult class. Previously, my students have always been there by (limited) choice, so they weren’t resistant to learning… but these guys :aiyo: … (I say guys, but there’s one poor girl in the class who sits by herself and hasn’t yet uttered a word) …, they really are a new experience.

I don’t want to have to start treating them like kids. As you said, uni students are adults, even if they are a bunch of socially immature engineers. If you keep treating them like kids, how are they going to grow up? (Maybe I shouldn’t be punishing them for sleeping in class. At least they’re not disturbing anybody.)

Engineers do eventually grow up, don’t they?

Ah, the “old change partners trick”. Good thinking 99.

[quote=“adikarmika”]
Engineers do eventually grow up, don’t they?[/quote]

Sic me on them for a bit. I’m looking for a job. You can videotape me bodyslamming them with my tigerblood torpedos of teaching. Then I can use the video as a demo for potential gigs.

I am currently looking for something as challenging as this. If anyone knows any good gigs like this (no kids) do PM me and see my resume in my signature.

[quote=“GuyInTaiwan”]Maybe you’re not allowed to kick them out because of the powers that be, but it really just shows how unprofessional the university is then…

I’ve figured out now that if I want to be seen as somewhat similarly to the Taiwanese teachers at my school, then I need to brook no bullshit. Of course, I’ll never be seen the same way, and there’s all sorts of stuff I’m sure kids get away with simply because I don’t speak Chinese fluently.[/quote]
Actually I’ve walked by a fair number of university classrooms in Taiwan and seen the lecturer droning on at the front into a microphone, with the students chatting or sleeping or texting or whatever. I think part of the problem I have in class is that I’m NOT similar to some of their other teachers and I actually expect them to do something, be polite, and shut up at the right moments. I gather this is unusual in some programs.

Note that the same doesn’t apply in high school, where the teachers do generally seem to be a bit more hard-ass and the kids don’t quite have the same sense of entitlement yet. Unfortunately, those same high school teachers seem to tell their students that university’s an easy ride, a notion that I quickly try to disabuse them of.

I had an experience a couple of years ago at a university that was quite illuminating and refreshing. It was an extension class, meaning that everyone had paid cash up front to be there, so there was more of a ‘service provider’ relationship than there was a ‘teacher as boss’ situation. But still…

One woman was causing trouble, and I found her sitting in the corner copying words from her electronic dictionary into her notebook, while everyone else was doing group work. She was basically telling me that she wasn’t going to follow instructions, that she was the boss. This is the core issue. It’s not about social skills. If students are sleeping, chatting, or otherwise goofing off in your class, it’s because they think they can. If you have no authority, then you can’t teach.

So I took her outside, and explained politely that she was in the wrong class. I absolutely refused to discuss, negotiate, or even listen to anything she said. It’s a simple situation, either I’m the boss, or you’re in the wrong class. She tried to justify, tried to make promises, but I wasn’t having any of it. I had already made up my mind that it was time to make a stand.

So I packed her off to the office with instructions to go and complain about me, making it crystal clear that there was no way on this Earth she was going to be allowed back into my class. I was very polite about it, not visibly angry. (Actually, I had already decided I didn’t want the job badly enough to put up with that shit, so it was more a case of principle than being personally offended.)

Amazingly, I was not even asked about this by the administrators. I was quite prepared to tell them that if they didn’t respect my judgement then they should find another teacher, but instead they just accepted the situation.

Since then, I’ve been very relaxed about difficult students. I have, on a couple of occasions, given people polite statements of principle: in my class, I decide what happens, and if you don’t like that then you’re in the wrong class. Sometimes they change their tune, sometimes they don’t come back. But it’s never stressful for me, because I’m always prepared to get fired in order to preserve my self-respect. Once that decision is made, and internalised, the pressure is off and you’re actually able to be “disinterested” about the outcome.

So instead of battles for control, we get occasional situations where I’m telling people what I need and can listen to - and think about - what they need. Students play up in class for a reason, and if you can step back a little bit instead of feeling affronted, you can think about ways to deal with those issues.

Imagine if your whole experience of education was some authority figure standing at the front, telling you what to do. At some point you might want to start testing the limits a bit. If you’re not in the class of your own free will, and your mind is free to wander (eg if you don’t understand enough to know what is going on) then it’s normal to start trying to impose your own preferences on that situation. Ulltimately, in most cases, it’s the fault of the system and the teacher if they’re not engaged. Something is not working, and your job is to change it - or quit. Or just roll with it.

There will always be individuals that cause trouble, due to their own personality problems. The example above is one of those, and I wasn’t being paid enough to focus on straightening her out - even if I had the skill and it didn’t inconvenience anyone else in the class. So I think it was fair to just send her away to find a class that she was comfortable in.

But if the whole class is doing it, it’s down to the environment they’re in, which is your responsibility. You need to have their respect and attention, their commitment, before you can do anything. Kicking out the worst offender goes a long way towards establishing control, if you can get away with it.

(In case the above sounds patronising, I have to admit that I’ve just handed a difficult class to someone else because I don’t have the enthusiasm or energy to manage it any more. The problem is not the students, it’s the large group and long time, and I can’t be bothered dealing with it any more.)

The problem students and I both know they are in the wrong class. But there ain’t a lower one, and they have to do English coz the MOE says they have to sit the GEPT.

I’m not in any danger of being fired, but I don’t want to be just another in a long line of teachers who have essentially failed the students in the sense of not having instilled some insentive to learn.

Perhaps some of them see English as somehow a second-rate subject … you know, like the way some “hard” scientists look down on the humanities. So they don’t think it is worth taking seriously. Learning a second language is just not real academic work, coz its not science. I did both maths and the history of ideas as an undergrad, and I know which one presented me with real challenges.

Exactly. I’m fairly free to do what I want, so I see it as an opportunity to try to find out what works - whether that be being a tough guy, or trying to give those students who have given up on English enough confidence to make an effort when I ask for it.

'll try it and see how it works.

I haven’t had a class that I wasn’t eventually bring around to my way of doing things (actually, that’s not true - I did have a class who treated the whole thing as a joke, but I failed half of them … they complained, but the Chair of the department fully supported me and said that they should have been failed earlier), but it’s just so much bloody hard work.

I hear you. I’ve pretty much reached the end of the road with it. My dad would call it “shovelling shit uphill.”

There have to better ways of earning a crust. I’m too old for manwhoring, and moderating forumosa doesn’t pay very well. Suggestions, anyone?

I hear you. I’ve pretty much reached the end of the road with it. My dad would call it “shovelling shit uphill.”

There have to better ways of earning a crust. I’m too old for manwhoring, and moderating forumosa doesn’t pay very well. Suggestions, anyone?[/quote]

Real man-whoring! You’ve got the hair and you’ve got the figure! Try putting an ad in the papers!

lostinasia: I was coming at it from the perspective of a junior high school teacher, where the kids still have a spark in them and their teachers can, and will, be hard on them. From all that I’ve read on these fora, university is like a day care centre in this country. It’s just about the only age group I haven’t taught in Taiwan, and I have zero desire to do so.

Loretta: I’m having a very flat day emotionally, and your posts are normally quite uplifting, so the more depressed tone today is really doing my head in.

I try to set a certain bar in my classes where we will do interesting and fun things, but the kids have to put some effort in. I’m not going to give if they’re not willing to give in return. That’s very emotionally draining otherwise. Many of my kids are really starting to figure that out and probably 80-90% of the seventh and eighth graders are pulling their weight. With the ninth graders, it’s more like 50%, up from probably 20% when I first came here. There are still some constant and slightly malicious troublemakers amongst the ninth graders and I’m done with being nice to them. I know that their other teachers have issues with them too, and that there’s the possibility that we’re all bloody useless, but they complain of the same issues that I do.

This morning, I woke up and while I was lying in bed, I was thinking about this whole thing. By the sounds of what you’ve written, it seems like (at least when you wrote it), you feel the same way. I want to do my job well, but I don’t want to do my job. If someone handed me a big bag of money, I’d walk away. Perhaps I would come in and do a few select private lessons with some students here, but I wouldn’t work here full-time. Most of the kids I teach are nice enough kids, and my colleagues are nice enough, but there just isn’t an air of seriousness here. I’m six weeks into the semester here and I still haven’t got an accurate timetable. I’m scoring all sorts of extra free periods every week because no one can organise things properly or tell the students and their homeroom teachers that they have a small class with me at a particular time on a particular day each week (or, as with today, no one bothered to tell me the kids have exams today and tomorrow – so today and tomorrow, I have only one special class), or because whenever there’s some extra activity that needs to be done at school (rehearsals, test preparation, outside reading programmes in Chinese, a wood carving class once per fortnight, etc.), my classes are almost invariably the ones that get cut. It’s really slack, and that’s cool in a sense, but it’s not serious.

In general, this school isn’t serious. My wife was telling me recently that at one of the after school assemblies, my supervisor (who is a director) was telling the kids they’re really slack. Yet how many of my colleagues do much preparation for their classes? How many turn up to class on time? Why would they then expect the students to study hard, put a lot of effort into their classes and be on time and attentive in class? Back in Australia and England, I did a lot of sub work, so I’ve seen probably well over a hundred different schools. After a while, I could tell, after arriving at the reception and talking to the daily coordinator, what sort of school I was going to be teaching at that day because there was just a certain tone to the place and the person. You just knew that certain places meant business. The tone to this place when I arrived a week before semester began was that my supervisor, despite having several months’ notice, hadn’t found anywhere for us to live. In fact, he wasn’t even here! Nor was the principal. Further to that, because the school was still trying to fill three positions (at one point they were even seriously considering my wife – who studied commercial design – as a chemistry teacher), they still hadn’t worked out the timetable. So, I came here a week early, cleaned up my room a bit, and then spent the rest of the week doing nothing because there was nothing for me to do.

The person who runs this programme for this county says that I am the quietest person in the programme because I’ve never sent him an email or rung him to complain. I’ve asked my supervisor several times to do certain things. I’ve hinted about others. He’s not a stupid guy. He just came to tell me, after the fact, that I don’t have classes today or tomorrow because of the exams. I already found this out from the students twenty-five minutes before he came to tell me when I went to find out why my students weren’t in class. At some level, and a pretty obvious one to me, I’m just not important. If I were to contact the coordinator of the programme in this county to tell him all of the above and about ten times more, what would it achieve? Even if he were really motivated to change things, what power does he actually have over my superior or the general ethos at my school? Even if he could twist arms, what would that do for my working relationship at the school?

I have a whole lot of ideas about a whole lot of things, including really trying to get some professional development going in this programme, but I don’t think any of this really matters because this isn’t professional to begin with. There are a whole lot of other ideas I have, but unless they’d be window dressing, no one would really put any effort into them.

When I first came here, my supervisor told me that he felt like the previous two years with the teacher before me had been a bit of a waste. Why is that? Is it because she was constrained by the system here and couldn’t live up to her potential (and apparently, she was quite good friends with one of the other teachers here who told my wife that the previous teacher used to complain a lot about my supervisor)? Was it because she didn’t know what she was doing? Well, if she didn’t know what she was doing, what were the support mechanisms in place, especially professional development? Maybe she just wasn’t right for the job. In that case, what’s going on with the recruitment process and why isn’t Taiwan going about trying to recruit really top-notch teachers?

The answer is because none of this – and none of us – is taken seriously. All over Taiwan, there’s money being thrown left and right at these fucking English Villages, despite no one really knowing what the hell those are good for, if they’re good for anything, rather than saying let’s get some big names in EFL to come along, set up a really excellent programme and train or recruit teachers, including with the Taiwanese English teachers.

So I look at it all and ask myself what I should be doing about this for myself. A few months ago, I was actively looking for particular types of jobs abroad, but even if they have better conditions and are more professional and aren’t as full of crap as what’s going on here, there are other issues to consider, namely that my wife would quite possibly be a real fish out of water and very socially isolated elsewhere, particularly if she weren’t working (and she most likely wouldn’t be unless she could start a small business or run an online business). To complicate things, we’ve recently moved to a proper house with a proper garden and all of that jazz in a nice little town. Some of the locals are real hicks, but most are nice, and some of my students drop by to help in the garden and my wife cooks for them. We really like it where we live right now. Yet if I decide to stay here, in the (un)professional side of my life, this is probably (95%+ probability) as good as it is ever going to get. Short of eventually getting a principal who a) really knows about EFL, and b) really cares and isn’t a show pony trying to make a big name for himself like my previous principal – and why would such a principal be at a school in the middle of nowhere in Taidong County? – nothing is really going to change here. I am still going to be dealing with all of the same stuff and I will never get a promotion within this system, and so have some say over it.

My only saving grace is that I have a decent amount of money invested and continue to save and add more to that, so it’s quite likely that in ten or so years, I will be able to walk away from this and live very comfortably (though not to a developed nation, obviously). In the meantime, I want to do this job well out of a sense of professional duty and personal pride, but I don’t want to do it.

Well, that was quite cathartic!

'll try it and see how it works.quote]

Spoke to the director this morning about kicking students out. While he didn’t say I couldn’t, the problem was that the student might complain that he didn’t pass because he wasn’t allowed to attend the class. I got the impression this was a problem that the director would rather not have to deal with. :aiyo:

Well, rather him have a problem than me.

I don’t want to make it sound all bad in the universities - typically it’s the occasional non-English major course that drives me crazy, when I’m supposed to be teaching 4 skills to 64 students, their levels range from absolute beginner to borderline fluent, and they begin the semester not caring at all. Most of my classes (English majors, conversation, speeches, composition…) are great, and also I’m a “normal” teacher so I seldom have to deal with my class being treated less seriously. Occasional students may think the foreigner’s class is a bit of a joke, but they smarten up by the third or fourth week. From talking to my colleagues I don’t think the awful classes behave that way because of me - they just do it with everyone.

I’ve been in high schools before, and I remember what you’re talking about: half my class would be thirty minutes late because some other teacher wanted them to stand in the courtyard ineffectually brushing the same bare patch of concrete for a while. It drove me nuts: how could I possibly get the students to take the course seriously when obviously other teachers didn’t?

It can be rough, can’t it, when you want to do a good job but you get the sense you’re a shmuck for even trying. Good luck with the current situation.

Regarding University Classes,

I’ve been told that students work so hard to get through high school, that by the time they reach University, they are suddenly lazy and don’t put forth the same effort. Anyone care to respond?

Once I had a painfully shy student- as in she’d open her mouth to say something and nothing would come out. It was her time to read and all you could hear were a couple of breathy squeaks from her direction. Her name was Shanny. At the end of the class I fired up my computer and showed this video.

I even paused it and transcribed Rhianna’s little asides (‘just picture them naked’ and such).
Kiss of death, right? Midway through the video I realized what a bitch I was being and immediately regretted showing the video.

Buuuuuuut… next class Shy Shanny showed up, gave me that cute lil shy smile and did her darndest to ‘use her outside voice’. Sometimes you think something won’t work and then somehow it does…

Edit: aww fuck how do you embed videos? youtubebb3 with url? I’m gonna try that.

[quote=“stig”]Regarding University Classes,

I’ve been told that students work so hard to get through high school, that by the time they reach University, they are suddenly lazy and don’t put forth the same effort. Anyone care to respond?[/quote]

Well, we all thought that in the first semester of year one.

Then roughly week 6 of semester two hit and we all went :astonished:

Then of course when we finally got through that, we started getting slammed by week 5 of Semester One Year Two.

Now it’s Semester Two Year Two, we’re in Week Three, and we’ve barely had time to breathe since Day 4 or 5 or so.

I’m in one of the better universities, so it could just be my uni. But all of my classes which have nothing to do with my major (P.E., the general classes we take) I’m really not doing more than I have to, because I’m working so damn hard for my major classes. My two generals are Chemistry and Media Studies (which is in English); Chemistry I spend doing homework for a different class (the teacher is lovely and has given me the handouts in English, which I’ll be studying from the night before the test. A good deal of people spend this class catching up on sleep) and Media Studies I pay attention to roughly 70% of the time, because I want to get a 90 in something (shouldn’t be too hard in that class) to help pull up my overall grade average. By ‘pay attention’ I mean that I keep track of what’s going on (unless it’s a classmate talking about something they obviously have no clue about, which is likely to happen a lot from now on as the teacher’s doing a cop-out and just making us all give ‘extra credit’ presentations for the rest of the semester) and stick my hand up every so often, so the teacher thinks I have an opinion and am being a ‘serious’ student.

I get out of mandatory English by virtue of my passport, but everyone’s really just mucking around in it. They do what they have to to pass, but not much more because they’re already exhausted by the mountain of homework and exam revision they have to do on top of organising the class/society/association parade/rehearsal/ceremony etc.

My recommendation for getting uni students to pay attention in mandatory class is to teach them stuff like ‘scanning skills’ or basic composition that they can use in their other classes or for research, and don’t give them too much homework. In first year the teacher wanted everyone to read ‘Great Expectations’ (a simplified version for English learners)… I didn’t even get through that (just couldn’t get into it). I know teachers are there to teach, but as a student you kind of have this ‘This isn’t even part of my COURSE’ attitude when teachers want you to do mountains of work for a non-major compulsory (like my History teacher, who would assign homework based on reading a 40page essay on figures from the Byzantinian Empire. Nice guy, but I will never take any of his classes again).

lostinasia: Yeah. Thanks for your comments. I have one colleague who was going to have words with my supervisor, but I declined the offer. Some of my colleagues are decent enough and will support me on some things, such as a clown in my class the other day who used one of my nice cushions as a flat surface to rest his paper on and ended up leaving marker ink all over it. His homeroom teacher actually called me up that evening to tell me his father had gone all the way to Taidong City to buy me a new cushion. It’s just that there’s a minority here who are either disorganised or actively work to undermine me.

Very much looking forward to the long weekend in Taidong County this weekend (it’s an aboriginal holiday, and they have some sort of aboriginal carnival with aboriginal sports). I only had a one day weekend last weekend to make up for this weekend. Then there’s Tomb Sweeping. It breaks it up nicely, and we should finally have the last of our vegetables in by the end of this weekend, so life outside of school is good. May is going to be rough, though spring should finally be upon us (it’s been playing peekaboo for the past few weeks). I think there are no national holidays.

Dude, I’ve told you before! You mustn’t talk about your students like that.

Loretta: I wasn’t. I was talking about the Forumosa Happy Hour.