How to argue with a global warming "skeptic"

Again, Aug 25

And this is why there is zero point in trying to have a “discussion” with Fred Smith. You claim you hadn’t made posts about his family in more than a month. I showed where you did. You have zero ability to admit when you are wrong and move to some version of he started it (but he didn’t). This is the perfect micro-representation of how Fred Smith “discusses.” But to anyone who can read, Fred is obviously just wrong and since then has used denial strategy even about what he has posted!

Mick, if you want to be “scientific” about this, you’ve got it exactly backwards.

The climate-change brigade accumulated evidence that CC is due to human CO2 emissions. They then set up a whole load of experiments, simulations and suchlike to determine (a) if this hypothesis was a useful predictor for future observations and (b) if it could be disproved - that is, whether an alternative hypothesis fits the observations better. The answer to (a) was yes, and the answer to (b) was no. We therefore take the AGW hypothesis as a useful theory … until it is disproved. The initial evidence proves nothing: it’s just the basis for a working hypothesis.

Therefore, it is indeed up to the deniers to deliver evidence that the current theory is incorrect; to clinch it, they need to provide an alternative hypothesis that fits the observations more accurately than the AGW theory. So far they haven’t even bothered trying.

The funny part is that fred knows how this works, probably better than most. He inadvertently tipped his hand elsewhere. His explanation is that all the scientists (yup, all of them) are in a vast conspiracy to fix their results (a) and (b) so that they can make money out of global warming - SORRY! CLIMATE CHANGE! :bouncy:

As for carbon tax: you could prove that it’s unlikely to cause a massive paradigm shift simply by referring to historical prices and consumer behaviour. And as I said earlier, people can’t just dump their cars unless governments provide an alternative solution: if you want to change people’s behaviour with tax (which is undoubtedly possible) you need to make it easy to do B instead of A, otherwise they’ll just pay the tax … until they can vote for a different government.

I know this wasn’t directed at me, but I’d start like this:

  • Build some highly-visible public infrastructure projects, such as light rail or PRT, that are designed right off the bat to be “dual fuel”: that is, it’ll run off the grid, as it stands now, or it’ll run just as well (or better) from renewables. This could be done with any number of financing models: BOT seems to be fashionable at the moment.

  • Do it in provincial towns, not in major cities. Three reasons: 1) massive economic stimulus in areas that badly need it, ie., rapid payback on investment, 2) much easier planning and land acquisition, 3) an expanded base of happy voters.

  • Roll out big PV farms along the length of the new transport infrastructure with spare capacity, and encourage building companies to put up industrial estates (or residences) nearby. Offer nice power tariffs to tenants that will ensure load balancing (ie., high prices at transport rush hour and low prices at off-peak times).

This would have a snowball effect. All economies - from the most advanced to the most primitive - rely on cheap, efficient transport. Once that’s in place, all kinds of economic changes will occur around it. Businesses that weren’t profitable with fossil-fuelled transport will suddenly become viable. The new industrial locations will have (a) cheap power and (b) convenient access, making them highly desirable locations. Companies will start to develop products targeted specifically at renewable power sources, once governments have given it their blessing. As those products become more popular, people will start to demand renewable sources, instead of being forced into it.

However, governments do not want to bring down overall emissions of CO2. If they did they would have done it by now. I would say a majority of politicians don’t understand either the problem or the potential solutions, so nothing is likely to happen.

Great. You are right. You are right about everything. The earth is facing the penultimate disaster and you and your little band of earnest, do-gooders are ultimately going to win the day. Hurray! Cue: soaring trumpets of victory. In the meantime, I will continue to watch with dismay as you and your clever gang run circles around me and my nefarious efforts to derail the happy-ever-after ending. If only I could feel in my heart the joys of doing the right thing. How is it that I cannot see that small children will smile and laugh (gurgle gurgle hee hee haw haw), flowers will blossom, birds will sing (tra la la) and there will be peace on earth… why do I have to be so mean and make children cry (read: cooperative, BrentGolf). Oh dear… there I go again… wah! wah! wah! But, as of today, I intend to join this brigade. I have seen the light (and the heat). We must ACT URGENTLY NOW!!! and no price is too high to stave off this URGENT challenge. We MUST save the polar bears NOW! I AGREE! I SEE THE LIGHT!!! PRAISE THE LORD!!!

P.S. The real reason I am conceding is because of your skills at debate. You really showed me. I am cowed, defeated, despondent… Alas, but I must admit: Cooperative’s argument has totally destroyed me and I must wimper off with my tail between my legs… sniff sniff (sorry, wimper wimper)… Ah… farewell… cruel world… (cue: menacing music)… Sorry, just had to borrow that last one and now I am going to practice my despondent head between my hands, er, despondency in front of the mirror. I must achieve just the right effect for there to be DRAMA!!! DRAMA!!! At last, DRAMA!!!

Great. You are right. [/quote] Yes, like I said, that was extremely obvious and not really debatable. You said something, denied it and demanded proof, and I provided the proof. The rest of what you wrote is exactly what I would expect because it’s what you do every time you are proven wrong. What a bigger man might have done is say, “oops, I was wrong.”

So back to the topic from page one, this is a prime example of why I think engaging such people is a waste of time. While I appreciate the ideas of engaging a denialist, I think this thread has demonstrated it’s a complete waste of time. I pushed the very small side issue to demonstrate even with something so simple that has concrete proof, the same denial strategy is used. Whats the point, then, of engaging such a person on something as complicated as global warming?

Whenever confronted with evidence, our resident denialist turns into a petulant child, just as above. I don’t think this thread clarifies much of anything because there’s someone who wants to constantly muddle it. The same pattern appears, over and over. I think the arguments in favor of engaging the denialist are not as good as the new adage: don’t feed the troll.

Aaaaaaanyway…

My brilliant plan:

Energy: all nuclear all the way
Industry: continue transition to variable speed drive technology with efficiency now at 50% already
Farming: no idea, eat more salad?
Consumer: Worship the ground that Elon Musk walks on and go full electric

While ignoring the fact that my comments were a direct response to Vay and his comments about his family. I didn’t initiate them. :loco: :loco: :loco: My comments about your being “right” were a joke. I was laughing AT you. Got it? :unamused:

Vay, the problem with pushing people towards alternative choices is that there are none. The financial incentive to use fossil fuels has essentially disappeared. If you recall (from about 10 years ago) the economic experts postulated a $1/W (installed capacity) goal for solar PV to achieve cost parity with fossil fuels. The current price is well under $1 - it’s approaching $0.60 in high volume. Cost is not the hurdle.

You know as well as I do that any cash from carbon tax will disappear into the bottomless pit of government inefficiency. Consider the UK experience with fuel tax, which now stands at around 80%. Theoretically, this is a payment for externalities and for road maintenance. The UK gov’t won’t invest in transport infrastructure like light rail, tramways, or PRT because they have a visceral aversion to [strike]doing anything sensible[/strike] state-owned utilities. So in practice, all that money goes into the general pot and then vaporizes. People just grumble and whinge and pay up, because the alternative to owning a car is walking, and they know that won’t change anytime soon.

If fuel/carbon tax were earmarked for genuine development projects - that paradigm shift that CFImages mentioned - I think people would be a lot less unhappy about it. I just don’t see it happening.[/quote]

Totally agree. I’m seriously wondering WHAT THE F… HELL when it comes to the question of solar in Taiwan. It seems you have to know a guy who knows a guy to even inquire about getting solar on your building, and then when you finally get ahold of that guy, he practically encourages you not to do it. Let alone the non-existent availability of or even interest in electric vehicles.

Regarding the last point, I again totally agree. Nader said revenue from carbon taxes could be used to “balance the budget or something”, but I think either it should be revenue neutral, or else all revenues should be directed specifically at refitting infrastructure or other energy/climate-related projects.

Yup, sad, innit? Taiwan is probably one of a handful of countries where electric vehicles would work amazingly well (unlike, say, Australia).

Part of the problem there, I think, is that the fred smiths would be instantly crawling out of the woodwork crying foul. Nevermind that infrastructure investment is usually profitable for government and society at large. The luddites disapprove of anything that doesn’t spew smoke, just on general principle. And governments spending money on stuff that benefits the people? How dare they! Damn filthy socialists, creating public wealth and enabling a healthy business climate!

I think that it is incumbent on you to show how these investments have delivered. Surely, in the 35 plus years of global warming (SORRY!!! CLIMATE CHANGE!!!) hysteria, you can point to a project where things worked as suggested? then you can link that to overall spending (hundreds of billions? trillions?) on this effort and determine whether it was money well spent? Let’s see what you’ve got… just for the record, you may not wish to bring up Solyndra… just a thought…

And to spark that conversation, here is an assessment on some of the loans and subsidies to “green” energy. Worthy effort that has not had sufficient time to “flower,” (the article cites greater success with green energy sorta kinda in that it is not defaulting but…) or corporate cashing in on another poorly planned government slop trough?

[quote]By Stephen Dinan - The Washington Times - Monday, April 27, 2015
Taxpayers are on the hook for more than $2.2 billion in expected costs from the federal government’s energy loan guarantee programs, according to a new audit Monday that suggests the controversial projects may not pay for themselves, as officials had promised. Nearly $1 billion in loans have already defaulted under the Energy Department program, which included the infamous Solyndra stimulus project and dozens of other green technology programs the Obama administration has approved, totaling nearly about
$30 billion in taxpayer backing
, the Government Accountability Office reported in its audit.

The hefty $2.2 billion price tag is actually an improvement over initial estimates, which found the government was poised to face $4 billion in losses from the loan guarantees. But as the projects have come to fruition, they’ve performed better, leaving taxpayers with a shrinking — though still sizable — liability. “As of November 2014, DOE estimates the credit subsidy cost of the loans and loan guarantees in its portfolio — that is, the total expected net cost over the life of the loans — to be $2.21 billion, including $807 million for loans that have defaulted,” the GAO said in its report to Congress.

The green program loan guarantees were created in a 2005 law and boosted by the 2009 stimulus. The first applications were approved in 2009, and through 2014 the Obama administration had issued some 38 loans and guarantees, covering 34 projects ranging from nuclear power plants to fuel-efficient vehicles to solar panels and wind-generation technology. The Energy Department said it considers the loan program a success. “We believe that the data presented demonstrates that the department’s Loan Programs Office is achieving its statutory mission to accelerate the deployment of innovative clean energy projects and advanced vehicle manufacturing facilities in the U.S., while being a responsible steward of taxpayer dollars,” Peter W. Davidson, executive director of the loan programs, said in an official reply to the GAO.

Mr. Davidson said the expected loss to taxpayers has dropped some $2.28 billion since the initial estimates, and he predicted that the cost will continue to drop as projects mature and repay their loans. But most of that improvement came from one green vehicle loan where the project’s credit rating improved dramatically, making it far less likely the project would default. Another green vehicle program, Tesla Motors Inc., has already repaid its loan in full, helping the government’s balance sheet. Indeed, leaving the vehicle loan program aside, the loan guarantees office is deeper in the red than it was initially, by nearly $500 million, chiefly due to defaulted loans. Across the entire loan program there have been five defaulted loans: two solar panel manufacturers, Solyndra Inc. and Abound Manufacturing Solar LLC; two green vehicle programs, Fisker Automotive Inc. and the Vehicle Production Group LLC; and one energy storage project, Beacon Power.

GAO investigators said those technology projects were risky from the start, and each had a shaky credit rating.
By contrast, the more than 20 projects up and running that focused on energy generation or transmission have done well, with not a single default,
the investigators said. GAO investigators have been warning for nearly a decade that the loan programs are unlikely to pay for themselves overall. From the beginning, the investigators said because companies knew more about their projects and their own creditworthiness, they had an advantage over the Energy Department. The GAO said the companies were more likely to accept a federal loan guarantee if the Obama administration underestimated the actual risk of a project, leaving taxpayers on the hook.

Most of the loans are still in their infancy, but some are paying off. As of the end of 2014, the projects in the program have repaid $3.6 billion in principal and another $810 million in interest. The Energy Department says it expects, over the life of the loans, to earn $5 billion in total interest — though that has to be offset against the costs the federal government incurs for borrowing to finance its spending, so that’s not pure profit. In addition to the risky loans, the program isn’t collecting enough money in fees to cover the costs of administering itself, GAO investigators said, calculating that less than half of the $312 million in administrative costs has been offset by fees. Part of the problem is that the loan office didn’t even have sufficient staffing until 2011, which meant it wasn’t able to properly assess administrative fees. That problem has been fixed, and the program is getting better at matching fees with costs, the GAO said.

“At this time, it is too early to tell whether [the Energy Department‘s] actions will result in sufficient funds to offset [the loan guarantee program’s] future administrative costs,” investigators said.[/quote]

And in Germany, a success or a costly exercise in feel-good energy/economics policy that has not contributed to a lasting solution. Apologies for the length but I really think that this article highlights many relevant concerns that are worth discussing in their entirety. A soundbite from this that or the other paragraph is hard to generate.

[quote]Through much of 2012, the Energiewende, Germany’s pioneering effort to construct an energy system around renewables while simultaneously phasing out nuclear power and cutting carbon emissions, was on a roll. Plunging prices and eye-popping production figures for wind and solar power seemed to fulfill all the visionary prognostications. Germany shrugged off the shuttering of nearly half its nuclear plants without a backward glance: not only did it not suffer the predicted power shortages, it boosted electricity exports. Renewable power pushed market prices down and threatened to drive gas- and coal-burning power plants into bankruptcy. The press and the green blogosphere celebrated passed benchmark after shattered milepost, including the day in May when, according to Treehugger.com’s headline, “Half of Germany Was Running on Solar Power.”

But statistics on Germany’s electricity sector for the whole of 2012 are now in, and when you look beyond the cherry-picked hype, the results are dismal and disquieting. Despite massive construction of new capacity, electricity output from renewables, especially from wind and solar, grew at a sluggish rate. Germany is indeed avoiding blackouts—by opening new coal- and gas-fired plants. Renewable electricity is proving so unreliable and chaotic that it is starting to undermine the stability of the European grid and provoke international incidents. The spiraling cost of the renewables surge has sparked a backlash, including government proposals to slash subsidies and deployment rates. Worst of all, the Energiewende made no progress at all in clearing the German grid of fossil fuels or abating greenhouse emissions—nor is it likely to for at least a decade longer.

Germany has become the great green hope, promising to dispel the aura of impractical utopianism surrounding the renewable energy project by implementing it with fabled Prussian efficiency. And the Energiewende is doing so while repudiating nuclear power, the low-carbon cure for global warming that most supporters of renewable energy consider even worse than the disease. That adds a seemingly unanswerable pragmatic argument to anti-nuclear power advocates’ usual claims of apocalyptic danger: no need to build risky, expensive nuclear power plants when Germany’s example shows that renewables can do the job better.

I will focus here on that pragmatic argument, but first let me note that this argument is crucial to the case for a non-nuclear approach to carbon abatement precisely because claims about the unusual dangers of nuclear power are so weak. Indeed, the Fukushima nuclear power plant accident of 2011 has shown those risks to be more mythical than real. Contrary to panicked forecasts, the emerging scientific consensus is that the health effects of the Fukushima meltdowns will be modest to nil. The World Health Organization’s recent report estimates that, among the most radiologically vulnerable of the few thousand people who received the highest doses, about 1.2 percent will develop cancer over a lifetime from Fukushima radiation. (Normally about 35 percent of Japanese will get cancer at some point in their lives.) Total casualties will therefore be few. At the high end, Princeton physicist Frank von Hippel, writing in the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists, reckons an eventual one thousand fatal cancers arising from the accident. A peer-reviewed study by Stanford’s Mark Z. Jacobson, a renewables advocate, and John Ten Hoeve calculates a likely toll of just 130 fatal cancers in the whole world, with a low estimate of 15 to a high of 1,100. (Remarkably, Jacobson and Ten Hoeve’s model assumes no evacuations from the plant’s surroundings; in fact, they estimate that the evacuations themselves killed more people than the radiation would have.) While sensationalist media accounts portrayed the emergency response at the plant as a suicide mission, risks for Fukushima Daiichi workers were also tiny: the WHO report estimates that, among the 23,000 workers assigned to the plant after the tsunami, 51 may get cancer at some point in their lives because of the radiation exposure. All these casualty figures are calculated using the linear no-threshold model—the “no safe dose” theory of radiation risk—but they are really conjectural: the numbers are so low that in epidemiological studies they will probably not be discernible against the normal background incidence of cancer. Empirically speaking, the health effects of the Fukushima radiation will be too small to measure.

Moreover, these minuscule effects are dwarfed by the health benefits of replacing coal- and gas-fired power plants with nuclear reactors. Air pollution from fossil-fueled plants kills hundreds of thousands of people every year, orders of magnitude more than the worst once-a-generation nuclear accidents. An excellent case can be made for building nuclear power plants solely on the grounds of improving air quality, quite apart from their usefulness in abating greenhouse gases. A new study in Environmental Science and Technology, co-authored by NASA climate scientist James Hansen, estimates that commercial nuclear power plants have saved a net total of 1.8 million lives over the last few decades by reducing pollution, and could save a further 420,000 to seven million lives by mid-century depending on the mix of coal- and gas-fired generation they displace. Alarm over the immeasurably small risks of nuclear accidents thus get the cost-benefit equation of nuclear power backward.

So the choice between nuclear power and renewables should hinge less on safety anxieties than on logistics, costs, and deployment rates. Many believe that the Energiewende shows that the economics and the practicalities of renewables are self-evidently superior. Yet instead of vindicating renewable energy, the mounting evidence from the German experiment spotlights its limitations: high costs, low and unreliable productivity, intractable problems with grid integration, a reliance on subsidies that impose bizarre and counterproductive distortions on energy markets, and an unbreakable dependency on the fossil fuels it is supposed to displace. Most of all, the Energiewende raises grave doubts about the wisdom of banishing nuclear power if we are serious about cleaning up our energy supply.

Energiewende by the Numbers

First, let’s take a statistical tour of the German electricity sector in 2012, one that reveals the poor performance and intrinsic shortcomings of the most popular renewable technologies. (Most of these figures come from Germany’s BdeW utility consortium, an industry source that gathers data from all of Germany’s electric utilities, here and here.)

Renewable power is growing, but too slowly to take up the slack from nuclear shutdowns and also reduce fossil-fueled generation. The portion of German electricity generated by renewables rose from 20.3 percent in 2011 to 21.9 percent in 2012. Unfortunately, that was largely offset by a drop in nuclear’s share of generation due to the post-Fukushima shutdowns of reactors, from 17.7 percent in 2011 to 16.1 percent in 2012. Fossil-fueled generation edged up from 352 to 356 terawatt-hours (trillion watt-hours, TWh) and its share of total electricity production barely budged: 57. 8 percent in 2011 compared to 57.6 percent in 2012.

Worse, that fossil-fueled electricity got dirtier because of the “merit-order effect”: renewable power preferentially displaces expensive natural gas from the grid rather than cheaper coal. Natural gas–fired generation decreased, but coal-fired plants, which generate more pollution and greenhouse gases, increased their output by 14.5 TWh—more than the increase in renewable generation—and coal’s share of electricity production rose from 43.1 percent to 44.7 percent. Germany’s greenhouse emissions therefore rose 1.6 percent in 2012, the increase mostly coming from CO2 emissions by coal-burning power plants—up 3.4 percent for anthracite and 5.1 percent for lignite.

Wind and solar are doing even worse. Wind turbines and solar panels get all the press, but half the 2012 rise in renewable generation came from less glamorous and sustainable sources—hydro, biomass, and trash incinerators, which together contributed 9.9 percent of Germany’s electricity. These are more reliable technologies than wind and solar, but they won’t increase much: Germany has maxed out its suitable sites for hydro power, and large-scale biomass burning would level its forests and cripple food production. The Energiewende, therefore, relies on wind and solar to meet its ambitious targets—and is duly racking up huge increases in nameplate capacity. (“Nameplate capacity” or “nameplate power” is the maximum power a generator produces under ideal conditions—perfect winds, cloudless noon, fully stoked boiler.)
On paper the buildup of wind and solar looks colossal. In 2012 Germany built 7.6 gigawatts (GW, or one billion watts) of photovoltaic nameplate capacity and 2.4 GW of wind. Added to existing capacity, that brought total German wind and solar nameplate power to about 32 GW each at the end of 2012. Since it came online gradually, figure the average nameplate power in 2012 at about 30 GW of wind and 29 GW of solar—an enormous amount of capacity.

Unfortunately, the nameplate capacity trumpeted in the media is a drastically misleading measure of the electricity added to the grid. While wind and solar nameplate capacity represented 84 percent of Germany’s average electric power generation of 70.4 GW, it ultimately generated only 11.9 percent of total electricity (up from 11.2 percent in 2011). There are simple reasons for that discrepancy: night, cloud, and calm. The output of wind and solar generators varies wildly with weather and the time of day; during most hours they produce a small fraction of their nameplate power—or nothing at all.

The standard measure of that shortfall in electricity production compared to nameplate capacity is the “capacity factor”: the amount of electricity a generator produces in a year divided by the amount it would produce if it ran at nameplate capacity for all 8,760 hours. In 2012, German solar electricity production rose to 28 TWh from the 2011 figure of 19.3 TWh. But those solar panels would have produced 254 TWh had they run at full power for all 8,760 hours in the year, so they had a capacity factor of just 11 percent. Production from wind power, despite all the new turbines, actually declined to 46 TWh from the 2011 figure of 48.9 TWh. (Sun and wind anti-correlate, so the solar surge came at the expense of wind.) That puts the capacity factor of German wind at 17 percent. By comparison, fossil-fueled plants can achieve capacity factors of 80 percent or more. And electricity production from Germany’s 12 GW of nuclear capacity in 2012 was 99 TWh, a capacity factor of 94 percent. Even though Germany’s nuclear nameplate capacity was just one-fifth the size of its solar and wind nameplate capacity, those few nuclear gigawatts produced 35 percent more watt-hours of electricity than did all the wind and solar generators put together.

To get a more realistic picture of the renewables build-out, we need to think in terms of “average capacity”—the nameplate capacity multiplied by the capacity factor. By that metric, the 10 GW of wind and solar nameplate capacity added in 2012 really amounted to a measly 1.24 GW of average capacity. Compare that with the average capacity of, say, the Brokdorf nuclear reactor, whose 1.37 GW nameplate capacity would have an average capacity of 1.28 GW, generating as much carbon-free electricity as all the wind turbines and solar panels commissioned in 2012. At the current installation rate, it would take the wind and solar generator fleets some sixteen years to muster enough new average capacity to replace the 20.3 GW of Germany’s 2010 nuclear fleet—with nothing to spare for the displacement of fossil-fueled electricity in the meantime.

Because of the terrible performance of solar and onshore wind, Germany plans to build offshore wind turbines, which could have twice the capacity factor of onshore turbines (at twice the cost). Angela Merkel’s government has targeted 10 GW of offshore wind by 2020, according to Reuters. But assuming very optimistic capacity factors of 40 percent for offshore turbines—which would be higher than the average capacity factors in Britain and Denmark, the only countries with appreciable offshore wind—that 10 GW would represent average capacity of just 4 GW, less than a quarter of the 2010 nuclear capacity that will be shut down by 2022.

The Energiewende is building as much coal and gas capacity as it is wind and solar capacity—more, in fact, by the proper metric of average capacity. In 2012 Germany commissioned new coal-fired generators with combined nameplate power of 2.9 GW, which can run at capacity factors of 80 percent or better. That’s an average capacity of perhaps 2.3 GW—nearly twice as much as all the solar and wind power added in 2012. According to utility consortium BdeW, another 4.6 GW of coal power will come on line this year. Of a planned 42.5 GW of major power plants to be built by 2020, including offshore wind, pumped storage, hydro, and biomass, fully two-thirds—28.5 GW—will be new coal and gas generators. Taking into account their high capacity factors, in 2020 these new fossil-fueled plants will have more average capacity than all of Germany’s wind and solar generators combined. Partly they will replace older, dirtier coal plants, but there will be an overall expansion; a study by the German Energy Agency forecasts a net rise in coal and gas capacity from 76 GW in 2010 to 83 GW in 2030.

If the point is to eliminate greenhouse gases, why is the Energiewende turning to fossil fuels? The reason is that, in a crucial respect, wind and solar can never fully replace nuclear power, because they can’t equal the reliability of nuclear reactors. The main job of the new fossil-fueled plants is not to retire grungy old coal boilers, but to replace nukes with grungy new coal boilers. To see why, we have to consider the distinction between dispatchable and intermittent generators.

So far we’ve looked at aggregate generation—the total amount of electricity churned out during a whole year. But aggregate generation doesn’t cut it when it comes to electricity. To avoid blackouts and overloads, the grid has to match generation with consumption on a moment-to-moment basis, not on a yearly basis. Since it’s difficult and expensive to store electricity on a significant scale, the grid can’t bank much excess electricity production to draw on later during shortfalls; it has to reliably produce all the power demanded each moment, largely from generators then on line.

That’s an easy task with so-called “dispatchable” generators—nuclear, coal, gas, hydro, and biomass—that can ramp up and down on command to match their power output with current electricity demand. Unfortunately, wind turbines and photovoltaic panels can’t do that. They generate power when the wind and sun decree, often going dead when electricity is needed and then overproducing when it isn’t. These “intermittent” generators result in “common-mode failure”: night, winter, summer, and passing weather fronts cause swathes of generators to fizzle all at once, for weeks on end, on a continental and even hemispheric scale. Grid managers dread that kind of catastrophic unreliability, but it’s a daily reality for wind and solar.

Stats from the pro-renewables Fraunhofer Institute show how dire those common-mode failures can get. Had they been running constantly at nameplate capacity, solar and wind would have produced from 9 to 10.5 TWh each week. But during six separate weeks in 2012 they produced less than 9 percent of that nameplate generation for the entire week, and less than 7 percent during three of those weeks. During week 46, November 12 to 18, all the wind turbines and solar panels in Germany together produced just 0.51 TWh, generating a mere 3 GW of power on average out of their 63 GW of nameplate capacity—a weeklong capacity factor of just 4.8 percent. And these weekly aggregates leave out many two- and three-day periods when wind and solar slumped even further, generating essentially no electricity at all.

These numbers raise a sobering question: how will a Germany run largely on wind and solar generators survive the long periods when they shut down completely in the dead of winter? Overbuilding capacity won’t solve the problem. To generate its total yearly electricity consumption of 594 TWh, Germany would need about 484 GW of wind and solar nameplate capacity, almost eight times as much as it has now. But even this gargantuan over-capacity would have been insufficient during that moribund week 46, when it would have produced just 34 percent of Germany’s 68 GW or so of electric-power demand. And capacity expansion runs into a wall of diminishing returns: as Germany builds über-redundant wind and solar capacity to cover common-mode slumps, more and more electricity will be wasted during common-mode surges of overproduction; construction and overhead costs per usable kilowatt-hour will therefore skyrocket. Dispatchable renewables won’t help much because they don’t go to scale: hydro and geothermal capacity will max out at about 5 GW each, biomass at perhaps 8 GW. Nor will storage save the day. Germany has about 5 GW of pumped-hydro storage stations, maybe rising to 10 GW over the next few decades, but even generating at full power their small reservoirs would run dry in a day at most. If nuclear is out of the picture, that leaves only dispatchable coal- and gas-fired generators to bridge the gap when wind and solar collapse.

To escape long blackouts many times a year, Germany is planning to back up every gigawatt of wind and solar average capacity with another gigawatt of gas or coal. As it builds its intermittent fleet it will not be able to shut down existing fossil-fueled plants; they will remain in service, complete with staff, maintenance, and overhead expenses and the infrastructure of transmission lines, coal mines, and gas pipelines. And because the dispatchable nuclear generators that could have backed up wind and solar are being shuttered, additional coal and gas plants must be built to take their place—as we see happening now. Those coal and gas plants will emit large quantities of greenhouse gases even when idling in standby mode. And because that dispatchable fleet is both necessary and sufficient, the expense of a redundant wind and solar fleet running on top of it is pure waste from an economic standpoint. That’s one reason why wind and solar are the highest-cost options available for generating power.

The real decision we face isn’t whether to choose wind and solar over nuclear and coal, but rather which kind of dispatchable generator fleet to build. Should we build a largely fossil-fueled dispatchable fleet whose greenhouse emissions are then slowly and only partially abated by adding in wind and solar? Or should we build a low-carbon dispatchable fleet of hydro, geothermal, and, mainly, nuclear—a generator fleet that can eliminate greenhouse emissions without the expense of a “second grid” of wind and solar? The Energiewende has chosen the first option, locking Germany into a perpetual dependence on fossil fuels.
Things won’t get better for a long, long time. If Germany keeps up with the 2012 pace—a big “if”—it will meet its current target of raising the renewable share of electricity production to 35 percent by 2020. Yet the really important target isn’t the share of renewables on the grid but the share of “low-carbon” generation—both renewable and nuclear generation. By that metric, Germany will be at a standstill for quite some time.

At the planned and current rate of expansion, when the last German nuclear plants shut down in 2022, renewables will be generating about 38 percent of the electricity; with no more nukes in operation, that will be the total share of low-carbon electricity. But that’s almost exactly the same share of low-carbon electricity Germany produced in 2010, when the share was 38.8 percent—22.4 percent nuclear and 16.4 percent renewable. The next ten years will be a lost decade for German decarbonization efforts. Meanwhile, Germany’s coal and gas plants will spew as much pollution, methane, and carbon dioxide as ever.
But the German policy of favoring renewables over nuclear has been in effect for thirteen years now, so it’s more like a lost generation. In 1999, a peak year for nuclear power, the low-carbon share of electricity was 36 percent, with nuclear contributing 31 percent. Thus, during a twenty-three-year period of shuttering nukes and subsidizing renewables, from 1999 to 2022, Germany will have managed to decarbonize all of 2 additional percentage points of its electricity. The 2030 target is 50 percent low-carbon electricity (all renewables), an improvement of just 14 percent over the 1999 figure.

Cost of Renewable Electricity

Despite declining relative costs for wind and solar generators, the electricity they produce is still much more expensive than fossil-fueled and nuclear power. The German government therefore supports renewables with a web of subsidies and preferments designed to entice businesses and households to invest in them. The main subsidy is the feed-in tariff (FIT), which gives guarantees for renewable electricity at above-market-rate prices. The FITs generally last twenty years and are assessed according to a complex rate schedule. Onshore wind is currently guaranteed at least €89.3 per megawatt-hour (MWh) for the first five years of operation, after which the tariff resets to about €49, a little above market rate. Offshore wind will get €150 per MWh for the first twelve years before a downward reset, with long extensions if the facility is located more than twelve miles from shore or where water is at least twenty meters deep. Photovoltaic solar gets roughly €120-180 per MWh, depending on the size of the rig, for a full twenty years.

The tariffs are funded by a “renewable energy surcharge” added to electricity bills. A utility will pay a FIT of, say, €180 for a megawatt-hour of solar power; it will then sell that electricity on the wholesale market for perhaps €45 and charge the difference to the renewables surcharge. (Some energy-intensive businesses are exempted from most of the surcharge.) The tariff-surcharge mechanism seemed unobtrusive and benign when renewables were a sliver of electricity production, but swelling bolts of pricey wind and solar electricity have turned it into a Frankenstein’s monster. The FITs will cost €20.4 billion this year, according to the Financial Times, and to fund that the 2013 surcharge jumped 47 percent to 5.3 euro-cents per kilowatt-hour. The surcharge alone is 60 percent of the average total U.S. residential electricity rate.
The exploding subsidies have stirred political opposition and moves to retrench. Merkel’s environment minister, Peter Altmaier, has put forward a plan to cap surcharge hikes at 2.5 percent per year, while expanding their base by removing business exemptions. Der Spiegel has reported that he also wants to levy a new tax on renewable electricity itself (including rooftop solar for home use), reduce or eliminate FIT schedules entirely for some new renewable installations, and occasionally delay or suspend FIT payments.

The renewables industry and the Social Democratic-Green opposition have denounced Altmaier’s proposals, saying they will cripple investment in the sector. And indeed, that’s the idea—to hold back the renewables build-out that’s pumping up subsidies to insupportable levels (and out-running transmission capacity). New government targets cut the rate of photovoltaic installation in half to 2.5 to 3.5 GW per year (just a third of a gigawatt per year of average capacity.) Feed-in-tariffs for new solar are to end entirely after a total of 52 GW nameplate capacity has been installed, which will enlarge solar capacity by just 2 additional gigawatts of average capacity.

A bit schizophrenically, Altmaier also said recently that he wants to raise the renewables target to 40 percent of electricity production by 2020. Unfortunately, his new program of caps, cuts, and slowdowns make even the current 35 percent target look iffy. The current €20.4 billion yearly renewable surcharge is largely needed just to pay FITs already grandfathered in for existing generators. Enlarging the surcharge base by ending business exemptions can increase the revenue stream somewhat, but Germany’s almighty export sector will fight those rate hikes. (High electricity prices and spreading power outages that damage industrial machinery are prompting German manufacturers to shift production elsewhere.) Additional huge infrastructure expenses will have to be added into general electricity rates, including €20 billion to pay for new power lines to offshore wind farms by 2020. Subsidy cuts have been blocked in the Bundesrat by the Greens and Social Democrats and will stay blocked at least until the September election. But if they go through—and it’s hard to see how they can be avoided—they will likely burst Germany’s green-investment bubble and bring the Energiewende to a screeching halt.

Renewable Riches?

Even as the Energiewende staggers under exorbitant costs, renewables boosters tout its success in lowering electricity prices. The strange truth is, they’re not wrong. Tides of wind and solar electricity are forcing down prices on European wholesale markets and eroding the profits of conventional plants. French business leaders have complained about the competitive advantage their German rivals get because their renewable power is now cheaper than France’s nuclear electricity.

Is renewable power winning a price war with Big Fossil and Nuclear? Not really. Germany’s feed-in tariffs disguise the fact that intermittent wind and solar power isn’t cheap at all—although it is often worthless. German grid operators are legally required to buy all the electricity wind turbines and solar panels produce, demand or no demand, at prices far above market rates. Having bought it, they then have to get rid of it, because an excess of electricity supply will crash the grid. So they dump it on the wholesale electricity market at bargain-basement rates. Midday solar dumps in sunny weather particularly eat into the profits of conventional plants by pushing down prices during times of elevated demand.

These subsidies and market distortions do not yield a systemic lowering of electricity costs. They are simply transfers from German households that drastically overpay on surcharges to renewable generators—and to electricity-hogging industries that are exempt from surcharges but benefit from lower wholesale electricity prices when wind and solar flood the market. Also benefiting are foreigners who buy German electricity and energy-intensive products. Germany’s subsidized electricity exports jumped from 6 TWh in 2011 to 23 TWh in 2012. Eventually someone will bring a World Trade Organization anti-dumping case against the Energiewende; Poland and the Czech Republic are already threatening to block transmission from Germany to prevent wind power surges from crashing their grids.

Although renewables subsidies may wreck the margins of conventional power plants, they won’t necessarily cut emissions. Utilities don’t like to make way for intermittent renewable surges by turning off coal, nuclear, and combined-cycle gas plants; firing up the boilers after a shut-down takes time and wastes fuel and money, and they will need those generators back on line, quickly, when wind and solar cut out. To cope with the oversupply during surges, increasingly they are resorting to “negative pricing”—which simply means that utilities pay customers to waste renewable electricity instead of using it to abate greenhouse gases. And as subsidized and even “negative” renewables prices push conventional plants into the red, the subsidy regime will need to expand to embrace fossil fuels, the necessary back-up for intermittent generators in the absence of nuclear. “Capacity markets” that pay fossil-fueled plants to remain on standby are now being debated in Germany and France.

The Energiewende will come to this: corporate welfare for coal-burners in the name of clean energy.

The Alternative to Alternative Energy

Germany is phasing out its nuclear power plants because of safety concerns and is unlikely to reverse course anytime soon. And the nuclear renaissance has bogged down in the rest of the West, too, with massive delays and cost overruns on every new reactor. The obstacles are many: first-of-a-kind costs for new models; the rustiness of an atrophied construction industry and supply chain; neoliberal electricity markets and financing mechanisms that favor natural gas over everything; strangling red tape. Acknowledging all these problems, let’s do a thought experiment: how much low-carbon energy could Germany get by 2030 if it diverted its renewables surcharge into a nuclear Energiewende?

For this exercise I’ll use as a cost model the poster-child of nuclear boondoggles: the French Evolutionary Pressurized Reactor project at Flamanville. Now limping toward a 2016 finish line, the reactor is four years behind schedule and, at €8.5 billion, more than twice over budget. For revenue I’ll assume that a nuclear Energiewende can spend no more than the €20.4 billion per year that the 2013 renewable surcharge will bring in (only a portion of the funds slated for renewables). I’ll also assume that Germany uses as much power in 2030 as it does now, although targets call for trimming electricity consumption. Finally, I’ll insist on the obvious—turning all of Germany’s 2010 reactors back on and leaving them on.

Given these parameters, let’s see what a nuclear Energiewende could accomplish by 2030, with a total budget of €367 billion (€20.4 a year for eighteen years). At €8.5 billion a pop, Germany could buy forty-three EPRs, each with a nameplate capacity of 1.65 GW. Add the 20.3 GW Germany had in 2010 and that’s 91 GW of low-carbon nuclear power. Let’s assume a nuclear capacity factor of 75 percent. (Why so low? Because they will “load-follow”—raise and lower their output to follow electricity demand—instead of running at maximum power 24/7 in “baseload” as they do now.) That’s an average capacity of 68 GW, exactly equal to Germany’s average power consumption in 2012 (based on total consumption of 594 TWh), and a peak capacity of 91 GW, a comfortable margin over the peak electricity demand of 82 GW.
In other words, a dispatchable nuclear grid could supply all of Germany’s electricity in 2030, not just the 50 percent target for renewables in the Energiewende. By comparison, Altmaier’s latest prediction estimates a price tag for renewables of €1 trillion by the end of the 2030s, for a grid that would still be roughly 35 percent fossil-fueled. A nuclear build-out could completely decarbonize the German grid by 2030 at less than one-third the cost of a renewables Energiewende that would still produce massive greenhouse emissions.

Wind and solar have lower nameplate prices than nuclear, but they seem cheap only if we ignore capacity factors and don’t count the systemic costs of chaotic intermittency: redundant transmission lines strung in from deserts, prairies, and oceans; redundant pumped-hydro storage stations; dispatchable generators to balance the intermittency; end users who have to rearrange their electricity consumption around “demand management” schemes geared to the whims of the weather; grid operators who graciously serve as buyers of last resort for surplus renewable electricity and then dump it on Poland or pay people to waste it. Nuclear power plants, by contrast, generate a prodigious amount of electricity per gigawatt of capacity and stabilize the grid rather than imposing fickleness costs. With nuclear power, there’s no need to build redundant capacity, storage, and transmission; subsidize back-up coal plants; or annoy the public with electricity-rationing meters.

The nuclear build-out I outline above would be ambitious. (The worst bottleneck would be training a skilled work force.) On the other hand, the economies of scale from a systematic deployment would substantially lower costs. China is building two EPRs at Taishan; the first is due to start up next year after a five-year build, at half the cost of the Flamanville reactor. If Germany managed to crank out EPRs on China’s timetable, it could save immensely on unit costs and build many more nuclear plants for the money than I estimated.

And thanks to the example of France, we know these goals can be met. During the twenty years after its decision in 1974 to decarbonize its grid, France managed to convert 90 percent of its electricity generation to low-carbon nuclear—about 80 percent—and hydro. Germany is bravely planning to hit 80 percent low-carbon electricity by 2050.

Unfortunately, France is now following Germany’s lead on energy policy under a Socialist Party that has forgotten its own stewardship of the nuclear project and caved to its Green coalition partners. François Hollande’s government intends to cut nuclear’s share of electricity production to 50 percent in 2025, according to Businessweek, by shuttering reactors and canceling new builds, while increasing renewables’ share from their present 16 percent to 23 percent in 2020. If renewables reach 30 percent by 2025, then in that year France will be generating 80 percent of its electricity from low-carbon sources; its current share is 91 percent. So rather than making more progress in decarbonizing France’s energy supply, Hollande’s proposals take a long stride backward. They will also raise electricity prices, damage the economy, and exacerbate austerity policies by diverting funds away from social spending. Unions at the Fessenheim nuclear plant are fighting Hollande’s plan to close the facility by the end of 2016. That 1.8 GW plant alone can produce nearly three times as much low-carbon electricity as the combined output of all the solar panels in France.

That Germany has become the bellwether for energy policy in Europe and the world is one of the more demoralizing ironies of our day. The Energiewende is not the swift, bold advance that greens imagine but a slow, timid, and inadequate response to the crisis of climate change. It represents a failure of nerve, a failure of imagination, and a failure of arithmetic. It is visibly failing now, and if it succeeds in all its stated goals it will still fail. It is failing for a simple reason: the environmental movement, whose signal triumph is its influence over energy policy, has rejected nuclear power—the best source of clean energy we have.[/quote]

Fred, do you even read anything I wrote before posting your interminable rants?

I was pointing out that governments have basically done nothing useful, preferring to tip money into pie-in-the-sky schemes instead of proven technology that everyone knows how to build.

That the preferred investment target would be energy sinks, not sources.

Also pointing out that a carbon tax would disappear into the same sinkhole.

I’ll elaborate later.

Here is what you wrote and I imagine you were directing this somewhat at me.

But, apparently, with a secret decoder ring that is worn by you and only a few select others, this is actually what you said:

[quote]Fred, do you even read anything I wrote before posting your interminable rants?

I was pointing out that governments have basically done nothing useful, preferring to tip money into pie-in-the-sky schemes instead of proven technology that everyone knows how to build.

That the preferred investment target would be energy sinks, not sources.

Also pointing out that a carbon tax would disappear into the same sinkhole.[/quote]

But, no doubt, we have much to look forward to in terms of clarification, as you will:

No doubt, this will be more heart-warming testimony of what solar panels can do for the rural economy in the Philippines IF ONLY the natives could see the superiority of your agricultural management techniques. FOOLS!

Yup, because you’re right back to your assertion that any investment made by governments is by definition wasted. Presumably that would also apply to investment in roads, garbage collection, legal systems, healthcare, police, army, etc etc? Fact is, fred, you only disapprove of state subsidy when it conflicts with your religion.

No, just two eyes and an attention span longer than a seagull’s. I suggested this as an example of stuff governments should be doing:

[i]- Build some highly-visible public infrastructure projects, such as light rail or PRT, that are designed right off the bat to be “dual fuel”: that is, it’ll run off the grid, as it stands now, or it’ll run just as well (or better) from renewables. This could be done with any number of financing models: BOT seems to be fashionable at the moment.

  • Do it in provincial towns, not in major cities. Three reasons: 1) massive economic stimulus in areas that badly need it, ie., rapid payback on investment, 2) much easier planning and land acquisition, 3) an expanded base of happy voters.

  • Roll out big PV farms along the length of the new transport infrastructure with spare capacity, and encourage building companies to put up industrial estates (or residences) nearby. Offer nice power tariffs to tenants that will ensure load balancing (ie., high prices at transport rush hour and low prices at off-peak times).[/i]

Energy sinks, fred. Big ones, that will absorb output from (future) renewable-power systems and turn it into economic growth. You provide the energy sinks first. The things that deliver some service, something that people can use right now in place of what they’ve got. Get them out of their cars and into state-of-the-art PRT. Use established, boring technology that’s been on the market for 20 years. Once it’s built (and running off the grid), PV system installers can bid for the power supply contract, undercutting the fossil-fuel suppliers.

This is pretty much what governments are good at - or were, until the collapse of the USSR and everyone decided that state industries were stupid. Which they are … with the crucial exception of natural monopolies, of which national transportation is a good example.

What the government absolutely should not be doing is acting as a VC or business angel. I’ve got quite a bit of experience with the UK version of this system: it’s basically social security for the rich. I know one guy who makes a nice living from applying for government grants for pie-in-the-sky nonsense. Five grand here; ten grand there; it all adds up. You think a lot of money disappears down the solar-power rabbithole? That’s barely 1% of it. There are people buying new BMWs right now with government money, and I’m willing to bet most of them didn’t have the word ‘sustainable’ anywhere on their application forms.

[quote]Yup, because you’re right back to your assertion that
any
investment made by governments is by definition wasted.[/quote]

Hmmm. Is that what I am saying? any investment? or am I saying government investment in “fighting” global warming (SORRY!!! CLIMATE CHANGE!!!) has been less than a stellar success? I merely ask because that is sorta kinda governed by the title of this thread.

Why would you say “presumably” when you just said that I was “right back to [my] assertion that ANY investment”

again hypothetical… when you were stating that we were right back to…

Have fun backing up that statement with relevant quotes of mine.

Again with the definite assurances? when it was “would” and “presumably” just a few sentences ago?

Yeah… that must be it… and no doubt it is my disproval that has held back our glorious carbon-free world from coming into being.

Try to keep up, fred. I was being facetious. My point was that these are by their nature loss-making enterprises. None of them makes profit, but they’re all necessary. And I guess fred smith does approve of them, even though they’re a “waste of money”.

Transport is necessary. It doesn’t make a profit on every route, but it can break even in the long term, and it creates positive externalities. It’s therefore a good investment for governments to get involved in, and a bad one for private companies (precisely because they can’t directly profit from positive externalities).

So give us a simple yes or no: do you approve of governments building:

  • Roads?
  • Ports?
  • Railways?
  • PRT systems?

If not, why not? I’m guessing you approve only of the ones that generate maximum smoke.

I approve of government subsidies… Big Ones … to pay for farmers in rural areas, particularly expatriate ones who know what is best… Is that the right answer?

Absolutely. You’ve successfully evaded another challenge to the dogma of the Church of Fred with a completely irrelevant comment. Disengage! Disengage! Crisis averted!

I reckon you just need a damn good thrashing.

I love it when you get all big and talk farm. When do I get to visit this Edenic, er, paradise in the Philippines? Do you make your own wine, olive oil and cured ham as well? One looks forward with great anticipation to your “Summer in Iloyo” or will it be “View from the Visayas” or perhaps “Loco in Iloco…” I do oh so look forward to hearing more… as long as it does not take place in Cebu or Mindinao. They don’t lend themselves to catchy titles. See? Boo! See what I mean… “Madness in Mindinao?” No. “Mucking It up in Mindinao,” hmmmm noo… “Microfarming in Mindinao,” hmmm lacks punch and could read more as a developmental treatise for earnest do-gooder types. Nope. Better stick with the Visayas… so much more poetry in motion.

I’m backlogged on responses, but gotta share this, as it’s creepily familiar: