Iraq Police Units: Bad Boys, Bad Boys

I am merely asking if you have PROOF. Your past string of allegations that tends to lead no where and eventually fizzle out has led me to question anything and everything that you post. How’s Gannongate doing by the way? AWOLgate? al Qaqaagate? bodyarmorgate?

If you would spend half the time you do be outraged by real actual tragedies like the 1 million Iraqi women and children who died because of UN, French, Russian and Saddam corruption and the thousands of people that have been killed by the insurgents, then maybe you might get some credibility. You weren’t the one were you that also put up the Koran “harm” site were you? Or was that someone else? Shock of shocks! Koran “harm.” Oh dear. What next?

Proof that he was taken away by gunmen in a police car? I don’t have “proof”, but witnesses and his translator say Vincent was hauled off by gunmen in a police car. Do you know something that the rest of us don’t know. Do you have a credible shred of proof that it wasn’t the police car that witnesses say it was? Please show me how all these people must have been lying and you know better.

Glad you asked. We’re still all curious why the White House bent all the normal rules for the press to allow in a manwhore using a false name. Other legit journalists with years of experience had to go through background checks, but the one guy Scott McClellan could rely upon for a nice “safe” lifeline question turns out to be working for some GOP website.

Sociologists will likely spending years trying to evaluate impact of our chickenhawk-led military. Clearly Bush liked getting Air National Guard pay even if he didn’t show up. Tiny units, yet nobody recognizes him at all – there were huge rewards offered up for anybody with credible information … without takers.

Excellent for you to bring this up! Now that the chronologies have been matched up, it’s fascinating to know that the first unit passed through without putting anybody there to protect the site. (Or do you want to try calling Col. Anderson a liar??) Others passed through as well – nice photos showed the UN seals in place. Only much later did the looters arrive – according to witnesses the main looting happened after the departure of U.S. soldiers from the area. Then the DoD went to the unprecedented step of producing falsely labeled sat photos that purported to show looters earlier on … not realizing that their photos would not jive with the existing maps.

Which one?? Are you talking about the recall of Marine body armor, the lack of ceramic plates, the rigging up of scrap-metal plates by reserve troops, or families of new Marines being asked to pay for extra body armor??

[color=green]MODERATOR NOTE

Fred and MFGR: So far so good here: Fred asked about some of the various “gates”, and MFGR responded. But I just wanted to throw in a quick “preemptive” request that if you would like to continue your discussion on any of these gates in more depth, please do remember to head over and continue discussion of each gate in the thread that is most relevant to that gate (use your judgment – I suspect there are several threads that could be used for some of the gates mentioned above :wink: ).

Cheers,
H[/color]

One final question for MFGR and then I will cease and desist Hobbes. How come if all these terrible things have happened, no one has been prosecuted? No one is going to jail? No one has lost their job? BECAUSE said Fred, no one broke the law AND/OR the actuality of the event did not meet the hype. Surprise. Surprise. Surprise. Now, compare this with the ongoing list of heads to fall at the UN. Amazing to me is that so many people talk about penny-ante crap regarding Bush administration officials that like Halliburton is all proved false or highly exaggerated. Then, however, when it comes to the collosal corruption and abuse at the UN that easily dwarfs any of this other two-bit investigatory crap, silence. Nothing but silence silence silence silence and more silence. And if MFGR is going to be silent, how am I going to get any more quips for soirees. I will soon lose all favor with toute Taipei and will be relegated to typing away on Forumosa on the many lonely nights when I have no one to see and no where to go… er. … um… Hey, MFGR, hurry up with those MFGRisms will you?!

With such an unbroken string of clear analysis and insight into the corrupt workings of the Bush administration in my past postings, I perhaps can see why Fred is so afraid to discuss the actual issue of the infiltrated Iraqi police. He might as well waste time questioning my assertion that oranges are normally orange in color. :wink:

Wouldn’t that cause some serious problems for any withdrawal strategy if today’s Iraqi police (likely to, over time, be promoted into leadership positions over newer recruits) were to turn out to be primarily working for groups of insurgents and other trouble-makers? The idea that we’re creating police units that are rotten to their cores seems contrary to the possibility of a workable exit strategy.

Excellent question! The massively infiltrated Iraqi police might have a hard time arresting or investigating their own people. Don’t you think?

Betcha dollars to doughnuts that no Iraqi police are going to jail over Vincent’s killing.

I suppose you wouldn’t think the murder of an American citizen would matter too much, but it matters a bit to the rest of us who give a damn about our countrymen. Sorry to hear you think murder shouldn’t break the law.

Again, I think the death of Mr. Vincent is not “two-bit investigatory crap.” The man died in the line of his work, which was to try to collect and convey the sort of information that the rest of us sorely need to evaluate what is going on in Iraq.

I always love it when you squirm like this MFGR, but it is so patently obvious to be amusing. Now, you know full well I am referring to all your past litanies of endless complaints and allegations not what happened to Mr. Vincent though like the previous endless litanies, I have very little doubt that when the truth is revealed, it will not be exactly in the same form as your originally charged allegations. Dollars to donuts? Is that new? Sounds used though. Got anything better?

Why would you want us to go off topic? I took your questions seriously, particularly because they fall into a long line of statements in which you have treated American lives in a cavalier manner.

Information regarding Vincent being hauled away in a police car has already been provided. Information regarding the infiltration of the Iraqi police by Shi’ite militants has already been provided. Do you have something new to add to this discussion??

Do you have proof that the Iraqi police killed Mr. Vincent and as to disregard for American service men and women, you are the one after all that referred to their lives as what was it? peanuts? shocking.

I may have said that their lives are far too valuable to be used by the GOP like toy soldiers. Regarding Vincent, the burden of proof has shifted under your feet already. If you’re arguing that Vincent was not taken away in a police car, then please provide some facts.

Perhaps that’s what the GOP elephant has been chomping its way through. What are we up to? 1800+ dead Americans and something like 15,000 wounded, many amputees, brain damaged, etc. from the IEDs. I ask that the GOP elephant stop chewing up our troops as if they were peanuts.

I entirely agree. The GOP leadership’s callous disregard for American lives and American security has reached new lows. The top levels of the Republican party could only stoop lower if they disclosed our intelligence officers to the enemy just for sleazy partisan gain. :noway:

You made the allegation that the Iraqi police killed Vincent. It is up to you to prove it and stop referring to the deaths of our soldiers as peanuts. Disgusting.

In New York City, people have brought former police cars from auctions and restored them to look in every way and fashion like real police cars. Getting police uniforms and clothing is not too difficult either. Historically there is a good handful of people who have been killed by fake cops. Many of these fake cops accept money on the spot for whoever they pull over. Its supposedly lucrative. As a result cop cars usually greet each other over radio, and when one doesn’t do so properly, that police car is chased down and inspected.

Maybe something similar happened in Iraq. Just because people saw a white vehicle commonly used by police, its far from actually being a real authentic in service police vehicle.

Fred – Let’s look at my post starting this thread:

Gunmen driving a police car. Do you have any information that he was not taken away by gunmen in a police car? There is no allegation that he was hauled away in a non-descript white car, nor is there any indication that there is a significant number of police-car hobbyists in Iraq. If you’ve got any information showing that it was not gunmen in a police car, then please provide it. Please prove it. Proof, please. Chop-chop.

However, Mr. Vincent himself wrote up some articles about how the Iraqi police were infiltrated with militants, etc. Other people have said that the Iraqi police are infiltrated.

Thanks for playing … but it looks like you’ll need to provide us with something to contradict the witnesses saying he was hauled away by gunmen in a police car.

So if you have no proof why not just say so and you were the one I assume who gave the thread the title: Iraqi cops, bad bad boys no? So that would seem to suggest that you think that the Iraqi police were behind this. Fine. Speculate away but do you have any proof? Do you ever have any proof? PROOF it’s what’s for breakfast and you’re still eating gritz.

So, you don’t have any facts to contradict the evidence collected so far. Please go do some research to back up your fanciful and bizarre allegations. Chop-chop!

Thanks for playing.

Weak weak weak. You are the one who started this thread. You gave it the title. You made the assertion. I want to know if you have any proof. Obviously, you don’t so chop, chop yourself. This kind of approach though isn’t going to earn you any points or respect, but then… typical…

MFGR wrote:

[quote]
Perhaps that’s what the GOP elephant has been chomping its way through. What are we up to? 1800+ dead Americans and something like 15,000 wounded, [/quote]

The DoD just released some interesting numbers, and Powerlineblog.com (yes yes, that conservative rag) has a good take on them:

Numbers + press = whatever you want them to. Try this on for some context:

powerlineblog.com/

[quote]Some Thoughts on Casualties in Times of War and Peace

It is universally acknowledged that public support for the Iraq war is eroding. Some of the polls supporting this claim are faulty because they are based on obviously misleading internal data, but the basic point cannot be denied: many Americans, possibly even a majority, have turned against the war.

This should hardly be a surprise. On the contrary, how could it be otherwise? News reporting on the war consists almost entirely of itemizing casualties. Headlines say: “Two Marines killed by roadside bomb.” Rarely do the accompanying stories–let alone the headlines that are all that most people read–explain where the Marines were going, or why; what strategic objective they and their comrades were pursuing, and how successful they were in achieving it; or how many terrorists were also killed. For Americans who do not seek out alternative news sources like this one, the war in Iraq is little but a succession of American casualties. The wonder is that so many Americans do, nevertheless, support it.

The sins of the news media in reporting on Iraq are mainly sins of omission. Not only do news outlets generally fail to report the progress that is being made, and often fail to put military operations into any kind of tactical or strategic perspective, they assiduously avoid talking about the overarching strategic reason for our involvement there: the Bush administration’s conviction that the only way to solve the problem of Islamic terrorism, long term, is to help liberate the Arab countries so that their peoples’ energies will be channelled into the peaceful pursuits of free enterprise and democracy, rather than into bizarre ideologies and terrorism. Partly this omission is due to laziness or incomprehension, but I think it is mostly attributable to the fact that if the media acknowledged that reforming the Arab world, in order to drain the terrorist swamp, has always been the principal purpose of the Iraq war, it would take the sting out of their “No large stockpiles of WMDs!” theme.

(jds note: Oh how that rings true!)

One wonders how past wars could have been fought if news reporting had consisted almost entirely of a recitation of casualties. The D-Day invasion was one of the greatest organizational feats ever achieved by human beings, and one of the most successful. But what if the only news Americans had gotten about the invasion was that 2,500 allied soldiers died that day, with no discussion of whether the invasion was a success or a failure, and no acknowledgement of the huge strategic stakes that were involved? Or what if such news coverage had continued, day by day, through the entire Battle of Normandy, with Americans having no idea whether the battle was being won or lost, but knowing only that 54,000 Allied troops had been killed by the Germans?[/quote]

MFGR, you always talk about people being bamboozelled. Well, there is. People are being swindled, by a lazy, biased press who forgot their job was to report the news and not make it. Post Watergate every reporter felt he or she had to top that scoop and bring somebody in power down.

Now the ante is up to a nation. I imagine the day is not far away when terrorist sillybillies know certain newsreporters by name, for helping their cause more than any bomb or bullet could.

Tigerman and myself have frequently pointed out that we supported the invasion of Iraq largely because of the need to reform the Middle East. Tigerman has cited endless numbers of speeches where Bush outlined these goals, but it all comes down to wmds and only wmds for these minds that refuse to read what the president has stated directly. It is pointless to continue to supply this information because so many on the left just refuse to accept that this is not about being “bamboozled.” I have pointed out from the beginning that I supported the war and that wmds was only 20 percent of my reason for doing so. I have read and had read enough on the subject to bring me to this conclusion BEFORE we even invaded and I mentioned this on this forum. So where did I get all the information to make my decision? Do I have a secret store of information or special glasses that allow me to read things in the newspapers that others cannot. Let’s face it, this anti-Bush hysteria has become so entangled in the war in Iraq that the supporters of the Left actually want us to lose this war and are routing for every set back just so that it will cause Bush to suffer and to me that is demented and sick.

jdsmith – You’re asking for one hell of a diversion away from the topic of Vincent’s death and the infiltration of the Iraqi police by militant groups. But I’ll indulge you for a moment.

Handwringing and whining about how the media “hates us conservatives” completely disregards the actual very positive coverage throughout papers across the spectrum. It disregards the large number of newspapers with editorial policies that support the president, that endorsed him (and Republican candidates) in elections over the past many decades. It ignores that Republicans take up a huge amount of the radio airwaves with talk shows and with an entire Fox “News” network in which you can get whatever you want.

If you look at American opinion, it has only lately finally made some measureable shifts – perhaps the straw that broke the camel’s back was the Downing Street memos. Shifts in public opinion are not overnight things, but I sincerely doubt that it’s just itemizing of casualties that’s the problem. Casualties in wartime are not really a problem for Americans unless we think they’re unnecessary or unjustified casualties.

Did Bush make a good case for the war? Well, to be fair to the guy (seeing as how we Americans were hanging on his every word in the lead-up to the Iraq War), he ran with the WMD argument, the one that could be most directly tied to the safety of the American people.

People soaked that in and believed him, absorbed in all sorts of evidence that later on turned out not to be so. We heard all about secret meetings in the Czech Republic with a 9-11 terrorist, yellowcake in Niger, a “terrorist training camp” with a mockup of an airliner to be used by hijackers, “mobile WMD labs” in trailers, and so on. One by one, these fell apart. The whole WMD thing fell apart. Now powerline wants to tell us that the war wasn’t sold to us on the basis of WMDs and re-write history, but we’re not buying into it because we were there. A lot of people put their trust into the president on what, to most of us, is about as serious a decision as a president can make. Is the lesson on this that the press should just shut up and not let American people make up their own minds about things, or is the lesson that the president should: 1) trust the American people a bit more; 2) be more careful about getting into wars.

Over time, we also can see that other things ain’t adding up. How is it that if the war was all about WMDs, we didn’t have anywhere near enough troops to secure the WMD sites. Why weren’t we securing those sites? Why were we getting cute remarks from Rumsfeld about the looting and disorder in the streets? Why did we send troops straight to the Oil Ministry but skip the WMD sites? (If Powell of ‘Powell Doctrine’ fame is there, why are they utterly disregarding him? …)

And then there’s the “oil” thing. President Bush fills up his cabinet with a bunch of oil-industry insiders, many of whom have signed off on Bill Kristol’s Project for a New American Century manifestos. Talk about a great way to feed right into the worst suspicions of folks. It would be like putting Michael Jackson in charge of ensuring America’s kids don’t have hernias. And the suspicions aren’t just gradually coming out from the U.S. side … of course the Iraqis and all their neighbors aren’t exactly too cool with this either. And the Bush administration didn’t exactly bend over backwards to ensure the appearance of propriety was preserved with regards to Halliburton – it’s not just “media” when you get Republican stallwart companies like Raytheon aghast.

Over time, those of us who care about the “hearts and minds” part of the war weren’t terribly crazy about seeing people put into indefinite detentions, seeing people shipped out for torture in places like Syria, Egypt and others. Abu Ghraib was a disaster, but our reaction was far from comprehensive and Gen. Sanchez was caught out lying to Congress about what guidelines were in place and what he’d approved. Not punished, of course. We saw the White House counsel’s opinion in which he put the President above the law. We’re a free nation that respects the rights of people – that’s a strength, not a weakness, in the overall fight against deluded terrorists.

In the background, we also see consistent accounts from within the EPA and various other non-partisan government departments in which science is overruled in favor of what’s good for certain industries near and dear to the cabinet. Basic economic and accounting concepts are flipped upside down to make room for tax cuts that most benefit the top 1% wealthy. If Bush wants credibility with the press or with the public, he’s got a heck of a way of showing it. It’s drips and drops here and there, but like any pointillist painting a picture emerges from the drops that that the average American is perfectly capable of pulling together. If you’re a New Yorker, the broken promises of 9-11 recovery money are particularly clear – especially when you start seeing states like Idaho getting “port security” funds.

We also see a president who wants “yes” men – because your ass gets canned or sidelined mighty fast if you’re not “on message.” This ain’t just the media – this is general after general, and guys like Powell, O’Neill, Clarke and others whose only crime was not being “on message” when the administration was about to do yet another boneheaded thing. The Bush administration has also not shyed away from using the press to smear these guys.

So, if powerline wants to re-write history they can do that. However, the American people have gone through a long process of reviewing and listening and thinking. Bush has credibility problems, and he hasn’t done a lot to try to fix things up. I think a good view into the mind of the normal American is Jay Leno – a Republican who makes brilliant political jokes that resonate well with people who prefer to live life as common-sense, non-partisan Americans.

But here again you ignore all the many statements that Tigerman provided regarding what Bush actually said and there was a hell of a lot about reforming the Middle East and not just wmds. Why do you refuse to accept this? Tigerman has cited these speeches over and over and over and over again.

Sorry but you are wrong. The president said the British have learned and that was the truth and the British have not backed down on that claim. Why not? Also the Czech authorities have also not backed down on their claims of the meeting. It could not be verified by the CIA but the Czech authorities still say this is what happened.

What do you mean? Al Qaqaa again? But the story was not that all these explosives disappeared. Only some of them were looted. Powell, Powell, Powell. Is he the only one that is allowed to have theories?

Name all the Cabinet officials that are “oil-industry” insiders and explain just what it is that they are controlling. Do we now or have we ever controlled Iraqi oil? Are American companies in any way involved in this right now? to what degree? How have they benefited. This is just lazy leftist tripe. You keep repeating it so often that you have come to believe it yourself but the facts do not bear this out or give them to us.

Abu Ghraib was a pr nightmare but why focus only on this to the detriment of all the other good things that we have done in Iraq. Remember that it is the insurgents who are killing civilians by deliberately targeting them. They have no future in Iraq and things are increasingly turning our way. Why don’t you mention the fact that the hellhole of Sadr City had only one car bomb this whole year?

Try having an “independent” message at any company or government organization. Guess what? This is standard policy. I wish Bush would shitcan a lot more of these state dept and CIA officials who are so clearly trying to sabotage his policies and efforts because they “know” better.

I do not think that anyone is rewriting history. I think that we are seeing someone try to write history from a different perspective and I do not think that anyone can doubt that the media has been very hostile to Bush and his war in Iraq. Otherwise, how could this be reported as a quagmire from the very first day.