Do all people who acquire citizenship though naturalization have to give up citizenship of their own country or is this a whitey thing?
My children are dual citizens, my wife can be also (in America’s eyes). Why, a few years ago, when we were winning all these victories in human rights did we stop our fight. Bam! We got workers rights. Then we got long term visas, Then we won rights for our children to be Taiwanese and then finally we won the permanent residency.
Don’t we have enough of a base to push for open naturalization with out giving up your home citizenship. It’s simple… you have decent character and from a free country. Why not? From a communist country or potential enemy… No!
I just sent in my renunciation paperwork to give up UK nationality. If you are a citizen of a country that does not allow renunciation then you are excused. To me that’s probably the most unfair thing about the whole deal.
My personal opinion is that acquiring another country’s nationality is a Big Deal and I’m not sure that it’s necessarily right that you can just pick up passports from some countries like a stamp collection. If you are not willing to give up your current nationality then perhaps you could stick with an APRC instead.
so if you somehow get killed after they renounce your British nationality and before you pick up your Taiwanese one, does your soul still go to Heaven or do you end up in limbo?
Note to the gallery: that is NOT an announcement of an open season on Ilary, OK?
(Is that EYE-lary, as in 'ilary with an H, or is it just llary with two Lls instead of two arse?)
I just copy the text and paste and convert into another font or two… or even just into the reply box, which seems to use a different font to the posted page in my settings.
[quote=“Big Fluffy Matthew”]I dug up the spreadsheet: sowf.moi.gov.tw/stat/year/y02-06.xls
The “other” column might be what interests you.[/quote]
Thanks for the figures, BFM.
So, according to the chart, in the 28 years from 1982 through 2009 a grand total of 11 U.S. citizens (all male), 3 German citizens (all male), 0 Italians, and 0 Austrians acquired ROC nationality. If “others” and “unspecified” are included (though they could include plenty of non-Westerners, in addition to possible extra former U.S., German, Italian, and Austrian citizens) that’s another 1036 people. Thus, the total is no more than 1050 – and is almost certainly much less.
Compare that with the more than 50,000 Vietnamese brides Taiwan naturalized during the same period.
[quote=“cranky laowai”][quote=“Big Fluffy Matthew”]I dug up the spreadsheet: sowf.moi.gov.tw/stat/year/y02-06.xls
The “other” column might be what interests you.[/quote]
Thanks for the figures, BFM.
So, according to the chart, in the 28 years from 1982 through 2009 a grand total of 11 U.S. citizens (all male), 3 German citizens (all male), 0 Italians, and 0 Austrians acquired ROC nationality. If “others” and “unspecified” are included (though they could include plenty of non-Westerners, in addition to possible extra former U.S., German, Italian, and Austrian citizens) that’s another 1036 people. Thus, the total is no more than 1050 – and is almost certainly much less.
Compare that with the more than 50,000 Vietnamese brides Taiwan naturalized during the same period.[/quote]
But no statistics specifically from many other Western nations such as Australia and the UK. I knew an older fellow from the UK who got his citizenship around the same time I did, in '93 or so, but that country’s not listed. Granted, you might extrapolate, but not all the data is there.
It is indeed odd that the MOI included columns for Austria and Italy when there were no naturalizations of former citizens of those countries but did not include other countries that contributed citizens to the ROC. Perhaps it has to do a bit with the tendency to think of the world as two countries: woguo and waiguo.
Regardless, “no more than 1050” should include all possible Westerners. And since that almost certainly includes lots of non-Westerners as well, the total number of non-Asian naturalized Taiwanese citizens is likely in the hundreds (if that), certainly not the thousands.
I think he did it around 2003, so no. As to who was the first, I have no idea. Could have been 50 years ago for all I know.[/quote]
One of the few Chinese language books I read for fun was written by a former US dude, who obtained Taiwan citizenship, and who promptly got enrolled into the ROC army for 2 years. I think he got his citizenship in 1995, surely he must be among the first?
Would anyone know hoe well the book did? I lent my copy out, and have yet to get it back.
I think he did it around 2003, so no. As to who was the first, I have no idea. Could have been 50 years ago for all I know.[/quote]
One of the few Chinese language books I read for fun was written by a former US dude, who obtained Taiwan citizenship, and who promptly got enrolled into the ROC army for 2 years. I think he got his citizenship in 1995, surely he must be among the first?
Would anyone know hoe well the book did? I lent my copy out, and have yet to get it back.[/quote]
It wasn’t exactly prompt; I got my draft notice in 1995, well over a year after I obtained citizenship. As for the book, the publisher tells me there are almost 400 copies left from the second printing, so I guess about 6,600 copies have been sold so far.
But according to the link above, people were doing it as far back as 1982, and, I imagine, for many years before that.
It is indeed odd that the MOI included columns for Austria and Italy when there were no naturalizations of former citizens of those countries but did not include other countries that contributed citizens to the ROC. Perhaps it has to do a bit with the tendency to think of the world as two countries: woguo and waiguo.
Regardless, “no more than 1050” should include all possible Westerners. And since that almost certainly includes lots of non-Westerners as well, the total number of non-Asian naturalized Taiwanese citizens is likely in the hundreds (if that), certainly not the thousands.[/quote]
Ehe, we had agreed we Latinos were also considered westeners, right? Then I report 4 Latinas in my vicinity becoming Taiwanese in the time I’ve been here, ID’s seen with my own ojitos tapatios.
I think he did it around 2003, so no. As to who was the first, I have no idea. Could have been 50 years ago for all I know.[/quote]
One of the few Chinese language books I read for fun was written by a former US dude, who obtained Taiwan citizenship, and who promptly got enrolled into the ROC army for 2 years. I think he got his citizenship in 1995, surely he must be among the first?
Would anyone know hoe well the book did? I lent my copy out, and have yet to get it back.[/quote]
It wasn’t exactly prompt; I got my draft notice in 1995, well over a year after I obtained citizenship. As for the book, the publisher tells me there are almost 400 copies left from the second printing, so I guess about 6,600 copies have been sold so far.
But according to the link above, people were doing it as far back as 1982, and, I imagine, for many years before that.[/quote]
I could see you in the stats, but not sat tv?!?!?
interesting when you know a stat, IE US citizens naturalized in 1995-1996, a grand total of… one.
Thanks for the link to that thread. It does my heart good that this issue is still alive. After getting taken for a ride by my boss, the bad treatment at the foreign service police and etc, I retreated to my little cocoon once I got my workers rights, citizenship for children and my business license.
Those people who made the decision not to change are elected officials aren’t they? Can’t we get our wives, family and friends living in those districts to target their reelection campaigns?
I disagree with one poster that says you should be willing to give up your citizenship or make due with Permanent Residency Visa. That’s not a fair comparison. If I want to do anything from getting a credit card or mobile phone, you still have to shmooze, beg or fight for it. You probably will get it in the end but it’s always like you are accepting a favor or charity.
I’ve invested my time, built a family sacrificed some for local family sake. But I have no equity.
I’m entitled to use my aprc to get anything but when I wanted to open a post office account they told me I must use my passport. I was about to fight but my wife said “Give it up” 5 years from now when my Chinese is enough to argue… I will go back… fight with them win, close the passport account and make them doing again just because it’s my right to.
In states that all offers and opportunities in the United States is open to ALL LEGAL Residents. They US doesn’t even care about citizenships. Your a legal resident, we can sell to you. You’re a citizen but not a legal resident, forget about it. Call us when you’re back in America.
Those new citizens, please don’t forget us timid people. Lobby. If they want to compare themselves to Saudi Arabia, write Chinese letters calling them out on it.
If the government had a clearly stated policy of denying rights and benefits to non-citizens because it wanted to encourage suitable resident foreigners to become citizens, while at the same time setting out a clear and reasonable path so non-citizens could attain citizenship, I wouldn’t complain. If that were the case, denying certain things (such as economic stimulus vouchers and proper pensions for university professors) to people simply because they don’t have an ROC passport would make some sense.
However, the government hasn’t (as far as I can tell) done any clear thinking on the issue. They are aware of foreigners coming to Taiwan and settling down, but they haven’t decided if they think it’s best these people become citizens, or remain eternal non-citizens. The naturalization rules are designed, it seems, to filter out folk from rich, stable democracies. Then the authorities express surprise that only Vietnamese and Indonesians who want to exchange their original nationality for ROC citizenship!
The problem is the government, not the public. As Hartzell observed long long ago, the average Taiwanese in the street seems quite comfortable with the idea of non-Asians becoming citizens. They know non-Westerners can become citizens of the US, Canada etc; when elections are coming up, I’ve been asked by neighbors etc about my voting intentions.
I’m curious if you have ever tried living in the US as a foreign resident. I have and it sucks much worse than Taiwan. Sure everyone has the front about equal opportunities and anti-racism but cellphone companies still want a US$1,000 deposit to give you service. Credit cards, mortgages etc. are way easier to obtain in Taiwan as a new resident, it only gets easier in the US after many years of building up history.
Just giving my 2c as someone who has been through immigration on both sides of the world.
