I Think I've Had Enough Of Taiwan Already

Elegua · March 18, 2007, 3:40pm

[quote=“Huang Guang Chen”][quote=“llary”]Well I wasn’t too happy that half of the decent Taichung foreigner community has upped sticks this year but life goes on, eh?

I think I’ve decided that when my ARC comes up for expiration I’m just not going to try very hard to renew it. If it gets renewed, I’ll stay, if I get rejected, whoops, Japan…[/quote]

Must have missed the bit about redwagon’s departure. There certainly does seem to have been something of an exodus. I guess those that have been around longer can fill us in if this is a cyclical norm.

However, considering what an upbeat place it was ten years ago - stocks were buoyant, people generally optimistic about the future - as long as China didn’t drop the bomb (the reduction of that threat is a BIG plus), martial law had ended and a vibrant democracy was taking shape, laws concerning women and abusive husbands were being put together, etc, which in a way lent a sense that even the petty bureaucratic nightmares in getting visas/businesses together would likewise one day see some decent and real changes. Base salaries for casual teachers were something like translatable to other places in the world that weren’t on UN travel warning lists. It was a very exciting place to be. However, I don’t get that feeling now. Seems to me the economic bite and vacuum from all that manufacturing shifting to China has quite naturally caused a shift in the minds of the local folks.

Obviously there are many who have managed to sort out a life that agrees with them in Taiwan and I’m sure many fresh of the boat today will manage the same.

However, for me, struggling in a Taipei office under petty and vicious management on a pittance relative to anything outside the country and having just left a pre-weiya meeting where the boss in mentioning New Year bonuses told us all to forget it, there wasn’t going to be any, and instead that he was thinking of sacking us all . . . well 20 minutes later when that head hunter called offering to double my salary if I’d shift to HK (which I loathed then and loathe even more now), well that was just too damned good to refuse.

I left a fantastic group of friends, a truly remarkable woman I was married to (but trusted the time away wouldn’t damage our marriage - it did, and that was all my fault and weakness) and a deep love for Taiwan, its people in general, it’s culture, food, and even all its foibles, and made that move to HK.

I now work in a foreign company, which is a true meritocracy, earning a wage that has risen steadily and is readily translatable to anywhere in the first world (though the higher costs cap some of those gains), have enjoyed some very nice promotions in recognition of my efforts and am generally positive about my future.

On the flip side, I’ve not met anything like the wonderful friends* I have in Taiwan - most of whom don’t post on Forumosa, the Forumosa community folks, many of whom I haven’t met, and the truly fantastic ones I have. And yeah, I miss Taiwan dearly. But there is no way in hell I would ever go back there to live on anything but my own highly stringent terms.

Erh, sorry for the ramble.

HG

I have a theory on this, and that is that Taiwan is just that much further up river than HK. That means the people that tend to end up there are generally more interesting and certainly more willing to try and adapt to a different culture. The foreign folks in HK can rarely utter a word in any other language even to save their lives and generally carry on here much as they did at home. There are deep, deep divisions between the locals and us and in many ways it is all justified.[/quote]

110 % agreement on that.

James651 · March 18, 2007, 3:59pm

the first 700 goddamn times it happened it didn’t bother me… now it’s starting to get tiresome and predictable.
I wish some joker would break the monotony and actually ask me something clever and interesting like “where’s my cheese whiz, boy?”[/quote]

I can understand that and I have only been living here in Taiwan for a little more than a year (first in Kaohsiung then now in Taipei), so maybe I’m still a rookie here. But I have found from my frequent use of the MRT as I trough through crowds of people who look like they got an rusted iron rods up their a___ and are as silent as a ninja on sleeping pills, I find it pretty nice and unintimidating when one them opens up and asks with a gentle smile “Where are you from?”. I always respond with honesty that I am from USA and say that with a smile as well. Interestingly enough I had one of these conversations which turned into a lengthy discussion with a Middle age taiwanese guy who imports goods (can’t remember what kind-hmmm) to colombia and latin america. As well as having a discussion on globalization issues and the whole conversation started with him saying “Where are you from?”.

As for Taiwan, there’s no doubt much better places in Asia than here. But do the places allow you to save loads of cash, live and mingle with fascinating, hard working waiguorens (I know there’s some bastards here, but go to Thailand and you’ll find that foreigners in thailand make foreigners in Taiwan look like ivy league graduates who attain the highest levels of moral society) and also eat cheap good food-at least IMO.

Huang_Guang_Chen · March 18, 2007, 4:28pm

Just to be extremely clear. There is no reason anyone else’s prior time and reflections on Taiwan should in any way or form shape the legitimacy of the experience you are having right now.

In fact, I’m envious.

HG

hypermegaglobal · March 18, 2007, 6:21pm

So that’s why… and I was thinking Taiwan has actually become more cosmopolitan because nobody stared at me or pointed me out to their kids during my short CNY visit. Now I find out it’s because I wasn’t smiling enough. Figures.

That brings my “list of things that have improved” down to:

Southbound traffic on CNY’s eve. Thanks to the “3 occupants per car”-rule, it wasn’t as bad as I had expected:
Children’s English: At the obligatory family dinner, they could say more than just “hello”.
Food: Imported food can be found easily. Organic produce has become much more widely available. Mushrooms (other than shiitake) have become very popular.

Furthermore, I came across a somewhat “German” bakery in Taichung and even found Pão de Queijo near the train station (a far cry from the Brazilian original, but I guess that’s because it made its way to Taiwan through Japan).

Sure, the weather in Taipei still sucked:

Overall, I left with the impression that Taiwan has become more liveable. If you’d asked me 7 years ago if I’d consider moving to Taiwan, I’d have said “no way”. Today, I’d ask you for a good business plan. Should I be worried?

llary · March 18, 2007, 6:42pm

[quote=“Huang Guang Chen”][quote=“llary”]Well I wasn’t too happy that half of the decent Taichung foreigner community has upped sticks this year but life goes on, eh?

I think I’ve decided that when my ARC comes up for expiration I’m just not going to try very hard to renew it. If it gets renewed, I’ll stay, if I get rejected, whoops, Japan…[/quote]

Must have missed the bit about redwagon’s departure. There certainly does seem to have been something of an exodus. I guess those that have been around longer can fill us in if this is a cyclical norm.

However, considering what an upbeat place it was ten years ago - stocks were buoyant, people generally optimistic about the future - as long as China didn’t drop the bomb (the reduction of that threat is a BIG plus), martial law had ended and a vibrant democracy was taking shape, laws concerning women and abusive husbands were being put together, etc, which in a way lent a sense that even the petty bureaucratic nightmares in getting visas/businesses together would likewise one day see some decent and real changes. Base salaries for casual teachers were something like translatable to other places in the world that weren’t on UN travel warning lists. It was a very exciting place to be. However, I don’t get that feeling now. Seems to me the economic bite and vacuum from all that manufacturing shifting to China has quite naturally caused a shift in the minds of the local folks. [/quote]

I’m certainly not here for the money which makes me wonder sometimes why I AM here. I’m self employed which makes things much more bearable but not necessarily easier. Dealing with customs, banks, police, neighbours is a constant. fucking. grind. 90% of government/banking related chores involve entering my dirty FCxxxxxxxx ID number which invariably fails, and it gets worse from there.

I have met a lot more interesting foreigners in Taiwan than other parts of Asia but then it’s the sort of place where you either have to develop a thick skin and sense of humour or leave. Or both.

I hope redwagon doesn’t mind me quoting him here but he often told me that one of Taiwan’s biggest disappointments for him was lack of progress - and in the case of Taichung, backwards progress. My chirpy optimism has already been chipped away in less than two years, so how pissed off am I going to be in 10? 20? I also had a chat with the one whose wagon is red about friend churn and apparently it never gets easier, which I can damn well believe.

You’re one of the Forumosans I always wanted to meet but never got the chance so here’s hoping I get some excuse to pass through HK sometime soon

llary · March 18, 2007, 6:52pm

[quote=“guangtou”]Words of wisdom from the HG. I packed up and ran because I could see myself doing the same job at 45 and totally unemployable back home in Oz. Where there’s growth there’s opportunity, and Taiwan is stuck in a low-growth rut now - has been since 2001. The likelihood of a return to the 90’s is remote unless there is some radical change in policy. This is unlikely to happen as, going forward, any Prez is likely to be hamstrung in what he/she can do. So no three links, no mass sell-off of SOEs, no roll-back of fiscal debt, and no end to the money-politics that reduces infrastructure development to a myriad of difang paixi payoffs. I saw the best of Taiwan (first turned up in 1995) and the worst (left about 6 weeks ago). The place is looking more and more like an unstable Latin American country than a sporty East Asian NIC. We can argue who is to blame for this poor performance, but ultimately, who cares about the color of the incompetence?

Llary, not sure what you’re looking for out of life, but as a businessman, the 'wan probably isn’t the best place to make money in East Asia.[/quote]

I never went to university and technically never even finished high school so I was unemployable in England anyway My academic career hit a high when I won a poetry competition aged 9 and decided to quit while I was ahead. Maybe if I spent some more time in school I would have figured out that Taiwan would start grinding me down but hey, I have no regrets and the world is still wide open.

thyrdrail · March 19, 2007, 12:28am

would you all consider living in south korea? and if you have, how would you compare it with taiwan?

Huang_Guang_Chen · March 19, 2007, 12:51am

Would you consider a bullet in your head? Have you ever met Korean blokes? Can you even begin to imagine a whole nation of them?

llary. Realise you’re circumstances differ, but I was trying to be more general in my reponse. The crux in your case though was how the attitude of the local folks towards foreigners may have changed given the economic slide.

Like to meet you too, mate. in HK or standing on your balcony trying to blast down your neighbour’s walls with some mad shit on the stereo at some ungodly hour.

But if you are ever passing this way, do drop a line.

Cheers.

HG

Lord_Lucan · March 19, 2007, 2:17am

The other option is to move to China where everyone hates it and you can just get on with things, bitching and moaning all the way of course, without everyone telling you “Well, old moany pants, you call always leave if you don’t like it, nyuk, nyuk, nyuk!”

llary · March 19, 2007, 7:55am

Well, I had a discussion with my girlfriend about the possibility of moving and I was surprised to find she wasn’t too keen on the idea. I always assumed that she was missing city convenience but apparently she doesn’t find it that annoying and prefers the fresh air and space. Plus it would be an expensive pain in the ass to move with a high possibility of ending up somewhere even worse so I’ve scrapped that idea.

I also gave her the full ‘n’ frank version of why Taiwan is getting me down - selfishness, noise, cruelty to animals, useless police, parents taking 7 year old kids to x-rated movies etc. She was - naturally, but disappointingly - defensive and pointed out that if a majority of Taiwanese were putting up with it and I was complaining then it was up to me to change and adapt or get out. Not a nice thing to hear but completely fair enough I suppose.

So I’m going to try and take a compromise position with a ‘Save Llary’s Sanity’ action plan. I’m going to soundproof a smaller bedroom on a lower floor and sleep there. I love my big upstairs bedroom and I will be annoyed not to sleep there any more but it would be impossible to soundproof effectively without pouring in a floating concrete floor. I’m also going to change the wooden gate for an iron gate with a big fuck-off lock so the neighbours opposite can’t come into my house again to neuter my 4 month old puppy with my knowledge (I’m not kidding). In the meantime I’m good friends with another neighbour who also happens to be the community warden so I’m going to try to arrange some kind of resident’s contract about only keeping a maximum of two dogs per household and maintaining certain minimum living standards for them. I really like two of the families who live here and can put up with one other, and the rest can simply fuck off.

I think if I can come back to a peaceful home I can deal with the driving, adogah comments and everything else so I reckon the mafan is worth it. If not, then hey, at least I tried and I can always leave in two years.

Thanks for the support everyone, you’re superer than New Zealand :discodance:

redwagon · March 19, 2007, 8:32am

[quote=“llary”]I also gave her the full ‘n’ frank version of why Taiwan is getting me down - selfishness, noise, cruelty to animals, useless police, parents taking 7 year old kids to x-rated movies etc. She was - naturally, but disappointingly - defensive and pointed out that if a majority of Taiwanese were putting up with it and I was complaining then it was up to me to change and adapt or get out.[/quote]That quote about all progress being the work of unreasonable men usually comes in handy in this argument.

Puppet · March 19, 2007, 9:59am

[quote=“llary”]
Thanks for the support everyone, you’re superer than New Zealand :discodance:[/quote]

I think most, if not all, can say we’ve had crappy adjustment periods. I hope some resolution comes of this soon for you.

Glad to hear you’re sticking around.

Matt

Lord_Lucan · March 19, 2007, 10:38am

It’s quite possible that it is a greater wrench for some of the long-timers to leave than some people who have only been in Taiwan a few years. There has been so much progress from having to go to Tien Mu to pay a fortune for a bottle of American wine and a sliver of processed cheese to what’s on offer in Taipei now. And it really was more fun in the early 90s! Sorry, but the place was so full of optimism and there was a feeling of “we’re Taiwanese, we’ve just won the lottery and we’re going to party!” which rubbed off on, well, me anyway. That is a monstrously simplified thing to say, but even in 1997 the whole place was still ploughing ahead on all three cylinders. And for the last ten years it’s been kind of “oh, that was as good as it was ever going to get. Ho hum.”

The lack of government and general direction is fine when everyone’s making money and the economy is booming, but very noticeable when the economy flattens out. Shame. It is as if someone said “how do we get Taiwanese people to care about politics? I know. Let’s fuck up the economy, then they’ll care by Jove!”

Sadly not. So I can see why people with a few years in Taiwan would go, “to hell with this nothing’s happening here” and bugger off, but if you’ve been there a long time it’s awfully hard to just leave all your mates and shared experience and somewhere you perhaps even reluctantly called “home”. But what can you do? Most of my whingeing and disappointment with Taiwan was that after achieving so much in the late 80s and early 90s for whatever reason it just ground to a halt. The “Asia Pacific Regional Operations Centre” was a brilliant idea! And not difficult to implement! Sadly, the powers that be couldn’t implement a blow-job in a brothel and now we have “Taiwan - I Used To Live There.”

So anyway, is there any hope left? I mean is this it? RIP The New Modern Progressive Taiwan, 1987-1997? I would happily turn the clock back to 1992 and do it all over again. It was brill. I left only for the money, but looking at the latter years now, I don’t honestly know if I’d go back to Taiwan 2006. (Er, when I say “Taiwan” I mean “Taipei” BTW)

Just my very incoherent 2 cents.

This all sounds very “Taiwan-owes-me-a-living”!! Sometimes I feel like Taiwan is a beautiful 20-year old girl that seduced me for eight years with her wily and not-necessarily-always-above-board charms and then as soon as I married her she turned into dowdy old bag and moved into the spare bedroom with her cats! (But she assures me that it was me that turned into a drunken old fart!)

Anyway I was very young at the time and the affected part has cleared up nicely.

Puppet · March 19, 2007, 11:01am

I actually love it here. I have my complaints and I have had problems at work. And the women are confusing the @#)($* out of me so far. And I’ve had the culture shock. Um…what was my point?

Oh yeah. I love being able to take a day trip across the country.
I love being a teacher and actually HAVING some money (a luxury I was not given in the States).
I love this group that talks about everything from betelnut to the Trinity.
I have made friends from all over the world.

The only thing that would make me want to go back home right now is if I seriously persued doing stand up comedy as more than just a fun thing and wanted to make it a career. But that’s not going to be for a few years anyway.

Brendon · March 19, 2007, 1:38pm

Speaking of friend-churn …

I’ve gone from having dozens of friends in my first year here to having exactly three. Partly it’s because of people leaving, and partly it’s because I’m getting more bitter and cantankerous by the day.

Those three have all been here as long as I have, but next year two of them are going home, and I have no idea what the heck I’ll do then. I’m tired of making friends, and in any case I basically hate everyone.

Perhaps my Taiwan-for-life stance will change then.

redwagon · March 19, 2007, 3:04pm

Lord Lucan, you nailed it. Twenty years ago I would have said anything could happen in Taiwan. Now I’m pretty confident in saying that very few of the things that I’d like to see happen here, will.

Huang_Guang_Chen · March 19, 2007, 3:16pm

The same could also be said of Thailand, Laos, you name it, but there’s still folks living well. Indeed, the vast block of my mates n Taiwan are as happy as larks. I’m pretty sure the same could be said of our dear Lord’s Taiwan posse.

HG

M0NSTER · March 19, 2007, 3:46pm

[quote=“Brendon”]Speaking of friend-churn …

I’ve gone from having dozens of friends in my first year here to having exactly three. Partly it’s because of people leaving, and partly it’s because I’m getting more bitter and cantankerous by the day.

Those three have all been here as long as I have, but next year two of them are going home, and I have no idea what the heck I’ll do then. I’m tired of making friends, and in any case I basically hate everyone.

Perhaps my Taiwan-for-life stance will change then.[/quote]

You may not like what I’m about to say…but we think alike. Ha!

The friend churn was inevitable. I came here when I still had some piss and vinegar in my system which turned into resentment and bitterness. People change. Interests change. I’m 29 now and I feel as if I can’t party like a rockstar anymore and quite frankly - I look down on those who are. I’m not a living example of purity…pwahaha…but I do think there’s a time in a persons life where ya need to settle down and become content with what you have and who you are. Thing is - the recycling of foreigners is heavy. So you won’t have many people who stick around or keep the same thoughts/interests in mind. That’s life…and that’s it.*

I count my lucky stars for the peeps back home. I’m damn glad that the emails keep coming and people still wonder when I’m going to return. Because if it weren’t for them, I’d probably be that much further off the deep end than I am now.

This is why I think that although most of the foreigners I’ve met might seem like the friendliest and most generous people over here…I seriously wouldn’t trust many of them for as far as I could throw’em. It’s easy come and easy go for most that pass through here. Watch, Listen and Learn.

bobepine · March 19, 2007, 5:37pm