Only 8000? I suppose that in Taipei, the incidence of using one’s home as a base is lower butt there are more ‘love hotels’ than in London to carry out one’s business. I think that the number overall is way higher in Taipei.
BroonApartment
South Africa too has its fair share of part-timers:
I wouldn’t use the qualifier. You’re either a prostitute or you’re not.
[quote]Only 8000? I suppose that in Taipei, the incidence of using one’s home as a base is lower butt there are more ‘love hotels’ than in London to carry out one’s business. I think that the number overall is way higher in Taipei.
[/quote]
Taipei has a pop of around 1.5 million. So let’s say there are 800,000 women. 8,000 prostitutes would comprise 1% of the female pop. Assuming that most prostitutes are between 18-35 the percentage of pros in this age group rises to maybe 5-10% of the total. And taking into account that you think there are more than 8,000 prostitutes in Taipei the percentage must go even higher. Do you really think that every 5th to 10th young women in Taipei is a prostitute?
It’s not surprising, given the nature of this thread, to discover that Broon is thinking with his nether regions.
BroonOutBrained by MeritoriousMuchaMan
[quote=“Mucha (Muzha) Man”][quote]Only 8000? I suppose that in Taipei, the incidence of using one’s home as a base is lower butt there are more ‘love hotels’ than in London to carry out one’s business. I think that the number overall is way higher in Taipei.
[/quote]
Taipei has a pop of around 1.5 million
. So let’s say there are 800,000 women. 8,000 prostitutes would comprise 1% of the female pop. Assuming that most prostitutes are between 18-35 the percentage of pros in this age group rises to maybe 5-10% of the total. And taking into account that you think there are more than 8,000 prostitutes in Taipei the percentage must go even higher. Do you really think that every 5th to 10th young women in Taipei is a prostitute?
It’s not surprising, given the nature of this thread, to discover that Broon is thinking with his nether regions.
BroonOutBrained by MeritoriousMuchaMan[/quote]
Which census do you have to hand oh MeritoriousMuchaMan, 1970?
The population of Taipei is around 3 million. 
not including Taipei County.
At least I am not thinking with neither region… :raspberry: 
I do believe that the number of women willing to occasionally have sex for money is quite high here in Taiwan; many of these women have respectable jobs and ordinarily you’d never guess but it is faaaaaar more prevalent than you think.
BroonAppendage
[quote]I do believe that the number of women willing to occasionally have sex for money is quite high here in Taiwan; many of these women have respectable jobs and ordinarily you’d never guess but it is faaaaaar more prevalent than you think.
[/quote]
Hmm. Saw the 1.5 million figure just the other day. Of course it’s wrong.
Anyway, even with the figure of 3 million that still means you think that 1 in every 10 or 20 women (say between 18-35) is a prostitute in Taipei. Ridiculous.
You believe that the number of women who will engage in part-time sex is high. Extraordinarily high let’s add. Where is your proof? You are just pulling hyperboles out of your head and getting Isieh to buy them. 
I think it can be agree upon that since approximately half the population in Taipei are women. And a majority of them participate in sexual activity past a certain age.
Just because they are not willing to have sex with us because of our charm, wit, and tendency for run on sentences; or the fact we are unable to sleep with them till after the dinner and a movie, doesn’t automatically make them all prostitutes.
More thoughts:
Broon, the only explanation you have offered for a high level of part-time prostitution is low wages. This doesn’t wash.
The average woman in Taipei makes $1000-1500 Canadian a month. Since most unmarried women live at home and pay no rent this is discretionary income. For someone to have this much to spend each month in Canada (assuming they are living on their own) they would have to make $40,000 a year. This is more than a decent salary for someone in their 20’s.
The average female worker in Taipei then is no harder up than her Canadian counterpart. Furthermore, given how cheap knockoffs of expensive clothing, bags, CD’s etc, are so prevalent here, the Taiwanese worker’s dollar actually goes a lot further. Why then the need for extra income brought in by prostitution?
If it’s simply economics that drives part-time prostitution then I expect to hear a report any day now on the huge percentage (faarrrrrr greater than you imagine) of WalMart employees engaged in part-time prostitution in the US.
Which leaves us then that the only explanation or Broon’s theory would be the very racist assumption that eastern people are just more greedy than westerners and have fewer scruples to boot.
[quote=“Mucha (Muzha) Man”]More thoughts:
Broon, the only explanation you have offered for a high level of part-time prostitution is low wages. This doesn’t wash.
The average woman in Taipei makes $1000-1500 Canadian a month. Since most unmarried women live at home and pay no rent this is discretionary income. For someone to have this much to spend each month in Canada (assuming they are living on their own) they would have to make $40,000 a year. This is more than a decent salary for someone in their 20’s.
The average female worker in Taipei then is no harder up than her Canadian counterpart. Furthermore, given how cheap knockoffs of expensive clothing, bags, CD’s etc, are so prevalent here, the Taiwanese worker’s dollar actually goes a lot further. Why then the need for extra income brought in by prostitution?
If it’s simply economics that drives part-time prostitution then I expect to hear a report any day now on the huge percentage (faarrrrrr greater than you imagine) of WalMart employees engaged in part-time prostitution in the US.
Which leaves us then that the only explanation or Broon’s theory would be the very racist assumption that eastern people are just more greedy than westerners and have fewer scrupples to boot.[/quote]
Mucha Man: Please refrain from insinuating that I am racist; having lived and worked in a number of Asian countries for the last 15+ years and having been married to a woman of Asian extraction, I am far from ‘racist’. Please don’t go there.
The reasons for my assertion that PT prostitution is more prevalent here are more complex than economic factors only. Taiwan society is rapidly evolving and I believe that the desire for greater economic independence on the part of many women has led to a substantial number of women to ignore the moral question of right or wrong in the short term in favour of asserting that independence through economic empowerment and one relatively easy way to break away from the constraints of the family environment is lowering the unacceptability threshold vis a vis prostitution. It has long been recognised that Taiwanese men have had a casual attitude towards prostitution to the detriment of the women.
The prevalence I refer to is based on a desire for greater freedoms for women, to break away from the traditional role of the woman in society; perhaps to be able to live in their own apartment, to make their own choices, to not have to be married, or be pressured into marriage by the age of 30. It’s not just about designer goods.
As I said, one of the easy ways to achieve this economic independence leading to greater freedom of choice is through part-time prostitution. Once they have achieved their goals, they often stop. If the Taiwanese family applied less pressure on women to conform to the standards dictated by men, prevalence levels would be lower. I believe that it is also a form of protest, it is also about power. It is about exacting a form of revenge for what women increasingly perceive as domestic enslavement. They watch TV and imported soaps etc. and say to themselves ‘I want to be like her, strong, independent, career-oriented and (moderately) wealthy’ not tied down to demands of the traditional rstrictive family structure. Sacrificing moral qualms about engaging in sex for money occasionally in the short term helps them kick start them on the road to economic freedom. Such freedoms are widely taken for granted in the west and that is why some here regard this topic as racist. Not true. Part time prostitution is just one manifestation of a sea change in Taiwanese society; it is not about women being oppressed through prostitution, it is about women choosing to do this on an ad hoc basis, occasionally to break away from oppression that they experience within the family structure as second-class members. It is about empowerment. They wish to achieve the same level of emancipation as women in the West which women in the West already experience and benefit from hence the politically correct (from an occidental perspective) dismissal of this entire notion.
This, from the US Department of State:
“The authorities are phasing out legalized prostitution; in 1999 the LY banned prostitution, but exempted 23 brothels and 119 prostitutes already registered with the authorities. Under the law, no new houses of prostitution may be registered. There have been reports of a growing trend of young women, often well educated, entering into part-time prostitution to earn additional spending money.”
state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2001/eap/8294.htm
[my highlight]
Taiwan has also reported the highest number of teenage pregnancies in Asia, indicating that this desire for independence begins at an earlier age and that coupled with naiivete (sp.) shows a society in a state of flux as it changes from a conservative, family oriented one to one that more closely resembles one in the West.
Before dismissing this as frivolous, ask yourself why “Sex & the City” is so mindbogglingly popular amongst women here? It portrays a level of independence many women desire and occasionally engaging in sex for cash helps bring that goal closer for some.
lsieh isn’t ‘buying’ this because of your assumption that it is a load of racist, stereotypical, expat prejudicial nonsense; quite the contrary. lsieh is able to see beyond the politically correct misplaced defence of Eastern dignity (which is in itself condescending and patronising) but is addressing a real issue, realistically. It may on the surface be unpalatable to some but but there is no point denying it. If the US State Department finds it worthy of mention, then it is worthy of mention. This thread is not intended to demean women in Taiwan at all.
Mucha Man: Have you ever discussed this with a Taiwanese woman to ascertain their attitude to it? Even if that woman is herself not engaged in part-time prostitution (and the vast majority are not), there is a big difference in attitude to it than in the West. From my discussions with women here about their relationships, many are resigned to the dalliances of their menfolk while not liking it very much, or at all. This is a different attitude from a Western woman who would find it intolerable and just leave their partner because they can. By extension, attitudes towards PT prostitution here are more relaxed. Taiwanese women may not approve of it particularly but they are pragmatic as to why some engage in it and are often sympathetic rather than condemning. This issue has to be addressed not from the standpoint of the all-judging prevailing standards of modern-day Western mores but rather with the current realities of an evolving Taiwan and the role of women in this society. When the balance is tipped in favour of women, and it is accepted that they have a right to be free of the shackles of family tradition and obligation, like handing over sizeable portions of their income (many Taiwanese women are coming to increasingly resent this as it inhibits their desire for economic independence and some make up for the shortfall by being more receptive to the notion of occasionally taking cash for sex) the prevailing attitudes will merge and many women here will no longer be as receptive to the empathetic notion of the necessity felt by some to engage in this activity as a form of seeking emancipation/economic independence/revenge on their philandering menfolk.
Think about it.
BroonAssertion
And shagging around is one way in which girls have been known to rebel against a conservative upbringing. If you’re not really doing it for love, you’re doing it to assert your freedom, then why not get paid for it too?
Personally I find the whole idea rather depressing, but I don’t think BA is being racist in this.
Well, guys, there are most certainly a few Taiwanese girls sleeping around for money once in awhile, but the calculation showing that 5% of Taipei girls are prostitutes is plain wrong.
First of all, you forget the full timers, who are likely to make up a not neglible proportion of the paid action here.
Secondly you forget the mainland girls, which must be at a rather respectable number, along with the vitnamese, the Thais, the fillipinas and the other women working in the entertainment industry here.
That should bring you down to 1000~2000 Taiwanese part timers.
[quote=“stragbasher”]And shagging around is one way in which girls have been known to rebel against a conservative upbringing. If you’re not really doing it for love, you’re doing it to assert your freedom, then why not get paid for it too?
Personally I find the whole idea rather depressing, but I don’t think BA is being racist in this.[/quote]
Exactly. I find it rather depressing too. If some respondees could just step back from being judgemental from a Western standpoint and be more circumpect in considering the issue, they might find my lengthy post closer to the truth than they wish to think.
Again, I am not being racist at all; I have no reason, desire nor inclination to be. I am tackling a grim reality of life here in Taiwan; not denying its existence and I suggest that some similarly face up to the fact that all may not be what it seems to be.
BroonAssertion
Prostitution has always been common here. Just look at all the barbershops around. Are lots of women here willing to engage in it part time while maintaining their otherwise conservative identities? My guess is that it depends somewhat on who is offering. It may not be all that depressing. It depends on how they treat each other. For men I think part of the thrill of seeing a prostitute is that it is totally free of all the emotional entanglements. Maybe some women feel the same way only they also get paid for it. Perhaps prsostitutes who can choose their customers are the freest people in the world. I have known women who thought that way.
[quote=“Mr He”]Well, guys, there are most certainly a few Taiwanese girls sleeping around for money once in awhile, but the calculation showing that 5% of Taipei girls are prostitutes is plain wrong.
First of all, you forget the full timers, who are likely to make up a not neglible proportion of the paid action here.
Secondly you forget the mainland girls, which must be at a rather respectable number, along with the vitnamese, the Thais, the fillipinas and the other women working in the entertainment industry here.
That should bring you down to 1000~2000 Taiwanese part timers.[/quote]
I don’t know why some are fixated on actual numbers. Without a comprehensive survey, we simply do not know. I am merely saying that I believe the number of women who occasionally engage in part-time prostitution in exchange for money is a lot higher than many assume. given the relative social standing of women, the constrictions of family and an increasing desire for independence. I am not talking about full-time career prostitution here in Taiwan at all. The actual number is irrelevent. This is not a statistical quibbling exercise but a broader discussion on attitude and prevalence of part-time prostitution amongst women in Taiwan outside the full-time sex industry.
BroonArgument
Indeed. My discussions with women here also confirm this. There is a relationship between this attitude and ‘the family’ and given the evolving nature of society here, the prevalence and looser attitude towards this activity is greater here. Therefore I assert that there is more of it going on than we think because we judge it by our standards which do not yet apply in real terms to the realities of this society now. That is not to say it won’t change in the future. I believe as women assume a greater recognition and are able to compete and stand up to men more assertively, this will change and engagement in part-time prostitution will decrease over time.
BroonArgument
Some prostitution statistics:
That London figure in the paper today:
- What’s the populatyion of London 12Million (guess). 6000000 women. Must be nearly 2% of women between the ages of 15-45. That’s high.
Research I did for an essay 8 years ago got figures of 1% for Sydney, 0.5% for Paris, 0.47% for Birmingham, 0.5% ofr the US, and about 0.5% ofr Wellington.
I expect that Taiwan is also in the 0.5%-1.5% range which is normal. It’s just more visible here.
As for population of Taipei City. 2 624 858 according to this:
dbas.taipei.gov.tw/News_week … indexe.htm
Brian
If somebody did a poll and asked a broad sample of women in Taipei if they were willing to have sex for money occassionaly I’d be interested. Otherwise almost nobody knows for sure what is really going on and the only way to get a better idea is to keep your eyes open and get a feel for what is happening yourself. It’s also useful to ask Taiwanese what they think of course. Money is a crucial element of every relationship between people here. I bet if you asked a bunch of women whether or not they would have sex for money they would say “It depends who is offering and how much they were offering. Tom Cruise might get a discount.” Broons enquiry is into the question of how many actually do it. I don’t think we have seen a more satisfactory answer than his. Namely “More than you think.”
The results fo such a poll would be very different from the actual incidence of prostitution.
The number of people asked the ‘Indecent Proposal’ question - would you give someone a night of sex for $1 Million - would be really high, but how many people have actually done it?
Brian
The results fo such a poll would be very different from the actual incidence of prostitution.
The number of people asked the ‘Indecent Proposal’ question - would you give someone a night of sex for $1 Million - would be really high, but how many people have actually done it?
Brian[/quote]
I concur that the results would be different from actual instances BUT, if a poll could be conducted completely anonymously and guaranteed to remain so it could be quite enlightening. For example, if an identical poll were conducted in say, London and Taipei and women asked at what level of financial inducement would they be prepared to have sex , the results could be very interesting. Offer different amounts in the answer choices and I am fairly convinced that by a large amount the acceptance level (i.e. the dollar amount) would be much lower in Taipei for all the reasons, not just economic, I have previously stated. This would indicate a greater acceptance of the practice as I have asserted and by extension the probability of a greater prevalence of the activity than many think, as I have also asserted.
Not really that daft, IMO.
BroonAmountOfCash
Broon your posts on this topic are (finally) interestign and intelligent. That they were not so at the beginning of this thread lead my criticisms. So please don’t lecture me nor pretend offense. The man who starts two threads in one day on Asian women (one regarding the best lays in Asia) should not wonder why others regard his motivation with suspicion.
Please remember, I never said part-time prostitution wasn’t happening here. I just argued that your numbers were ludicrously high and, again, given your other thread on Asian women, there was no reason to believe you wanted to discuss this issue intelligently. Nor that you actually had (as it seems you do) anything original and persuasuve to articulate.
As for the notion of my defending Asian dignity that’s an assinine critique of what I am doing. I am suggesting that we don’t malign one group for activities that are perfectly common in our own society (as you also pointed out with your link to part-time prostitution in the west). Isieh’s post was nothing more than what I have already suggested it is: biased, ignorant and smug.
I have no problem with your thesis that Taiwanese women are engagign in part-time prostitution both to make money and assert their freedom. However, in any society the number of people who would be motivated by the second factor must be small.
It makes no sense that intelligent, bold, independent, iconoclastic young women would in large numbers engage in an activity that is inherently unpleasant to contemplate and perform. That some would take this route I think makes perfect sense in the uncertain moral atmosphere that most kids are raised in now.
By the way, any statistics on how watched is “Sex and the City?” I had always read that it was popular mostly among single, educated women in their late 20’s and early 30’s with liberal pretensions. Hardly a large demographic I would think.