Hey Christians (or other theists) -What do you believe in?

I have to wonder how a man who can say this:

Can say this:

The atheist Sam Harris, in his scathing attack on religious faith in his book, “The End of Faith,” spends the last chapter…can anyone guess? After he lambasts Christianity and Islam…? The last chapter of his book is essentially a plug for Buddhism, which he considers to be a very rational religion and whose meditation techniques he has practiced for many years.

As I said before, I have never studied Buddhism. What little I do know comes from books about Chinese culture and history. But a quick search online reveals several aspects of Buddhism that are obviously dogma, no more or less irrational than anything you’d find in the Abrahamic religions. So what’s the story here? A genuine belief that Buddhism is scientific or at least highly rational (rational enough to plug for in your vitriolic tome against theism)? A prejudice against Christianity and love for all things non-Christian? Inquiring minds want to know!

Sure. But a Methodist wouldn’t want his/her child to become Mormon or a Buddhist.[/quote]

I don’t see why that’s necessarily so. At least a mormon reads the bible. So he’s got a shot at heaven, in some interpretations. And if there’s no hell, then why not a buddhist?

Actually, you misinterpreted. I’m only maintaining there are many rational beliefs. Different sects have different beliefs about what does and doesn’t qualify you for salvation.[/quote]

Sorry for misinterpreting. I am trying to understand. So you do think there is only one denominational path to salvation?

Would you like your child to have his arm ripped off by a chainsaw? Even if you know later on he’ll eventually go to heaven, you’d still try to prevent him from being mangled by a chainsaw, right? It is necessary to have pain in life to learn and grow, but not all pain is necessary. And a trip to hell certainly isn’t necessary by any Christian standard that I know of.

And again, my beliefs are not orthodox ones. [/quote]

The chainsaw analogy is a nice touch! :smiley: But seriously, I’ve gotten very confused by your statements about hell, so that’s why I think I’m off track. I thought the fire and brimstone hell was gone. Presumably that’s what the chainsaw is supposed to imply. If hell isn’t a painful place, I would have thought a different analogy would have been used.

You tell me that your beliefs are not orthodox ones. OK. I would admit it’s also unorthodox for a strongly religious person to raise his child without religion. I’m wondering why it is that no mainstream religion raises kids without indoctrination and waits for them to choose their own path. Presumably, if their denomination is the only one leading to salvation, as most religions maintain, the child would be smart enough to figure that out, and he’d have god helping guide him in the right direction.

I don’t see why that’s necessarily so. At least a mormon reads the bible. So he’s got a shot at heaven, in some interpretations. And if there’s no hell, then why not a buddhist?[/quote]
According to Methodists as far as I understand the Methodist position (please someone correct me if I have wrong information), Mormons and Buddhists (at the least, those that don’t convert to Protestantism after being preached to) will go to hell.

Mormons read the Bible, but that’s not good enough. They believe in the wrong Jesus since they have unorthodox beliefs about Jesus and God. Only orthodox belief in God actually counts as faith, which is why Muslims, Mormons, and Jehovah’s Witnesses won’t be saved even though they believe in aspects of the same God, too. (Again, any Methodists who want to correct this if it is wrong, please do so.)

Theism is not a big happy family. :smiley:

Misinterpreting is an honest mistake. I’m sure it’s largely due to the way I’m speaking from positions other than my own probably more often than I am discussing my own beliefs.

My answer is: Yes and no. Everybody gets salvation to some extent, while salvation meaning living in a perfect state of happiness with God only goes to the faithful. But this is certainly an unorthodox belief.

Literal fire and brimstone, generally yes. Although there are sects that believe in the literalness of the fire and brimstone. However, fire and brimstone are meant to convey a sense of suffering on an incredible scale. So, hell is still a place/state of incredible suffering for many sects even if they don’t believe in the physical burning fire concept.

As Fortigurn mentioned, many other Christian denominations have rejected hell as a place of suffering. This non-suffering version of hell is ceasing to exist. Christian churches that do not believe in spirits in the non-corporeal ghost-type sense generally view this lack of existence as hell. This view is consistent with the sense of the original words in the original texts.

You think children are smart enough to figure it out on their own? You must not be a teacher.

A few points on this:

  1. Most Christians believe they are commanded to teach others, particularly their children, about God. It’s part of serving your fellow man. (Ironic for those of you who hate missionaries.)
  2. Parents cannot really avoid indoctrinating their kids. Even if they are trying to let the children think for themselves, the very acts involved in trying to teach the kid to think for themselves will bias the child.
  3. For religious belief to be rational, it needs a basis in experience. The child needs spiritual experiences so that he/she can develop faith for themselves rather than just on the basis of what their parents tell them. You don’t get that while playing Playstation.

It makes no sense to not encourage children to follow the same beliefs. The same is true for any religion which requires certain belief and practices for salvation.

My understanding of the general Chinese Daoist/Buddhist notion of death/rebirth is that the gods and demons of Hell do indeed calculate your every sin, and there is a prescribed (horrific) punishment for every sin. Afterwards the goddess Meng Po gives you some potion to make you forget your life, and her two demons, Life-Is-Short and Death-Comes-Swiftly (or Death-Has-Gradations) indeed calculate, based on your sins and good deeds, what you will be in your next life. Death-Comes-Swiftly even carries an abacus to make sure he gets everything right. However, I have never studied Buddhism outside of China-related stuff, so I defer to you scholars on this one.[/quote]Interesting. I don’t know a great deal about Chinese Buddhism, but what you wrote sounds more like Daoism. If it is from some school of Buddhism, then it would be meant figuratively, as there are no “truly existent” entities.

I do realise that there’s a good deal of Buddhist/Daoist syncretism though I see that more as a Buddhist influence on Daoism than a true mix. In fact mixing Buddhism with other religions is technically and pragmatically impossible, though there are a fair few people who’ve tried to do it! Religious practitioners should recognise the goodness in other religious traditions, but that’s not at all the same thing as pic ‘n’ mixing from various religions.

bob: if you read about the wheel of life and the six realms you’ll find out a bit about Buddhist conceptions of hell. But that has to be taken in an intelligent way. It’s logical that as beings can create the causes for temporary states of great pleasure, they can also create great suffering for themselves, both in this life and subsequently. That suffering is temporary too though it doesn’t feel temporary to those who are experiencing it. I think the “hell realms” are a kind of hallucinatory state.

Sometimes Christian conceptions of hell have been used as a tool to judge and control others. But Buddhist ones are not meant to be taken that way at all. Compassion for all beings includes those who are having hell-like experiences.

[quote=“gao_bo_han”]I have to wonder how a man who can say this:

Can say this:

The atheist Sam Harris, in his scathing attack on religious faith in his book, “The End of Faith,” spends the last chapter…can anyone guess? After he lambasts Christianity and Islam…? The last chapter of his book is essentially a plug for Buddhism, which he considers to be a very rational religion and whose meditation techniques he has practiced for many years.

As I said before, I have never studied Buddhism. What little I do know comes from books about Chinese culture and history. But a quick search online reveals several aspects of Buddhism that are obviously dogma, no more or less irrational than anything you’d find in the Abrahamic religions. So what’s the story here? A genuine belief that Buddhism is scientific or at least highly rational (rational enough to plug for in your vitriolic tome against theism)? A prejudice against Christianity and love for all things non-Christian? Inquiring minds want to know![/quote]

That was me. You were correct in pointing out earlier that I am no scholar. My understanding of Buddhism for example comes almost entirely from what I would call “Buddhist psychology” as described by the Dalai Lama in “The Art of Happiness” and “Ethics for the New Millenium” in which he describes Buddhism as the science of the mind. It is the mind watching itself “very” closely and admitting with complete honesty the situation in which it finds itself. Driven by desire and the tendency to compare it becomes aggressive, competitive, jealous, sometimes hostile. This works in complete opposition to the deeper need to connect with people on the basis of love, respect and compassion. If you look at your own psychology you will discover this to be true, or not. Buddhism doesn’t dictate anything but simply encourages people to think clearly and be emotionally honest with themselves.

The theological aspects of Buddhism, whatever they are, don’t interest me much and to be perfectly frank I don’t think they interest the Dalai Lama much either. He is a figure head and so cannot express himself honestly on the issue but he will go so far as to say that if all the pomp and pagentry surrounding the “religion” disappered tomorrow it would not make a bit of difference.

[quote=“gao_bo_han”][quote=“bob”]You are contraditing yourself. First you say…

Then you say…

Medical science abandoned the normal/insane dichotomy a century ago.

Which is it?[/quote]

A fair point. I am using the general understanding the term insane. As in, someone who has lost control of his mental faculties. But lurkky referenced two people who apparently believe we should not use modern psychology/psychiatry to analyze past prophets, shamans, etc., and I just felt like noting that modern medicine has long abandoned the idea of the mind as being normal or insane. Applying modern psychology/psychiatry to historical figures would not result in labelling them “insane.” However, it’s undeniable that some people have lost control of themselves, and the fact I can’t name their particular mental illness or illnesses does not change that. But I doubt such people could write coherent books.

Some Christian churches preach fire and brimstone, but plenty focus instead on God’s love and compassion. The idea of a supernatural protector looking out for you and keeping your best interests at heart can be very comforting. The church environment itself can be very, very positive, and provide a unique experience that can’t be found anywhere else, at least for most people. And when bad stuff happens -a wife gets cancer, a child falls off a cliff, etc.- people really need to believe the world is something other than the cold cruel place that it is. And the other side of the coin is the fire and brimstome stuff you hear in fundamentalist Churches. This is what philosophers call the “double bind.” Christians want to love and be loved by God, and fear not doing so.[/quote]

I think that an element of insanity runs through the entire human experience and most of that insanity comes from the anxiety created by our understanding of time and the absolute reality of ethics. If we look forward we see the inevitability of suffering and death, we see that we have choices that might affect when death will occur and how much suffering we will do in the meantime but have no way of knowing with any certainty what the outcome of our choices will be. We know also that the things we do will affect other people and given our innate compassion for them we naturally feel guilty for the wrongs we commit. That is the soul of man and I doubt that it has changed at all over the last two thousand years. The prophets catered to man’s anxieties with stories of forgiveness and everlasting life. They either made up these stories or they honestly believed them because they had experienced a temporary split from reality. It doesn’t suprise me at all that such sensitive people would write such beautiful texts. Look at me, I’m nuts, but I wrote this.

I don’t agree with that at all. I think most people’s view on life rarely contradicts observable reality. Instead, when they find that whatever they think or believe is incompatible with what their senses tell them, they’ll alter their belief in such a way that it could possibly be right— even if they would normally not come to that conclusion another way.

Bob, this would be great stuff to talk about on the atheist thread. I have similar beliefs, but mine are predicated on a belief in God. I’d be interested in discussing that with the absence of a belief in God.

You forgot to include possibility 1 and the combinations of 1, 2, and 3…

I think you just made gao_bo_han’s point for him. :laughing:

I don’t agree with that at all. I think most people’s view on life rarely contradicts observable reality. Instead, when they find that whatever they think or believe is incompatible with what their senses tell them, they’ll alter their belief in such a way that it could possibly be right— even if they would normally not come to that conclusion another way.[/quote]

Your view of God contradicts observable reality.

Fred Smith’s stated views on global warming contradict observable reality.

Every neurotic who thinks that he can avoid his real problems by focusing compulsively on something other than his real problems has a view that contradicts observable reality.

Newscasters who encourage people to pray at every natural disaster have a view that contradicts observable reality.

Young Earth Creationists have a view that contradicts observable reality.

People who believe in reincarnation have a view that contradicts observable reality.

People who believe in life after death have a view that contradicts observable reality.

Every schizophrenic on the block has a delusion or two that contradicts observable reality.

The kid who thinks he has a chance in hell of stopping his alcoholic dad from drinking has a view that contradicts observable reality.

In trying to talk sense with you I have a view that contradicts observable reality.

In suggesting that we try to organize these conversations along some logical framework such as theists belive this and atheists believe that you have a view that contradicts observable reality.

People who think that pornography is a victimless crime have a view that contradicts observable reality.

People who still think that the War in Iraq was “a good idea” have a view that contradicts observable reality.

People who believe that the death penalty reduces crime have a view that contradicts observable reality.

People who think the “war on drugs” can be won have a view that contradicts observable reality.

People who preach abstinance over condom use as a way of preventing Aids have a view that contradicts observable reality.

People who think that the ethical impulse depends somehow on God have a view that contradicts observable reality.

People who think they can improve their foriegn language capability without making an effort have a view that contradicts observable reality.

And so on…

Interesting isn’t it how many of those examples (I count nine out of twenty - but then again there is nothing to stop someone from being schizophrenic, compulsive, addicted to porn, alcoholic, foreign language students etc. so of course the count could be way higher) above describe views held predominantly by the Christian far right. Hmmm, makes you wonder…

I’ll say one thing I know to be in conformance with observable reality. The old bob is BACK!

Thanks gao bo han. I was beginning to lose faith in myself here. :wink:

OK, I think this is the crux of the issue. Atheists/agnostics/irreligious people/skeptics do not consider the above reasons to be rational or sufficient.

Believing that supernatural events occurred thousands of years because mommy and daddy said so is not rational. When we’re children we believe lots of things our parents teach us without question, but when we become mature, reasonable adults we stop blindly accepting their teachings. I completely agree with you that 50% or more of all religious belief originates from parental teaching, but I do not believe that is a rational reason to believe in miracles that are alleged to have happened millennia ago.

Which brings us to religious experience. Anyone who has had a religious experience, myself included, knows how incredibly compelling they can be. I really felt like I could feel God’s presence. No amount of scientific research could possibly refute religious experience. Even if we knew exactly what was occurring in the brain at the time of the experience, that would in no way disprove the reality of the experience. Trying to explain religious experience to someone who has never had one is like trying to explain color to a blind person, and I sympathize with the frustration that so many theists feel when trying to do so. In fact, I empathize, because I used to be one of them.

Having said that, I do not think we can base religious faith, particularly faith that makes specific claims about the world –there is a God, and he has such and such characteristics; Jesus was his son; Jesus performed such and such miracles; Jesus rose from the dead- on the feelings we derive from religious experience, despite the overwhelming strength of those feelings. To phrase it differently, religious experience can enter a rational discussion of belief only insofar as it produces objectively verifiable evidence. For instance, let’s say that a girl has a revelation that the Shroud of Turin can be found at a specific cave in Pakistan, or somewhere. It is found, and a group of archeologists confirms its authenticity. Let’s say this girl is 6 years old, cannot read, has never traveled, is of average intelligence, and whose favorite activity is playing with dolls. Let’s say she has another revelation, this time about the location of the True Cross, and once again it is found in the exact place she says it will be, and its authenticity is also confirmed. Now imagine she has another revelation and another, determining the location of over two hundred Biblical artifacts. I would consider that very, very strong evidence that there is a God, in the least.

The trouble is that in reality, religious experience produces widely divergent beliefs. Sufi Muslims, Hasidic Jews, and Charismatic Christians have religious experiences on a daily basis, and yet many of their beliefs are inherently contradictory. We cannot possibly disprove the reality of their experiences, and yet as objective observers neither can we base our beliefs about the world on them. Carl Sagan once said that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I agree, and religious experience is simply not the extraordinary evidence that we skeptics demand.

Respectfully,

Gao

Sorry, Bob. No, it doesn’t. Nothing I have stated can be contradicted by what another sees. You might say you don’t see God or angels. But, guess what? I say the same thing.

If you think you can observe any of my unobservable beliefs, then I’m afraid you’re the one who’s got a disconnect with reality.

Sorry, I haven’t followed the teachings of Fred Smith much. I’m not an anti-any-particular-Forumosan. But, most likely, his views aren’t actually in contradiction with observable reality. He probably doesn’t look at the polar ice caps and say they are getting bigger when they are getting smaller. He probably looks at different data and/or weighs evidence differently according to his own particular view, and that may or may not be entirely rational. (I don’t know at all.) But I doubt it is actually insane.

Nope. That’s not actually observable reality. Belief in a potential future is not reality. If they think, “wow, by not focusing on my problems earlier I no longer have problems now” yet they clearly still have the same problems, then they are experiencing some level of insanity, but not until then.

How does encouraging someone to pray conflict with observable reality?? Unless the newscaster is at the epicenter of an earth-quake which is located at the Center for Praying for the Prevention of Earthquakes where people constantly pray for no earthquakes, and then the newscaster goes on to say that praying for the prevention of earthquakes is obviously effective, then that isn’t actually insane.

Possibly, but the key is that they are disputing the observations. However, as long as they see the same data everyone else sees, their means of interpreting and valuing the data does not actually make them insane. They are vulnerable to attacks on their objectivity, and even rationality in some cases, but not their sanity for the most part.

Actually, no. You shouldn’t have said “every”. It is possible to be diagnosed with schizophrenia but not have hallucinations or delusions. You only need to of about 5 symptoms to be diagnosed as schizophrenic, and hallucination and delusion are only two of them.

You can’t observe a chance or the future. He might be grossly mistaken. And he may even be delusional, but that still is not a disconnect with reality unless the false belief is pathological.

You’re right. You haven’t been making much sense. That’s the view that contradicts reality. :raspberry:

See the above statement about making sense. You might as well invoke the Chewbacca defense.

Only when they go and look for themselves. As far as they see, everybody is happy and nobody is getting hurt. If they look closer and see where people get hurt and then pathologically still cannot process that people are getting hurt, then there’s a view that contradicts observable reality.

What is or is not a “good idea” is based on a subjective valuation. That combined with different evidence available to different people affects observable reality. If they don’t observe it, it can’t be observable reality for them.

You’re basing that idea on statistics and some faulty logic. But even if it were certainly true, most people can’t “see” the results of this proposition.

Again, bad logic. Thinking “there are no drugs” when the person in question can go outside and see them would be, but simply a belief that the war can be won is not something that can actually be observed.

Actually, that is perfectly in line with logic and observable reality. People who don’t have any sex don’t get AIDS from sex. Thinking using a condom is more effective than abstinence in light of medical statistics to the contrary would potentially be a disconnect from reality.

Thinking people will actually listen to you, and that it is better not to allow any condom at all, however, is naive. Still not insane, though.

Not observable.

Depends on what you mean by effort, and depends on if you mean they believe they have progressed without effort when they haven’t, and if such a reality is actually observable.

… absolutely suck?

Bob, you’ve shown nothing but your own inability to properly apply the term “insane” or “observable reality” to a situation.

Well I believe that god is a stalker.

god wants you to love without questioning gods reasons… you must do as god says or god will smite you down and kill you.

god the stalker.

i belived in being an altar boy for years. yep good catholic upbringing. those fooking big canldes wigh a ton at easter… early stength conditioning needed thenyou get introduced to early alcohol abuse on sherry.

then there’s my mothers motto god helps those who help themselves. ( but god help those who get caught )
I took the collection plates and removed the dirty coins and crumpled dirty notes. the church needs clean money. I needed to get paid bein an altar boy isnt voluntary.

after what young lad in the 1960’s and 1970’s needs to be seen in a red and white frock???

yeah i belive in confession too… at least sneaking in and hearing a few of them… nothing spectacular unfortunately.what does god believe in answer me that!!

Our ability to be creative is proof that we are gods too.

OK, I think this is the crux of the issue. Atheists/agnostics/irreligious people/skeptics do not consider the above reasons to be rational or sufficient.[/quote]
There are two different positions:
1- Those that don’t think the above are sufficient to convince them to believe in it.
2- Those that don’t think the above are sufficient for the belief to be rational.

I agree that when we are adults it is not rational. But when we are children it is the only rational choice. It is the only one that fits in with our life experience.

And I agree that if a belief in God is just a case of continuing to believe what your parents told you with no other evidence to confirm what they said, then that belief in God is irrational. It’s a case of blind faith.

Right.

Then you truly can empathize. As you said, it is compelling. And that by itself, I think is enough to make a continued belief in whatever it is you believe rational. Not just possible, but actually rational to believe in. Whereas, for people who have never had such an experience such a belief is not rational. The lack of any spiritual experience means there is not sufficient reason to believe in a particular religion.

Now we are back to disagreeing. “objectively verifiable evidence” is scientific evidence. Rationality does not require that quality of evidence.

In a discussion of belief (not observable fact), personal experience is a valid point of reference. It is not proof that can be offered, but relating what you personally experienced is something another rational person can consider. In considering this you have to consider how generally rational the person is, how honest and trustworthy, and how otherwise mentally stable the person is.

It becomes irrational when a person with such an experience expects another person who has not had that specific experience to accept and view it in the same way. That’s where many theists go wrong.

And if you are talking about for you to accept it as evidence that you should believe in God, I understand and agree. It is not sufficient.

However, if you mean for the belief to be considered rational for the person who believes and has had such spiritual experiences, I believe that is sufficient. You don’t have to believe, but I feel that the quality of evidence is enough for it to be rational for a person who has had such experiences to believe.

I submit that theism is rational for the believer who has had spiritual experiences, while theism is not rational for a person with no such experience and a lack of credible witnesses.

I think you are right. Most people are perfectly sane and live balanced happy lives in accordance with their deepest spiritual nature. There is no wholesale destruction of the planet going on as “wholesale destruction” is a subjective term and not subject to rational analysis. Our socities are not rife with violence, drug addiction and dysfunction. Everyone is happy. Hindus have a caste system that functions delightfully. Fred Smith is not pulling our legs. I am not here arguing this with you because I have a deep seated compulsion to confront insanity wherever I see it and this compulsion does not in any way reflect a disconnect from reality in terms of my percieved ability to influence anything anywhere. Gao Bo Han and I have not made a convincing argument that religious faith is a form of insanity. So far in this discussion we have all been using the term insane to mean “legally” insane. The first entry in Oxford under insane is not “mad.” Mad is not more or less synonymous with nuts, loony, bonkers, crazy etc. You are not here because Christianity bolsters your self esteem despite it’s logical inconsisitencies. The porno girls who are busy showing off their assholes and wiping the come off their faces knew perfectly well what they were doing when they entered the pornography business and none are concerned that their images are the object of masturbatory fantasies the world over. Their parents are also proud. Billions of dollars a year are not wasted televised sports every year and there is nothing more productive people could be doing with their time. Taiwanese have not wasted hundreds of millions of dollars on ineffective language learning programs. War is logical, particularly the war in Iraq. There are not too many cars in the world, nor are there too many roads and mankind should, as it is doing, continue to increase the manufacture and construction of both. Life after death and reincarnation are observable realities and people are rational in their belief in both. Most people are sane and religious belief perfectly logical. Thank you for helping me see the light.

I would say it’s a safe wager that God is a theist.

And since he created humans, he might even be a Theistic Humanist.

Bob, pretty much nothing you just posted is what I said, implied, or could possibly be inferred from what I wrote.

Insane doesn’t mean what you think it does.

:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:

Whew, we knew that believing in life after death and a future with god was not reality.

thanks for confirming it.

I believe in a new series coming out called gods bloopers.

Whew, we knew that believing in life after death and a future with god was not reality.

thanks for confirming it.

I believe in a new series coming out called gods bloopers.[/quote]
:unamused: