My goal is to learn Mandarin to be able to live in Taiwan, perhaps in the long term. I do not think the environment, politics, culture, mindset, outlook, etc. of the Mainland would suit me, other than to do business with.
There are lots of materials and Youtube videos related to HSK Mandarin and its syllabus but less related to the Taiwanese counterpart, TOCFL.
Am I better off learning Traditional Chinese under TOCFL right off the bat, or is HSK Mandarin OK? Would someone who gains fluency in Simplified Chinese be able to survive in a Traditional Chinese environment?
to be clear, I am quite ignorant and not fluent. but it seems easier to learn traditional then go simplified rather than the other wayaround. Of course I am bias as most people I know learned traditional and can get by reading simplified, slightly less so the other way around. But I am only saying this as a person living day to day in the country of Taiwan. if this is for international business, like in China, your certification might be better served under their language testing guidelines.
If Taiwan is part if your life, I personally suggest learning the alphabet properly (can learn pinyin too). it makes typing easier for fools hehe. can always learn radicals after for speed typing.
A simple solution to your problem is to focus on actual linguistic proficiency and not the godawful and completely pointless for the real world HSK and TOCFL tests, which do nothing to test your actual linguistic capacity. Those tests instead focus on your ability to explain grammar and pick from a list of words that mean exactly the same thing, which word is the best for the sentence. That has little to do with an ability to use the language.
HSK leveled texts are actually kind of good as a basis for what you can use for learning, but any program worth using allows you to switch between simplified and traditional characters. If you’re going to live in Taiwan, use traditional characters. This isn’t China.
Note I said “leveled texts” and not “test prep materials”. There’s no real reason to “prep” for the HSK unless you plan on taking the HSK so you can get a job in China. Otherwise there is also no reason to take the HSK, except to say that you did. As I’ve said elsewhere on this forum, ACTFL’s OPI (oral proficiency interview) and WPT (written proficiency test) will give you a much more solid idea of where you are and what you need to work on to gain actual competency in a language.
I use Chairman’s Bao and know that for me, an HSK 4 text is going to have virtually no new vocabulary (maybe location names or technical terms), HSK 5 will be higher up in the “new words” category, but I can probably figure them out from context, and HSK 6 and 6+ will require the use of Pleco.
But I am using the HSK levels as a difficulty gauge based on where I know my Chinese is. Good leveled readers base their leveling on numbers of words in the text, numbers of words beyond what can be reasonably expected for that level, etc. Colors, Greek letters, or names of Star Wars characters could all be swapped out for the HSK levels and it would make no difference. Because learning any language is about i+1, not some arbitrary test invented by two national governments that have never consulted with a linguist in their lives.
If your goal is to get around Taiwan and survive then traditional Mandarin should be your focus. With some Hokklo/Hokkien thrown in for good measure.
I knew someone that lived in China for 15 years and still can’t say hello in Mandarin.
I’ve never had any issue speaking traditional Mandarin in Hong Kong, Singapore, or Malaysia. Or on any flights with Taiwanese, Japanese, or Chinese stewardesses. In fact most were grateful they didn’t have to speak English.
As for going backwards from traditional to simplified you’ll find that can be both easy and difficult. Those that grew up learning simplified struggle to level up to traditional. Those that learned traditional seem to have little problem with switching to simplified.
I first came to Taiwan with 0 Chinese, then went back to Australia and had classes with a mainland northern Chinese teacher (simplified) then moved back to Taiwan.
For me reading traditional Chinese is easier than reading simplified (simplified reuses the same character but with different meanings much more than traditional) but much more difficult to hand write. However it’s 2022 and handwriting Chinese isn’t super necessary for most people.
If you are taking lessons outside of Taiwan finding a class that teaches traditional characters might be difficult. You should also try and find an open minded teacher. My teacher was from Northern China but he knew I began learning in Taiwan and I had classmates with Malaysian and other backgrounds. My teacher was quite open to the vocabulary and pronunciation differences and I think this will be more important to you. Not unlike English (and other widely spoken languages), there are quite a few vocabulary differences that might surprise you if you haven’t learnt them before.
I would recommend learning to type using the mainland Chinese Hanyu Pinyin system (but set the keyboard to traditional characters) as this js easy to learn if you speak a language that uses the latin alphabet. The Taiwanese equivalent is more difficult but many people learn this as well. Each to their own
I started learning with Simplified Chinese before moving on to Traditional Chinese. It’s not been a problem for me so far. The thing is if you want to live in Taiwan, learning Simplified Chinese first is an unnecessary first step. Maybe you can use the HSK materials for listening comprehension?
There is no such thing as speaking traditional mandarin. There are traditional and simplified characters
I learned Chinese in China. It’s roughly the same. You will have to learn some different vocabulary and adjust accents, but that’s the same as someone learning English in the US and moving to the uk
Simplified to traditional is a fucking breeze. You will pick it up in a month just from reading articles. You can nearly work out what the character is from context
Good luck with that. The differences are quite noticeable. That’s why when Chinese tourists were coming to Taiwan they were complaining about the language barrier.
As for personal experience I’ve taught kids that came from China and they struggled with trying to adapt to Traditional Mandarin. Speaking comprehension and writing. To be fair they had spent more time learning simplified Mandarin before being exposed to traditional. And that was the language mostly spoken at home.
Also from personal experience of dropping those that had grown up learning traditional Mandarin into the simplified system there were few if any issues.
The real challenge is getting to Business Mandarin levels. That’s the language used from Malaysia through to China if you want to run businesses. And as most kids will never get to that level, well a large chunk of Taiwanese kids will struggle to pass their Mandarin classes anyway, then debate is kind of pointless. It’s like Apple changing their chargers to USB C but not providing the chargers for the charge cables.
No they aren’t, it’s the same as American English and British English. Taiwanese and Chinese don’t have any problems communicating, because it’s the same language.
Chinese tourists don’t have any problem communicating. Maybe if you are from the countryside, but anyone with a high school education is fine. Would be the same with accents in English
Chinese grew up watching Taiwanese dramas and listening to Taiwanese music, but apparently they can’t understand.
I don’t know a single Chinese person with a university education that can’t read traditional characters. They are still everywhere in China and for years was what was what was used in ktv
Where does this obsession with HSK exams come from? Do Chinese corporations employing foreigners require certain levels for certain roles or something? In Taiwan the qualification may as well not exist, I’ve never heard anyone even mention it, other than foreigners that is.
It’s the most known test for studying Chinese. Generally it will be what is used as a Chinese language proficiency globally. For example if you wanted to work for government agencies or get on Graduate school programs
It’s not really recognized in Taiwan, but it still is in some places.
It doesn’t hurt to do the hsk. It’s a decent exam and there are heaps of good materials available, compared to the Taiwan exam. It’s good to have if you plan to work outside Taiwan
In the beginning I just needed something to work towards and the hsk provided that. So much of Chinese is memorizing characters, grammar and rote learning, and the hsk is a good framework for that.
I think the HSK or similar is a good foundation for getting real mandarin fluency. You don’t have to do it, but it helps.
To say it’s a disadvantage in Taiwan is silly. Would be like saying studying for IELTS would be bad for living in the US. It’s the same language with some regional differences
This is true. They usually say it’s really easy (though writing traditional characters is a different story).
The only Chinese person I know who can’t read traditional character is from Paris and grew up speaking French, and I think she just doesn’t want to make an effort.
Only if you take the boring approach to language learning. Leveled reader chapter books exist starting at 150 unique characters and are far more interesting and meaningful than memorizing grammar and characters out of context. A few quality TPRS videos from YouTube and you can jump right into actual language use.
I had one year of quality CI instruction where there was no explicit grammar instruction and I was actively using the language and knew how to use it. We learned the characters as we went. And then there was the two years where we were given grammar explanations and memorized characters accompanying one single dialogue, never seeing them in any other context. I could have easily passed HSK 3 at that point, but I couldn’t remember how to actually speak or use Chinese as I could after year one. Chinese doesn’t have to be rote memorization unless you decide that’s the path you want to take.
I encourage people to get a good foundation by actually exposing themselves to the language in a meaningful way, through stories, songs, podcasts, etc. You’re far less likely to give up when you are actively using the language than when you’re chasing this far away “once I just know all the grammar and vocabulary, everything will magically come together and I’ll be able to use the language” goal. That goal is only going to “eventually be reached” when someone says “figure out how to understand this text. Ok now use the words in it to talk about it. Ok, here’s another text”. Or you can just start from that point and not waste the time at the beginning.
I dont disagree with anything you said. Thats basically how I learned Chinese post HSK.
But HSK at least gave me some structure. Was a lot better than the shit level of education was getting in the University classes in China and I liked having a goal to work towards(found it motivating).
I do think, however, that you do need to rote learn a few thousand characters if you want to get anywhere with Chinese as a foundation. Other people might have different experiences.
I loved memorizing the characters and making the flash cards though. Found the whole process quite relaxing and mechanical. Just totally in a flow state for hours. I think people have their own styles of learning that clicks with them
When I lived in Taiwan before, I was one of those obnoxious foreigners who didn’t bother to learn a word of Chinese. Then when I moved back to London, I started learning Chinese using simplified characters based on the HSK tests. I generally haven’t had any problems adjusting to traditional characters in Taiwan, which are often very similar to their traditional counterparts and can usually be inferred from context (because most of the characters around them tend to be the same in both systems). Occasionally, I find out that a word I learnt in London (e.g. bicycle - zi xing che in the HSK/China system) is different in Taiwan (jiao ta che), but this also isn’t a big deal.
Because HSK is more internationally recognised, I want to continue working towards the HSK tests and, so, this will be my focus. But while I’m in Taiwan, I’ll continue trying to memorise the traditional characters, or at least get used to recognising them by sight (i.e. not in the context of whole sentences), and the alternative words used here. I think it’s pretty minor to juggle the two.
