[quote=“Comrade Stalin”][quote=“TomHill”]
One surprising thing is that people who are recognized Christians on this site have argued for their right to blaspheme against God. These cartoons are fundamentally an attack upon God and upon religion, so I am confused as to how a Christian would find the cartoons anything other than offensive?[/quote]
[color=blue]Allah is not God.[/color] I think God can take care of himself.[/quote]
Since when was Allah not God? Did I miss something? Was a resolution passed?
[quote=“TomHill”][quote=“Comrade Stalin”][quote=“TomHill”]
One surprising thing is that people who are recognized Christians on this site have argued for their right to blaspheme against God. These cartoons are fundamentally an attack upon God and upon religion, so I am confused as to how a Christian would find the cartoons anything other than offensive?[/quote]
[color=blue]Allah is not God.[/color] I think God can take care of himself.[/quote]
Since when was Allah not God? Did I miss something? Was a resolution passed?[/quote]
No, you didn’t. Jews< Christians and Muslims all worship the same god - the god of Abraham.
[quote=“TomHill”]I think a central point here is that the cartoons did not just depict Mohammed, they deliberately set out to mock the Prophet and therefore the religion. The argument really boils down to the Europeans saying, ‘we defend our right to deliberately offend you,’ and I think this is a serious skewing of the freedom of speech. Especially when blood will be shed, once again, over a point of law. I understand why people still wish to defend this right to say whatever, and to mock whomever, but essentially the cartoons were just plain bad judgement and an apology should have been made to the Muslim people’s of the world.
One surprising thing is that people who are recognized Christians on this site have argued for their right to blaspheme against God. These cartoons are fundamentally an attack upon God and upon religion, so I am confused as to how a Christian would find the cartoons anything other than offensive?[/quote]
I’m not a Christian, and I see them as social commentary. The one of Mohamed with bomb-headgear seemed very pertinent to those Muslims who have been feeling the rage of Allah recently.
Mocking is social commentary of one sort or another isn’t it? Who’s the bald singer who tore up the Pope’s picture on Saturday Night Live? Commentary.
Since religion is part of society and culture, then mocking it for reasons of pointing out hypocrisy or perceived hypocrisy seems a necessary function of society.
Suicide bombers who are promised virgins in heaven are ripe for social commentary if you ask me; and the mocking tone that there are no more virgins, so stop blowing people up, seems way fair game in my godless book.
[quote=“Comrade Stalin”][quote=“TomHill”]
Since when was Allah not God? Did I miss something? Was a resolution passed?[/quote]
Yes, I guess you missed the past 1400 years of history.[/quote]
You mean there is more than one God? Does the Christian God know about this?
Tainan Cowboy, I reckon you are wrong. I reckon Muslims, Rastafarians, Jews and Christians alike all worship the same God.
[quote=“TomHill”][quote=“Comrade Stalin”][quote=“TomHill”]
Since when was Allah not God? Did I miss something? Was a resolution passed?[/quote]
Yes, I guess you missed the past 1400 years of history.[/quote]
You mean there is more than one God? Does the Christian God know about this?
Tainan Cowboy, I reckon you are wrong. I reckon Muslims, Rastafarians, Jews and Christians alike all worship the same God.[/quote]
Since you’re not sure who you’re replying to here, there’s a good chance you don’t know what you’re talking about.
[quote=“Comrade Stalin”][quote=“TomHill”][quote=“Comrade Stalin”][quote=“TomHill”]
Since when was Allah not God? Did I miss something? Was a resolution passed?[/quote]
Yes, I guess you missed the past 1400 years of history.[/quote]
You mean there is more than one God? Does the Christian God know about this?
Tainan Cowboy, I reckon you are wrong. I reckon Muslims, Rastafarians, Jews and Christians alike all worship the same God.[/quote]
Since you’re not sure who you’re replying to here, there’s a good chance you don’t know what you’re talking about.[/quote]
Crap, that was a large fudge up on my part there Comrade Stalin. Didn’t look closely enough. Either way, that God thing, you are still wrong.
Right,
Mohammed is not God. Mohammed is a prophet of God.
The word ‘Allah’ means God, as do the words ‘Yahweh,’ ‘Elohim,’ and ‘Jehovah.’
Christians, Jews and Muslims all recognize and worship the exact same God. This is the God of Noah, Abraham, Moses and JC. Muslim theology is a continuation of the Zoroastrian-Judeo-Christian tradition.
[quote="Elegua"The difference is that Islam is an absolutist, xenophobic, violent and repressive religion that cannot accept/recognize the existance of any other religion. Even Ghandi couldn’t deal with them.[/quote]
Um…one problem with this argument… some of the most xenophobic countries in the world take up three continents…I’ll give you a hint: it’s not Asia, Africa, or South America and no one live in Antarctica permanently. Islam is a minority religion of the people who make up their repsective governments and population majorities.
Christianity is accepting of other religions? So why are there millions of them out there trying to convert others to their religion instead of leaving them alone?
Let’s compare the most important tenet of Christian dogma with Islamic dogma:
“Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.” - Acts 3: 10-12 (In other words, only those who believe in Christianity can know God)
“Whoever submits His whole self to God and is a doer of good,- He will get his reward with his Lord; on such shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.” - Surah 2 Verses 111 - 112
Of course, Christians will all be appalled that I would even suggest that their sole claim to God is not right.
Some Muslims and Islamic governments may be backwards in their treatment of their people and take many items of Islam out of context and warp it to fit their needs, but that does not mean all people who adhere to this belief deserve the heaps of disrespect shown to their religion.
For those who feel the Danes involved in this are justified because of what some extremists have done…
“An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth only makes us blind and toothless.”
I might suggest that some folks on here do some research into the origins of Islam.
It might help to defuse a bit of this sanctimonius self-righteous lather than some folks are working themselves into.
Do some research folks. Some unbiased fact-based research and learn a bit about the subject.
[quote]Exodus 20:
2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
13 Thou shalt not kill.
14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
15 Thou shalt not steal.
16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.[/quote]
I have a lot of trouble with this one. Seems like when you get to heaven it’s not going to be a fun place. God takes him/her self very seriously.
I’m also having a little difficulty with Number 17 and the various things that one may have an urge to covet.
I am absolutely perplexed of how you manage to survive in the IP Forum with such flawed logic as genetic fallacy…
Anyway, this is a reply to you. For your own enlightenment, if you are into such banalities as seeing things from others’ perspectives, you might want to peruse this article. Nama, you might to take a look too.
Many Muslims prefer to use the word “Allah” over “God” in English. My friend Luay explained this to me and in this I paraphrase him. In English, you can change “God” to “god” and make it insignificant. You can make “God” plural to imply there is more than one God. You can make “God” feminine to imply that God has a gender. But in Arabic, Allah cannot be changed morphemically.
Allah is simply Arabic for “the one true God”. It is no different than Spanish speakers praying to “Dios”, the French to “Dieu”, or the Germans to “Gott”. So in essence, the Danes were making fun of your God, people. The God of Abraham. No one has exclusive possession of God, not even the Muslims. I suppose some are too happy to make fun of Muslims to have made that connection.
Weren’t the cartoons making fun not of Muslims but of dirty scum-sucking murdering bastard Islamofascists? The Klu Klux Klan were Christians weren’t they? But it seems OK to make fun of them. Same with the white supremacist dudes, right? So were the Nazis, if it comes to that, but a man with a bomb and a turban immediately becomes yer average “Joe Muslim?” Not in my book.
[quote=“TomHill”]I think a central point here is that the cartoons did not just depict Mohammed, they deliberately set out to mock the Prophet and therefore the religion. The argument really boils down to the Europeans saying, ‘we defend our right to deliberately offend you,’ and I think this is a serious skewing of the freedom of speech. Especially when blood will be shed, once again, over a point of law. I understand why people still wish to defend this right to say whatever, and to mock whomever, but essentially the cartoons were just plain bad judgement and an apology should have been made to the Muslim people’s of the world.
One surprising thing is that people who are recognized Christians on this site have argued for their right to blaspheme against God. These cartoons are fundamentally an attack upon God and upon religion, so I am confused as to how a Christian would find the cartoons anything other than offensive?[/quote]
Tom,
I don’t think anyone disputes that some Moslems would find those cartoons offensive. I understand that they might very well be profoundly offended. Just as some Christians were deeply offended by Mapplethorpe’s “Piss Christ”… the artwork comprised of a crucifix placed in a jar of urine.
No doubt that stuff offends people.
However, in the US, the big hullaballoo about “Piss Christ” was whether the State should fund that art, or whether such art should have to stand on its own. In much of the Islamic world, the hullaballoo resultant from the cartoons of the prophet is whether western people should be stoned to death or beheaded.
IMHO, no insult ever provides a justifiable reason for murder. As we learned in grade school, sticks and stones will break my bones… but, names will never hurt me.
For the record, I generally stay out of political and religious discourse because I don’t tolerate the willfully ignorant very well. But I got sick and tired of the hypocrisy and ignorance being displayed by people I have come to know as being more intelligent and enlightened than that. By posting on this subject, I hope to eliminate ignorance in all but those who cling to the need for superiority through dispaging others - some things are just impossible.
Unfortunately what the relgious bigots demand is the acknowledgement of their assorted gods as a zero sum game. They are demanding I accept their belief systems as valid and untouchable or else. My belief system is that they are entitled to their views, no matter how insane I may personally deem them. They are free to crticise my thinking and mock it to the cows come home. However, I also retain the right to mock them, but not stop them. A dance of sorts.
Um…one problem with this argument… some of the most xenophobic countries in the world take up three continents…I’ll give you a hint: it’s not Asia, Africa, or South America and no one live in Antarctica permanently. Islam is a minority religion of the people who make up their repsective governments and population majorities.
Christianity is accepting of other religions? So why are there millions of them out there trying to convert others to their religion instead of leaving them alone?
Let’s compare the most important tenet of Christian dogma with Islamic dogma:
“Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.” - Acts 3: 10-12 (In other words, only those who believe in Christianity can know God)
“Whoever submits His whole self to God and is a doer of good,- He will get his reward with his Lord; on such shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.” - Surah 2 Verses 111 - 112
Of course, Christians will all be appalled that I would even suggest that their sole claim to God is not right.
Some Muslims and Islamic governments may be backwards in their treatment of their people and take many items of Islam out of context and warp it to fit their needs, but that does not mean all people who adhere to this belief deserve the heaps of disrespect shown to their religion.
For those who feel the Danes involved in this are justified because of what some extremists have done…
"An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth only makes us blind and toothless.[/quote]
Possibly I overcooked it a bit but somehow to me “Excluding” non-believers from salvation is a bit different from saying that non-believers should be taxed heavily and/or killed. It’s been some time since Christians cut off the head of teenage girls (indonesia).
Anyway… I’m not necessarily looking at this from a “Christian” point of view - we’ve got the same jealous God.
Before partition Ghandi said to Nehru - look, we can get along, God has many faces; which of course was appalling to Islam, and history has recorded the consequences
And if you’re referring to Europe and the US; they have big issues with race - but it’s a long way from what is going on in any country where muslims are the majority. Just ask Hindu’s or Christians in Malasia or Indonesia. What about Darfur?
So…while I think the cartoons were stupid and disrespectful, the world of Islam is behaving like children (with rather serious consequences). And I ask that they apologize for all those lampoons of Jews - But I’ll not be holding my breath.
[/url]
Sandman, it wasn’t an attempt to make fun of Islamists. It was meant to make fun of all Muslims…I believe the request was to make a picture of Muhammed as he would be seen today. In other words, a call to stereotype Muslims.
I have a proposition: Draw a picture of Uncle Tom as he would look if he were alive today.
[quote]Sandman, it wasn’t an attempt to make fun of Islamists. It was meant to make fun of all Muslims…I believe the request was to make a picture of Muhammed as he would be seen today. In other words, a call to stereotype Muslims.
[/quote]
And so what? If I had a dollar for everytime the West or Isreal or Judeism was lampooned by the Arab media I’d be a millionaire. If the US or Isreal responded with violence each time there would be nothing left of the Arab Street
Didn’t look closely enough. Either way, that God thing, you are still wrong. 