Is it so bad to be called a 'waiguoren'?

[hoedad]

[quote=“mofangongren”]Once I was at the Grand Hotel for a meeting and went up to one of the desks there to find out the room that had been reserved. The hotel employee at the desk didn’t know and phoned someone else, referring to me as a “laowai” throughout the phone conversation.

I hope I wasn’t being too thin-skinned on this, but I told her then and there that it was fine to call me a any number of guest/customer/visitor etc. names but that it was hardly necessary for the purposes of her phone call to refer to me throughout as a “laowai.” She didn’t seem to give a shit, so I called her manager later to complain. Of course, this is the Grand Hotel we’re talking about so probably calling people “laowai” is in their training manual.[/quote]

I wouldn’t read too much into it. Her referring to you as a laowai may have helped the other person narrow down the possibilities of what room you were looking for. It’s no big deal.

[TomHill]

When I am called Waiguoren it throws me a little. I live here, goddamn it, tourists are foreigners, im just a big nosed whitey. I live my life thinking about my job, wife, religion, art, death etc. I dont think about being foreign. So when someone points it out I wonder [color=violet]why[/color] they have to point it out. My nephew learned pretty fast that its not polite to call me a foreigner. Ugly, sure. But ‘foreign’ has some ring of racism around it. But it helps me to think about how I describe others. Bob wrote once, “a black man touched my penis.” how funny if later he added, oh yeah and he onlt had one arm. No offence to bob, just a colourful example. (I crack myself up)

[color=red]We should see passed the colour of skin, and look at the idiot within! [/color]

[system]

Yeah, I don’t remember ever calling anybody a “foreigner” when I was living back home. In English the word “foreigner” has vaguely racist overtones. It smacks of xenophobia. We just don’t use it. We say, “that Chinese guy over there” or “that crazy Iranian dude at the supermarket”, but I don’t recall anybody ever talking about “that foreigner”. We’re usually more specific.

[Vannyel]

@Peking Spring

Yeah, I don’t remember ever calling anybody a “foreigner” when I was living back home. In English the word “foreigner” has vaguely racist overtones. It smacks of xenophobia. We just don’t use it. We say, “that Chinese guy over there” or “that crazy Iranian dude at the supermarket”, but I don’t recall anybody ever talking about “that foreigner”. We’re usually more specific.

Why does it have racist overtones??? Because your culture as attached those overtones to it. Sorry but maybe Asians don’t attach racist overtones.
As I said earlier, I don’t think PC has quite caught on here yet.

As for being a called a foreigner, well that’s basically what we are. Only naturalized citizens should feel compelled to argue this point.

[Tomas]

@TomHill

So when someone points it out I wonder [color=violet]why[/color] they have to point it out.

They have to point it out because they are uneducated, and in many cases, idiots.

I don’t mind being referred to as a “waiguo keren” (foreign customer) or the like in a situation where it clarifies my identity. What I hate is the rednecks who find it necessary to explain to their children that the guy who looks different from daddy is a “waiguoren.” “He’s a waiguoren, son.” The kid grows up thinking people who don’t look like daddy or one of the uncles are mysterious, strange creatures, to be observed but not understood. I’ve encountered only a few moms and dads here who say something like “He’s not Taiwanese. He probably came from a Western country.” One of the damning characteristics of this society is the fact that most Taiwanese people are unwilling to humanize a person from outside their own tribe.

I don’t require people to acknowledge me. I prefer that they ignore me if we’re not engaging in some business transaction or meeting on some social ocassion.

I have a strong distate for locals who find it necessary to observe what the waiguoren is doing at the moment, and make some foolish comment about how my behavior is somehow representative of all non-Taiwanese. “Look, the waiguoren is having a beer with his dinner. Those waiguoren drink beer like it’s water.”

Even worse are the ignorant comments aimed at my girlfriend. “She’s with a waiguoren. She’s one of those Western wanna-bes.” “That poor girl. She’s going to be so stretched out after making love with a waiguoren that no Taiwanese man will ever be able to satisfy her.”

If you read Mandarin, take a look at some of the BBS discussions going on at some of the top universities here. In case you weren’t aware of it, all of the media stereotypes about foreigners are alive and well among Taiwan’s top young minds. We’re here only for money and sex; we’re all unfaithful to our spouses; most of us do drugs; if we manage to learn to speak Mandarin, we speak it with atrocious accents; we can’t get jobs back home; we’ve got massive sexual organs; we’re here to use and then leave the poor women who fall in love with us; we spend all of our spare time in pubs, where and untold number of horrible things occur; we’re incapable of understanding local culture. The list goes on.

From a business standpoint, this country is missing out on all sorts of opportunities because people are stupid enough to buy into media and society perpetuated stereotypes. Time and again, I’ve witnessed Taiwanese companies blow a chance at a profitable deal with a foreign client because the managers involved make no effort to treat foreign clients as equals. They are “waiguoren,” good only for the money that can be made off of them, mysterious and exotic, “not like us.” I used to be a booster for Taiwanese businessness. No more. I’ve seen too much garbage, and in too high a percentage, to have much faith in Taiwanese businessness anymore. The sad truth is that there are more shysters per capita here than in any country I’ve done business in, save mainland China.

I have lived here for five years. Those of you who know me know that I speak and read fluent Mandarin, that I’ve maintained a strong interest in understanding what I experience and observe here, and that I’ve been deeply involved in business and social interactions with Taiwanese people. I’ve learned quite a bit, and have much more to learn still.

What you may not know is that shortly after I arrived here, and for roughly four years after that time, I was a huge fan of Taiwanese culture and society. While I’m still a fan of Taiwanese culture on an intellectual level and I appreciate a number of Taiwanese people on an individual basis, I’m no longer a fan of Taiwanese society. I may reach a different conclusion at some point in the future, but living here this long, among such a large percentage of ignorant, provincial people, has broken down my enthusiasm for this society. If my experience was that there were just a few bad apples in the bunch, I’d gladly maintain my former positive stance on Taiwan society. The problem, unfortunately, is not that there are a few bad apples. The problem is in fact with most of the bunch.

Taiwan society doesn’t have to change for me, and I know plenty of Taiwanese people on an individual basis whom I enjoy and appreciate. I’m saying that as a whole, if Taiwanese society wants to save itself, it had better figure out a way to start thinking of non-Taiwanese people as human beings, not as mysterious animals that can be observed, commented on, and marginalized, but never understood. Otherwise, I think this little island country hasn’t got much chance at a bright future.

[yangdemei]

Tomas, cheers. You have succinctly stated something I have been trying to come to terms with for ages.

[redwagon]

Great post Tomas, though I have to say this description does fit an alarmingly large number of the foreigners I’ve met over the years…[quote=“Tomas”]We’re here only for money and sex; we’re all unfaithful to our spouses; most of us do drugs; if we manage to learn to speak Mandarin, we speak it with atrocious accents; we can’t get jobs back home; we’ve got massive sexual organs; we’re here to use and then leave the poor women who fall in love with us; we spend all of our spare time in pubs, where and untold number of horrible things occur; we’re incapable of understanding local culture.[/quote]Although the part about massive sex organs is true only in the minds of said foreigners , except for yours truly of course.

[Yellow_Cartman]

@Vannyel

[quote=“AndyO”]Coincidentally I was just in Yonghe waiting for a bus and these two little ten year old bastards kept running by me and screaming “lao wai lao wai! Fuck you!” After about the fifth time they ran past me, I had to use every ounce of energy not to grab them and drag them into the store they were hanging out in and demand to see their parents. Ok, lao wai, I understand, but…damn, you have to have thick skin to survive here sometimes. (I guess this is where Vannyel tells me to go home) Cheers mate.

Now why would I do that Andy0…you are home…next time just grab the little bastards and take them into the store.
Of course what do you expect hanging out in Yonghe…
But seriously, PC hasn’t exactly taken root in most of Asia.[/quote]

Eh? :eh: I live in Yong He. Is it that bad here?

[Yellow_Cartman]

Some one should sticky Tomas’ post. It’s a perfect description of Taiwan today.

[Vannyel]

We’re here only for money and sex; we’re all unfaithful to our spouses; most of us do drugs; if we manage to learn to speak Mandarin, we speak it with atrocious accents; we can’t get jobs back home; we’re here to use and then leave the poor women who fall in love with us; we spend all of our spare time in pubs, where and untold number of horrible things occur; we’re incapable of understanding local culture

You have just described at 50 percent of the foreigners I have met in Taiwan…so the stereotype is wrong only 50 percent of the time??
Maybe this is why the stereotype persists?
(please keep this in perspective, most of the foreigners I know are in their twenties and I would say it’s the same for most Taiwanese college students…without knowing any older more settled foreigners what would you expect them to witness?)

[Tomas]

@Vannyel

[quote] We’re here only for money and sex; we’re all unfaithful to our spouses; most of us do drugs; if we manage to learn to speak Mandarin, we speak it with atrocious accents; we can’t get jobs back home; we’re here to use and then leave the poor women who fall in love with us; we spend all of our spare time in pubs, where and untold number of horrible things occur; we’re incapable of understanding local culture

You have just described at 50 percent of the foreigners I have met in Taiwan…so the stereotype is wrong only 50 percent of the time??
Maybe this is why the stereotype persists?[/quote]

Are you daft?

1. How could ALL of these stereotypes be true 50% of the time? Have you seen the sexual organs of all of the foreigners you’ve met? Have you done drugs with all of the foreigners you’ve met? Are you qualified to evaluate the accents of all Mandarin speaking foreigners you’ve met?
2. If we accept that you have indeed been in a position to accurately evaulate all of the foreigners you’ve met, how can we accept the conclusion that you’ve met a cross section of non-Taiwanese that is truly indicative of the entire population?

The stereotype persists because of ignorance (a nicer way to say this is lack of experience), a worthless media, and insecurities about Taiwan’s place in the world.

Do a little more observing before drawing such unsupportable conclusions.

[Vannyel]

@Tomas

[quote=“Vannyel”][quote] We’re here only for money and sex; we’re all unfaithful to our spouses; most of us do drugs; if we manage to learn to speak Mandarin, we speak it with atrocious accents; we can’t get jobs back home; we’re here to use and then leave the poor women who fall in love with us; we spend all of our spare time in pubs, where and untold number of horrible things occur; we’re incapable of understanding local culture

You have just described at 50 percent of the foreigners I have met in Taiwan…so the stereotype is wrong only 50 percent of the time??
Maybe this is why the stereotype persists?[/quote]

Are you daft?

1. How could ALL of these stereotypes be true 50% of the time? Have you seen the sexual organs of all of the foreigners you’ve met? Have you done drugs with all of the foreigners you’ve met? Are you qualified to evaluate the accents of all Mandarin speaking foreigners you’ve met?
2. If we accept that you have indeed been in a position to accurately evaulate all of the foreigners you’ve met, how can we accept the conclusion that you’ve met a cross section of non-Taiwanese that is truly indicative of the entire population?

The stereotype persists because of ignorance (a nicer way to say this is lack of experience), a worthless media, and insecurities about Taiwan’s place in the world.

Do a little more observing before drawing such unsupportable conclusions.[/quote]
Are you daft? I left out the sexual organs part…
Yes, I have done drugs with 50 percent of them. No, I can’t evaluate their language ability, I just go by what my Taiwanese friends tell me.
And half the guys I have met here have cheated on their partner.
It has nothing to do with ignorannce of the Taiwanese but the actions of the foreigners…

[mod_lang]

[quote=“Vannyel”]And half the guys I have met here have cheated on their partner.
[/quote]

Compared to the 90% of Taiwanese guys who do the same…

[acearle]

This is one of the most brilliant and insightful posts I have seen on any forum anywhere on the internet. Hats off to you, truly . Next time you are down my my neck of the woods, I’ll buy the lunch that goes with your beer .

@Tomas

[quote=“TomHill”] So when someone points it out I wonder [color=violet]why[/color] they have to point it out.

They have to point it out because they are uneducated, and in many cases, idiots.

I don’t mind being referred to as a “waiguo keren” (foreign customer) or the like in a situation where it clarifies my identity. What I hate is the rednecks who find it necessary to explain to their children that the guy who looks different from daddy is a “waiguoren.” “He’s a waiguoren, son.” The kid grows up thinking people who don’t look like daddy or one of the uncles are mysterious, strange creatures, to be observed but not understood. I’ve encountered only a few moms and dads here who say something like “He’s not Taiwanese. He probably came from a Western country.” One of the damning characteristics of this society is the fact that most Taiwanese people are unwilling to humanize a person from outside their own tribe.

I don’t require people to acknowledge me. I prefer that they ignore me if we’re not engaging in some business transaction or meeting on some social ocassion.

I have a strong distate for locals who find it necessary to observe what the waiguoren is doing at the moment, and make some foolish comment about how my behavior is somehow representative of all non-Taiwanese. “Look, the waiguoren is having a beer with his dinner. Those waiguoren drink beer like it’s water.”

Even worse are the ignorant comments aimed at my girlfriend. “She’s with a waiguoren. She’s one of those Western wanna-bes.” “That poor girl. She’s going to be so stretched out after making love with a waiguoren that no Taiwanese man will ever be able to satisfy her.”

If you read Mandarin, take a look at some of the BBS discussions going on at some of the top universities here. In case you weren’t aware of it, all of the media stereotypes about foreigners are alive and well among Taiwan’s top young minds. We’re here only for money and sex; we’re all unfaithful to our spouses; most of us do drugs; if we manage to learn to speak Mandarin, we speak it with atrocious accents; we can’t get jobs back home; we’ve got massive sexual organs; we’re here to use and then leave the poor women who fall in love with us; we spend all of our spare time in pubs, where and untold number of horrible things occur; we’re incapable of understanding local culture. The list goes on.

From a business standpoint, this country is missing out on all sorts of opportunities because people are stupid enough to buy into media and society perpetuated stereotypes. Time and again, I’ve witnessed Taiwanese companies blow a chance at a profitable deal with a foreign client because the managers involved make no effort to treat foreign clients as equals. They are “waiguoren,” good only for the money that can be made off of them, mysterious and exotic, “not like us.” I used to be a booster for Taiwanese businessness. No more. I’ve seen too much garbage, and in too high a percentage, to have much faith in Taiwanese businessness anymore. The sad truth is that there are more shysters per capita here than in any country I’ve done business in, save mainland China.

I have lived here for five years. Those of you who know me know that I speak and read fluent Mandarin, that I’ve maintained a strong interest in understanding what I experience and observe here, and that I’ve been deeply involved in business and social interactions with Taiwanese people. I’ve learned quite a bit, and have much more to learn still.

What you may not know is that shortly after I arrived here, and for roughly four years after that time, I was a huge fan of Taiwanese culture and society. While I’m still a fan of Taiwanese culture on an intellectual level and I appreciate a number of Taiwanese people on an individual basis, I’m no longer a fan of Taiwanese society. I may reach a different conclusion at some point in the future, but living here this long, among such a large percentage of ignorant, provincial people, has broken down my enthusiasm for this society. If my experience was that there were just a few bad apples in the bunch, I’d gladly maintain my former positive stance on Taiwan society. The problem, unfortunately, is not that there are a few bad apples. The problem is in fact with most of the bunch.

Taiwan society doesn’t have to change for me, and I know plenty of Taiwanese people on an individual basis whom I enjoy and appreciate. I’m saying that as a whole, if Taiwanese society wants to save itself, it had better figure out a way to start thinking of non-Taiwanese people as human beings, not as mysterious animals that can be observed, commented on, and marginalized, but never understood. Otherwise, I think this little island country hasn’t got much chance at a bright future.[/quote]

[Vannyel]

[quote=“mod lang”][quote=“Vannyel”]And half the guys I have met here have cheated on their partner.
[/quote]

Compared to the 90% of Taiwanese guys who do the same…[/quote]

Probably true…but we were trashing the nasty waigouren, right?

But seriously, have none of you guys ever traveled to ‘middle America’? Stereotypes flourish there. Maybe not the in your face stuff but definitely behind your back crap.
Want to meet some ‘ignorant, provincial people’ then move to Henderson Tennessee or Blanchard Oklahoma, or hell, just move to Tennessee, Oklahoma, Arkansas, West Virginia, Kentucky, Louisiana, Mississippi…damn the list is too long for me…

[YJaeger]

Yeah yeah yeah, blah blah blah tomas , yeah, its a trashy island filled with ignorant yellow people , yeah people get that. How nice of you Caucasians to drop by and fuck these colored girls in Taiwan.

Ignorant provincial people? yeah ok, whatever, tomas, maybe you and blueface can chain one of these little colored provincial people and tow him behind your confederate flagged pickup and drag them around to educate them eh? teach them to respect and bow down to the great Aryan race eh?

What a bunch of bullshit, whites complaining about racism towards them outside the West, when they do it every fucking day within their own countries.

[sandman]

@Tomas

In case you weren’t aware of it, all of the media stereotypes about foreigners are alive and well among Taiwan’s top young minds. We’re here only for money and sex

@Yeager

Yeah yeah yeah, blah blah blah tomas , yeah, its a trashy island filled with ignorant yellow people , yeah people get that. How nice of you Caucasians to drop by and fuck these colored girls in Taiwan.

Seems he made your point quite nicely, Tomas.

[Tomas]

[quote=“YJaeger”]Yeah yeah yeah, blah blah blah tomas , yeah, its a trashy island filled with ignorant yellow people , yeah people get that. How nice of you Caucasians to drop by and fuck these colored girls in Taiwan.

Ignorant provincial people? yeah ok, whatever, tomas, maybe you and blueface can chain one of these little colored provincial people and tow him behind your confederate flagged pickup and drag them around to educate them eh? teach them to respect and bow down to the great Aryan race eh?

What a bunch of bullshit, whites complaining about racism towards them outside the West, when they do it every fucking day within their own countries.[/quote]

Why don’t you respond with something logical, rather than an ad hominim argument that shows an inability to analyze an argument rationally? Or is hate-laced vitriol all you’re capable of? If you’re capable of rational debate, I welcome an intelligent rebuttal.

In my post, I did not call Taiwan a racist society. I called it provincial and ignorant, but pointed out that there are a number of individuals who, for me, are redeeming aspects of life here. I never made the statement that women here owe foreign men anything, and I never stated that I believe my race is superior to any other race. I wrote about societal attitudes, not race.

There are other problems with Taiwanese society that affect wider groups of people than the foreign population in Taiwan. The objectification of women affects half of the population.

Grow up and write something intelligent. Your post is puerile in the extreme.

Or would you prefer it if we just shouted “fuck you!” at each other ?

[mod_lang]

[quote=“YJaeger”]How nice of you Caucasians to drop by and fuck these colored girls in Taiwan.

[/quote]

Why the endless obsession with foreigners’ sex lives? Of all the things to complain about foreigners, most Taiwanese keep honing in on this one issue…SEX. It says much more about these complainers’ “issues” than it does about the foreigners complained about. I wonder what a psychologist would have to say. It’s disturbing that people like YJaeger worry so much about other people’s sex lives, and want to condemn other people for the audacity of having sex with women (note how it’s always “girls” being fucked by “foreign men” but never adult “women” fully capable of making their own choices about whom they’re going to sleep with, when these racist complaints always rear their ugly head).

Ever heard of the The Rorschach Test? What you say about foreigners tells us more about your own pathologies than anything else.

[Yellow_Cartman]

mod lang, it stems from the fact that ignorant, provincial people who are insecure of themselves are extremely protective of “their women”. So it naturally follows that waiguorens who “get lucky” with “their women” will find (1) disproportionate amount of attention paid to their sex lives and (2) the “objectification” and “degradation” of the the sell-out women.

Gotta love human nature.