If Iraq was American Hubris, is Iran European Hubris?

Just curious if all those who insisted that the US face up to the limits of military adventures based on setbacks in Iraq would like to squeal a mea culpa on the limits of negotiation “adventures” with Iran?

[quote] VIENNA: Inspectors for the International Atomic Energy Agency have concluded that Iran appears to have solved most of its technological problems and is now beginning to enrich uranium on a far larger scale than before, according to the agency’s top officials.

The findings may change the calculus of diplomacy in Europe and in Washington, which has aimed to force a suspension of Iran’s enrichment activities in large part to prevent it from learning how to produce weapons-grade material.

In a short-notice inspection of Iran’s main nuclear facility at Natanz on Sunday, conducted in advance of a report to the United Nations Security Council due early next week, the inspectors found that Iranian engineers were already using roughly 1,300 centrifuges and were producing fuel suitable for nuclear reactors, according to diplomats and nuclear experts here. Until recently, the Iranians were having difficulty keeping the delicate centrifuges spinning at the tremendous speeds necessary to make nuclear fuel, and often were running them empty, or not at all.

Now, those roadblocks appear to have been surmounted. “We believe they pretty much have the knowledge about how to enrich,” said Mohamed ElBaradei, the director general of the energy agency, who clashed with the Bush administration four years ago when he declared that there was no evidence that Iraq had resumed its nuclear program. “From now on, it is simply a question of perfecting that knowledge. People will not like to hear it, but that’s a fact.”[/quote]

iht.com/articles/2007/05/15/ … 15iran.php

I found this paragraph particularly telling and not very funny…

[quote]
One senior European diplomat, who declined to speak for attribution, said that Washington would now have to confront the question of whether it wants to keep Iran from producing any nuclear material, or whether it wants to keep it from gaining the ability to build a weapon on short notice. Continued stalemate, the diplomat said, allows Iran to move toward that ability.[/quote]

So now it is OUR problem again? I thought that negotiations were the solution and if only we would try to understand the Iranians and talk to them ala the Europeans that we would not have a problem, but apparently voila! it is OUR problem again. This is precisely why I am glad that the US removed Saddam when we did. All of the European posturing about peace would have resulted in a stronger Saddam and then when push came to shove it would have been OUR problem as usual. Irritating in the extreme.

So the alternate to talking (and Iran has full sanctions on it already), is fighting right?

I’m not against it, but I don’t think the US is up to the task.

No, I am merely stressing that the Europeans always want to talk but when the talks fail, who is left to pick up the pieces. This is precisely why I found the European attitude (the critical ones) regarding the Bush invasion of Iraq to deal with Saddam BEFORE he became an IMMINENT threat so precious. They took the lead on Iran. How are those talks doing? and isn’t it a bit rich that when they do not work out, then of course the ball is back in the U.S.'s court? How typical.

So you still think that even against the wishes of most European countries, that it was a still a good idea to invade Iraq, even with the hindsight that its likely the US will pull out, and what are the chances then that the UN will be picking up the pieces in Iraq after the US government decides to pull out?

Nothing wrong with talking first, and really, what can one do once those talks fail? Its obvious Iran is milking the current situation for all its worth, and of course it doesn’t help that the US is seeking to sell nuclear materials to India, a country that like Iran, has nuclear ambition. So whats the difference then? Democracy?

Why should their wishes have such import? Were they ever going to be the ones to deal with a nuclear Iraq? Let’s see what is happening with a nuclear Iran. Even the senior European diplomat admits that the stalemate benefits Iran’s ILLEGAL efforts. But who is going to take charge? The Europeans? By funding and manning bigger military forces? haha

Also, you are wrong about MOST European countries. MOST European countries supported the US. The ones that did not were Russia, Germany, France, Belgium, Luxembourg and Greece. All the others SUPPORTED the effort except neutrals like Ireland, Sweden, Finland, Austria and Switzerland. So unless you can figure out a new definition for most… how do you get that when the following supported the effort?

UK
Norway
Denmark
Netherlands
Spain
Portugal
Italy
Poland
Czech Republic
Estonia
Latvia
Lithuania
Ukraine
Georgia
Slovakia
Hungary
Romania
Bulgaria
Croatia
Slovenia

I disagree that the US will pull out.

Again, when has the UN ever taken the lead MILITARILY on anything anywhere?

When it comes to Europe, everyone KNOWS that nothing else will happen because it has no military to deal with any such eventuality. It is a neutered continent.

Yes, just as Iraq was so I guess then assuming you adhered to the view that all European nations stated… that Saddam could not be allowed to have nuclear weapons that you will now in hindsight agree with the US stance that he had to be taken out.

If you cannot tell the difference between India and Iran… I guess that is really the European and leftie problem in a nutshell. Who’s to say who’s worse, right? It does not make for much of a moral posture however. So you have shrill condemnation of US “atrocities” and absolute silence or “negotiations” regarding Iranian ones? haha If that were not so sadly pathetic, it might be funny. But no one is laughing.

Why are the two questions equivalent? They are two completely different situations.

Negotiations with Iran was/will never work because the military option never was. Removing Saddam was pointless because he wasn’t going to get any stronger.

So what else is new? Europe these days is made up of ‘post bellum’ societies that think you can stop a theif by saying “stop or I’ll say stop again”. They’ve failed to spend enough to have a credible threat in their military, so what else can they do?

Are they?

So why then have not the Europeans done more to cut off trade with Iran. This was the most recommended solution. Instead, we have most European governments continuing to offer the loan guarantees that are necessary to the trade.

Says who? That was not the finding of the Butler or Duelfer report. You are wrong.

Realize that they need a military option and that the world is held hostage to those who refuse to act sensibly under these circumstances.

[quote]Quote:
So what else is new? Europe these days is made up of ‘post bellum’ societies that think you can stop a theif by saying “stop or I’ll say stop again”. They’ve failed to spend enough to have a credible threat in their military, so what else can they do?

Realize that they need a military option and that the world is held hostage to those who refuse to act sensibly under these circumstances[/quote]

Well…I wouldn’t go holding my breath.

[quote]Quote:
Negotiations with Iran was/will never work because the military option never was.

So why then have not the Europeans done more to cut off trade with Iran. This was the most recommended solution. Instead, we have most European governments continuing to offer the loan guarantees that are necessary to the trade. [/quote]

Because a) they do not seem interested in a real solution because b) they don’t see a real problem - that’s why they are pushing the resolution of the issue back onto the US.

[quote]Quote:
Removing Saddam was pointless because he wasn’t going to get any stronger.

Says who? That was not the finding of the Butler or Duelfer report. You are wrong.
[/quote]

We’ve been here before…we don’t agree as to who was the true threat.

[quote]Quote:
Why are the two questions equivalent? They are two completely different situations.

Are they? [/quote]

What, just because both are on the Axis of Evil? One is a real threat, with real capabilities; one was a wet paper back that is going to be doing a slow sectarian burn for 40 years.

Strange then that this is not what their intelligence or policy pronouncements have stated. They view Iran with nuclear weapons as a very serious threat.

I have the Duelfer and Butler reports to back me up in my statements. Who do you have?

You are wrong that Iraq was not a threat. Prove otherwise. Also, this is even worse. So Iran is a true threat but one that you are not willing to do anything about? How does that make sense? How is that better?

Correct. And given how the “military option” so far has panned out in let’s say Iraq … why should they do more?

I agree with Ty00n that the US is probably not up to the task of strongarming Iran into anything at this point though either.

So let’s see if we will get more than sabre rattling and hot air from accross the Atlantic on this matter in the near future, shall we?

A classic! :bravo:

However … how often do you want to regurriate the mantra of “Yes, I really mistook these piles of paper for hard evidence and enough so to start a war”? I mean … sure, must have been a traumatic event that your vaunted reports panned out a bit hysteric with hindsight and no WMDs found. And I know talking about it helps.

But really … do you think it will do you much good to time and again flaunt what a fool you have been? :smiley:

In tonights news…

Atomic Agency Concludes Iran Is Stepping Up Nuclear Work

"[i]VIENNA, May 14 — Inspectors for the International Atomic Energy Agency have concluded that Iran appears to have solved most of its technological problems and is now beginning to enrich uranium on a far larger scale than before, according to the agency’s top officials.

The findings may change the calculus of diplomacy in Europe and in Washington, which aimed to force a suspension of Iran’s enrichment activities in large part to prevent it from learning how to produce weapons-grade material.

In a short-notice inspection of Iran’s operations in the main nuclear facility at Natanz on Sunday, conducted in advance of a report to the United Nations Security Council due early next week, the inspectors found that Iranian engineers were already using roughly 1,300 centrifuges and were producing fuel suitable for nuclear reactors, according to diplomats and nuclear experts here.[/i]"

While the United Nations Security Council has passed a resolution demanding that Iran suspend all of its nuclear activities, and it has twice imposed sanctions for Tehran’s refusal to do so, some European nations, and particularly Russia, have questioned whether the demand for suspension still makes sense.

"Vice President Cheney, in an interview conducted with Fox News at the end of his trip to the Mideast, said today that Iran appears “to be determined to develop the capacity to enrich uranium in order to produce nuclear weapons.” But he issued no threats, saying simply “they ought to comply with the U.N. resolutions.

Fuel required for nuclear reactors is different from fuel required for weapons. Which one are they producing?

[quote]Elegua wrote:
So what else is new? Europe these days is made up of ‘post bellum’ societies that think you can stop a theif by saying “stop or I’ll say stop again”. They’ve failed to spend enough to have a credible threat in their military, so what else can they do?

Correct. And given how the “military option” so far has panned out in let’s say Iraq … why should they do more?

I agree with Ty00n that the US is probably not up to the task of strongarming Iran into anything at this point though either.

So let’s see if we will get more than sabre rattling and hot air from accross the Atlantic on this matter in the near future, shall we?[/quote]

Before we make a land grab for the moral high ground, i don’t see much success from the Europeans. Let’s review how well the European way has worked in places like…Yugoslavia (are our memories so short?), Sudan…etc… While I won’t claim that Iraq is a success, nor should the military option have been applied in that case; diplomacy without a credible threat is just empty talk. In fact, I would say that European intransigence on taking action (any kind, military or other) and willingness to trade and talk without recourse does much to encourage them.

This is likely true, but politicians drive policy and I’ve seen little from the rhetoric or actions from Europe to say they are serious.

Prove they were a threat. Most of the case for was has been de-bunked. Who said I’m against doing anything about Iran? It’s just hard to negotiate when they can cause us so much pain across the street in Iraq and we’ve got no support from our ‘peaceful’ buddies in Europe.

It is spelled regurgitate…

While no wmds were found, the two reports concluded that Saddam was a credible threat. Why is that not sufficient given that Bush has stated many times that he was going to act BEFORE Saddam became an IMMINENT threat?

Got anything to counter the Duelfer or Butler reports, both of which I have posted here? No. Well then, keep up with the cheap cynicism. So nice to laugh at the actions taken by anyone. Of course, doing nothing is so easy right?

Yet once again… Relevant findings from the Butler Report (UK)

[quote]Iraqi weapons

[b]It would be rash to say now that no evidence of Iraqi weapons of mass destruction programmes will ever be found

Before the war Iraq wanted to get banned weapons, including a nuclear programme

Iraq was developing ballistic missiles with a longer range than allowed [/b]

The war decision

There was “no recent intelligence” to lead people to conclude Iraq was of more immediate concern than other countries, although its history prompted the view there needed to be a threat of force to ensure Saddam Hussein’s compliance

Intelligence only played a “limited” role in determining the legality of the war

No evidence was found that Britain went to war to secure continued access to oil supplies

Tony Blair’s policy to Iraq shifted because of 11 September, not the pace of Iraq’s weapons programmes.

Uranium from Niger

British intelligence on the claim that Iraq had sought uranium from Niger was “credible”. There was not conclusive evidence Iraq actually purchased the material, nor did the government make that claim.[/b]
[/quote]

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3892809.stm

and more important… the Duelfer report…

[quote]Key Findings
Saddam Husayn so dominated the Iraqi Regime that its strategic intent was his alone. He wanted to end sanctions while preserving the capability to reconstitute his weapons of mass destruction (WMD) when sanctions were lifted.
• Saddam totally dominated the Regime’s strategic decision making. He initiated most of the strategic thinking upon which decisions were made, whether in matters of war and peace (such as invading Kuwait), maintaining WMD as a national strategic goal, or on how Iraq was to position itself in the international community. Loyal dissent was discouraged and constructive variations to the implementation of his wishes on strategic issues were rare. Saddam was the Regime in a strategic sense and his intent became Iraq’s strategic policy.
• Saddam’s primary goal from 1991 to 2003 was to have UN sanctions lifted, while maintaining the security of the Regime. He sought to balance the need to cooperate with UN inspections—to gain support for lifting sanctions—with his intention to preserve Iraq’s intellectual capital for WMD with a minimum of foreign intrusiveness and loss of face. Indeed, this remained the goal to the end of the Regime, as the starting of any WMD program, conspicuous or otherwise, risked undoing the progress achieved in eroding sanctions and jeopardizing a political end to the embargo and international monitoring.
• The introduction of the Oil-For-Food program (OFF) in late 1996 was a key turning point for the Regime. OFF rescued Baghdad’s economy from a terminal decline created by sanctions. The Regime quickly came to see that OFF could be corrupted to acquire foreign exchange both to further undermine sanctions and to provide the means to enhance dual-use infrastructure and potential WMD-related development.
• By 2000-2001, Saddam had managed to mitigate many of the effects of sanctions and undermine their international support. Iraq was within striking distance of a de facto end to the sanctions regime, both in terms of oil exports and the trade embargo, by the end of 1999.
Saddam wanted to recreate Iraq’s WMD capability—which was essentially destroyed in 1991—after sanctions were removed and Iraq’s economy stabilized, but probably with a different mix of capabilities to that which previously existed. Saddam aspired to develop a nuclear capability—in an incremental fashion, irrespective of international pressure and the resulting economic risks—but he intended to focus on ballistic missile and tactical chemical warfare (CW) capabilities.
• Iran was the pre-eminent motivator of this policy. All senior level Iraqi officials considered Iran to be Iraq’s principal enemy in the region. The wish to balance Israel and acquire status and influence in the Arab world were also considerations, but secondary.
• Iraq Survey Group (ISG) judges that events in the 1980s and early 1990s shaped Saddam’s belief in the value of WMD. In Saddam’s view, WMD helped to save the Regime multiple times. He believed that during the Iran-Iraq war chemical weapons had halted Iranian ground offensives and that ballistic missile attacks on Tehran had broken its political will. Similarly, during Desert Storm, Saddam believed WMD had deterred Coalition Forces from pressing their attack beyond the goal of freeing Kuwait. WMD had even played a role in crushing the Shi’a revolt in the south following the 1991 ceasefire.
• The former Regime had no formal written strategy or plan for the revival of WMD after sanctions. Neither was there an identifiable group of WMD policy makers or planners separate from Saddam. Instead, his lieutenants understood WMD revival was his goal from their long association with Saddam and his infrequent, but firm, verbal comments and directions to them.[/quote]

lib.umich.edu/govdocs/pdf/duelfer1_b.pdf

Kenneth Pollack also in the Threatening Storm lists quotes by Saddam in that he wished he had invaded Kuwait AFTER he had nuclear weapons. He viewed THIS not the invasion as his primary strategic mistake in the conflict. He believed that he would then have had an unopposed effort to do what he wanted in the region because the US and its allies would have feared to attack lest he attack and destroy the Saudi oilfields. According to Pollack, Saddam was reckless and the threat of an international economic depression and collapse, which would have certainly resulted from the huge spike in oil prices had the 22 percent of world oil from Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and Iraq been removed from the market, would not have deterred him in this effort.

Yet once again… Relevant findings from the Butler Report (UK)

[quote]Iraqi weapons

[b]It would be rash to say now that no evidence of Iraqi weapons of mass destruction programmes will ever be found

Before the war Iraq wanted to get banned weapons, including a nuclear programme

Iraq was developing ballistic missiles with a longer range than allowed [/b]

The war decision

There was “no recent intelligence” to lead people to conclude Iraq was of more immediate concern than other countries, although its history prompted the view there needed to be a threat of force to ensure Saddam Hussein’s compliance

Intelligence only played a “limited” role in determining the legality of the war

No evidence was found that Britain went to war to secure continued access to oil supplies

Tony Blair’s policy to Iraq shifted because of 11 September, not the pace of Iraq’s weapons programmes.

Uranium from Niger

British intelligence on the claim that Iraq had sought uranium from Niger was “credible”. There was not conclusive evidence Iraq actually purchased the material, nor did the government make that claim.[/b]
[/quote]

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3892809.stm

and more important… the Duelfer report…

[quote]Key Findings
Saddam Husayn so dominated the Iraqi Regime that its strategic intent was his alone. He wanted to end sanctions while preserving the capability to reconstitute his weapons of mass destruction (WMD) when sanctions were lifted.
• Saddam totally dominated the Regime’s strategic decision making. He initiated most of the strategic thinking upon which decisions were made, whether in matters of war and peace (such as invading Kuwait), maintaining WMD as a national strategic goal, or on how Iraq was to position itself in the international community. Loyal dissent was discouraged and constructive variations to the implementation of his wishes on strategic issues were rare. Saddam was the Regime in a strategic sense and his intent became Iraq’s strategic policy.
• Saddam’s primary goal from 1991 to 2003 was to have UN sanctions lifted, while maintaining the security of the Regime. He sought to balance the need to cooperate with UN inspections—to gain support for lifting sanctions—with his intention to preserve Iraq’s intellectual capital for WMD with a minimum of foreign intrusiveness and loss of face. Indeed, this remained the goal to the end of the Regime, as the starting of any WMD program, conspicuous or otherwise, risked undoing the progress achieved in eroding sanctions and jeopardizing a political end to the embargo and international monitoring.
• The introduction of the Oil-For-Food program (OFF) in late 1996 was a key turning point for the Regime. OFF rescued Baghdad’s economy from a terminal decline created by sanctions. The Regime quickly came to see that OFF could be corrupted to acquire foreign exchange both to further undermine sanctions and to provide the means to enhance dual-use infrastructure and potential WMD-related development.
• By 2000-2001, Saddam had managed to mitigate many of the effects of sanctions and undermine their international support. Iraq was within striking distance of a de facto end to the sanctions regime, both in terms of oil exports and the trade embargo, by the end of 1999.
Saddam wanted to recreate Iraq’s WMD capability—which was essentially destroyed in 1991—after sanctions were removed and Iraq’s economy stabilized, but probably with a different mix of capabilities to that which previously existed. Saddam aspired to develop a nuclear capability—in an incremental fashion, irrespective of international pressure and the resulting economic risks—but he intended to focus on ballistic missile and tactical chemical warfare (CW) capabilities.
• Iran was the pre-eminent motivator of this policy. All senior level Iraqi officials considered Iran to be Iraq’s principal enemy in the region. The wish to balance Israel and acquire status and influence in the Arab world were also considerations, but secondary.
• Iraq Survey Group (ISG) judges that events in the 1980s and early 1990s shaped Saddam’s belief in the value of WMD. In Saddam’s view, WMD helped to save the Regime multiple times. He believed that during the Iran-Iraq war chemical weapons had halted Iranian ground offensives and that ballistic missile attacks on Tehran had broken its political will. Similarly, during Desert Storm, Saddam believed WMD had deterred Coalition Forces from pressing their attack beyond the goal of freeing Kuwait. WMD had even played a role in crushing the Shi’a revolt in the south following the 1991 ceasefire.
• The former Regime had no formal written strategy or plan for the revival of WMD after sanctions. Neither was there an identifiable group of WMD policy makers or planners separate from Saddam. Instead, his lieutenants understood WMD revival was his goal from their long association with Saddam and his infrequent, but firm, verbal comments and directions to them.[/quote]

lib.umich.edu/govdocs/pdf/duelfer1_b.pdf

Kenneth Pollack also in the Threatening Storm lists quotes by Saddam in that he wished he had invaded Kuwait AFTER he had nuclear weapons. He viewed THIS not the invasion as his primary strategic mistake in the conflict. He believed that he would then have had an unopposed effort to do what he wanted in the region because the US and its allies would have feared to attack lest he attack and destroy the Saudi oilfields. According to Pollack, Saddam was reckless and the threat of an international economic depression and collapse, which would have certainly resulted from the huge spike in oil prices had the 22 percent of world oil from Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and Iraq been removed from the market, would not have deterred him in this effort.[/quote]

a) I’m not holding my breath waiting for evidence to be found. b) There is a difference between intent and ability c) That is some very selective parsing of the report. d) Pollack has long been in support of the war.

Not if that intent leads to eventual ability.

No. They are the KEY findings of the reports as listed on page No. 1. Want to try again?

No. Actually, he has not. He concluded that the invasion of Iraq was “the least worst option.” He works for the liberal Brookings Institute. He concluded that an invasion of Iran would be a mistake in the Persian Puzzle. He was one of the few to correctly predict Saddam’s invasion of Kuwait. Maybe you might want to do some reading up or research on these subjects before offering an “opinion?” Just a thought… or rather, perhaps, this better phrased as a “feeling?”

What’s a hubris ? Isn’t there some rule about posting in English ?

Greatly to the point, I think.

[quote]
Europeans talk all the time about their preference for “soft power” over the brute military force those Neanderthal Americans resort to all the time. What was the soft power available here? Iran’s shaky economy is highly dependent on European credits, trade and technology. Britain asked the European Union to threaten to freeze exports, $18 billion a year of commerce. Iran would have lost its No. 1 trading partner. The European Union refused.

Why was nothing done? The reason is simple. Europe functions quite well as a free-trade zone, but as a political entity it is a farce. It remains a collection of sovereign countries with divergent interests. A freeze of economic relations with Europe would have shaken the Iranian economy to the core. “The Dutch,” reported the Times of London, “said it was important not to risk a breakdown in dialogue.” So much for European solidarity.

Like other vaunted transnational institutions, the European Union is useless as a player in the international arena. Not because its members are venal but because they are sovereign. Their interests are simply not identical.

The problem is most striking at the United Nations, the quintessential transnational institution with a mandate to maintain international peace and order. There was a commonality of interest at its origin – defeating Nazi Germany and imperial Japan. The war ended, but the wartime alliance of Britain, France, the United States, China and Russia proclaimed itself the guardian of postwar “collective security” as the Security Council.

Small problem: Their interests are not collective. They are individual. Take the Iranian nuclear program. Russia and China make it impossible to impose any serious sanctions. China has an interest in maintaining strong relations with a major energy supplier and is not about to jeopardize that over Iranian nukes that are no threat to it whatsoever. Russia sees Iran as a useful proxy in resisting Western attempts to dominate the Persian Gulf.

Ironically, the existence of transnational institutions such as the United Nations makes it harder for collective action against bad actors. In the past, interested parties would simply get together in temporary coalitions to do what they had to do. That is much harder now because they believe such action is illegitimate without the Security Council’s blessing. The result is utterly predictable. Nothing has been done about the Iranian bomb. In fact, the only effective sanctions are those coming unilaterally out of the U.S. Treasury.

Remember the great return to multilateralism – the new emphasis on diplomacy and “working with the allies” – so widely heralded at the beginning of the second Bush administration? To general acclaim, the cowboys had been banished and the grown-ups brought back to town.

What exactly has the new multilateralism brought us? North Korea tested a nuclear device. Iran has accelerated its march to developing the bomb. The pro-Western government in Beirut hangs by a thread. The Darfur genocide continues unabated.

The capture and release of the British hostages illustrate once again the fatuousness of the “international community” and its great institutions. You want your people back? Go to the European Union and get stiffed. Go to the Security Council and get a statement that refuses even to “deplore” this act of piracy. (You settle for a humiliating expression of “grave concern.”) Then turn to the despised Americans. They’ll deal some cards and bail you out.[/quote]

washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co … 01796.html

Plus ca change?

[quote]Germany’s stakes in the Iran crisis
Germany is Iran’s No 1 European trade partner and its booming import-export with Iran will be a net casualty of any UN (or other) sanctions on Iran, compared with the United States, which has practically no economic interests at stake in Iran as a result of 27 years of US sanctions.

Iran is a major market for Germany’s industrial and technological products, just as Germany is an importer of Iranian oil and such goods as rugs; some 35% of Iranian rugs are exported to Germany. According to a recent article in Der Spiegel, “Between 2000 and 2005, German exports to Iran more than doubled. Last year they reached a new record of 4.4 billion euros [US$5.6 billion], or 0.6% of Germany’s total export volume. Manufacturers of machinery and equipment are the main beneficiaries because Iran is using German know-how to develop its economy.”

Another report by the Iran-German Chamber of Commerce indicates that as much as 75% of Iran’s small and medium industries rely on imported goods and technology from Germany. German companies and banks are also involved in projects in Iran’s industrial free zones. [/quote]

atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/HE27Ak01.html