When expiates in Taiwan complain about Taiwanese has been rude for calling foreigners…well…
Classic :loco: !
[quote=“winca”]How about your own motherland? How does it treat foreigners? And don
My wife is Chinese. She was welcomed with open arms by my relatives in Georgia. Here in California, she has more friends than I do. Although I do remember one incident in Pennsylvania when I overheard a daughter berating her father for apparently making some sort of comment about mixed-race couples (Dad, you won’t be happy until everyone dyes their skin white!). I think a lot might depend on the area where you live. But as you said, I’ve never been a foreigner in my own country. I’m also apparently not very observant. In Taiwan, my wife would often notice people giving us funny looks, whereas I never did. And the whole “waiguoren” thing and people fawning over our kids never bothered me. Not being able to flush toilet paper was a far greater concern.
[quote=“winca”]
BTW, see how majority American would react if a white, Hispanic, or Asian woman makes out with an African American man in public, especially, in the southern area![/quote]
Aahhh, yes, the old stereotypes about the South bit. I am sure they’d really freak out in Atlanta, New Orleans, Knoxville, Miami, etc. You know, the people in those cities are just so much more backwards than in comparatively sized cities in Taiwan. 
Many people from Asian countries mistake me for one of their own, whether it be Japanese or Thailand. But I notice, in Thailand at least, they are much better than the Taiwanese at getting their minds around the fact that I’m not.
I spent most of July in Thailand and most locals would mistake me as Thai, and start blabbering away in Thai at me. When I told them I wasn’t Thai, they’d laugh at themselves for making the mistake and switch over to English. I was even referred to as farang.
One morning a couple of weeks ago, I was asking a security guard at Lotus Hill to order a taxi for myself and two other (white) foreigners. I listened as he told the taxi driver to look for two “waiguoren” and one “xiaojie.” I immediately told him that this “xiaojie” was also a “waiguoren.” He and the other guard on duty looked at me as if I was the one who had made some mistake.
Another time, I was sitting on the MRT and there was an elderly woman next to me. She started asking me a question in Taiwanese, which I have zero ability in. When she paused, I told her in Mandarin that I wasn’t from Taiwan and apologized for not being able to understand her. When she started again, it was still in Taiwanese! I repeated my apology, and she simply gave up. She didn’t even try again in Mandarin!
[quote=“aprimo”]She started asking me a question in Taiwanese, which I have zero ability in. When she paused, I told her in Mandarin that I wasn’t from Taiwan and apologized for not being able to understand her. When she started again, it was still in Taiwanese![/quote]Don’t worry, this happens to me all the time, and I don’t look even remotely Asian 
Everything looks like a nail to one who only has a hammer in his toolbox.
[quote=“YJaeger”]
What a bunch of bullshit, whites complaining about racism towards them outside the West, when they do it every fucking day within their own countries.[/quote]
Gee, since you know me so well, I guess I have to burn my KKK membership card .
A question…
…are you white?
If so, refer to the quote from you above.
[quote=“Flicka”][quote=“winca”]
BTW, see how majority American would react if a white, Hispanic, or Asian woman makes out with an African American man in public, especially, in the southern area![/quote]
Aahhh, yes, the old stereotypes about the South bit. I am sure they’d really freak out in Atlanta, New Orleans, Knoxville, Miami, etc. You know, the people in those cities are just so much more backwards than in comparatively sized cities in Taiwan. [/quote]
80% of the people I have run across online who claim that mixed race marriages are bad/disgusting/unnatural are from the south. I suspect that these same people would keep their mouths shut in a face to face encounter. My father quit communicating with a large part of our family in the south due to an incident in the late 1960s. These insane viewpoints are more common in the south than in the north. Surveys are, I suspect, worthless because most of the people who hold them have figured out that it is not politically correct to voice them.
Back to the topic, calling someone a foreigner here shows provincialism and de-personification of the individual, depending on how it is delivered. “The burger is for the foreigner” is a quick way of making sure the burger gets to the right customer. In the US, someone at McD might say “Hey. take this burger to the Asian guy.” That way it gets where it needs to go. However, I have YET to see a kid on the street pointing at someone from Asia and say “Asian!” then run up to see what the person is eating, drinking, reading, carrying or ???. Curriosity? Yes. Rude? Yes. Even the Chinese agree. Undisciplined? Yes (genuine discipline of kids outside from a whack with no real consequences is quite rare around here). I hear the same things at the zoo “Ho Dz” (monkey) and the kids run to see what the monkey is eating, drinking…or “Da Hsiang” (elephant) and the kids run to see what the elephant is eating or drinking…you get my point. I have mentioned to quite a few older students that the best way to get “foreign friends” is to not approach them as a source of free English lessons and to acknowledge to themselves that they are people, just like Chinese. I have Chinese friends who agree that many of the more bumpkin-like people see wai guo ren sort of in the same way they see a zoo exhibit. THERE ARE FAR FEWER OF THESE IDJITS THAN 10 YEARS AGO. In fact, 10 years ago I had 1 Chinese friend. Now the vast majority are Chinese (albeit city dwellers, in the countryside I am still just a performer in the Mokey Files 
) ).
Sheesh, I just woke up…no coffee…hope that blathering makes sense 
.
Tomas who seems to be such an expert on Taiwan doesn’t seem to realize that ignorant provincialism is alive and well all over the world. People who live in isolation and wax idiotic about things they don’t understand. I’ve been all over the world and I’ve found the same thing just about everywhere I go… Canada, the US, Ireland, France, Korea, Japan…
Nor does he realize that Taiwan was one of the poorest countries in the world within most of our lifetimes… The great majority of Taiwanese had little or no contact with the outside world - does enlightenment appear overnight and out of thin air - I think you’re setting the bar a little high don’t you…
A little ignorance of your own - ignorance of the privileged.
That being said I’ve found the Taiwanese much more tolerant and welcoming than I have seen other countries. Very blatant in a lot of areas in the US, England, Ireland, France, - less in your face but nonetheless existant in Canada.
My experiences in Korea and Japan were quite good but the I know a great deal of people who have lived in China, Japan and Korea and find Taiwanese far and away more friendly and accepting…
I realize that these are my experiences - not that I haven’t seen foreigners treated badly here but I’ve seen a lot of nasty behaviour and ignorance on the part of foreigners to balance that.
I dated a Taiwanese girl quite a number of years and when I met her family I was completely prepared for the worst but the immediate family and all the (and there was a hell of a lot) reletives were nothing but extremely welcoming and civil with me… Far better treatment than you’d get in a lot of places…
So I don’t see your contempt for the society here…
Maybe you’re just an ass
(just kidding)
…kinda…
Just be glad that you’re not phillipino or indonesian - then you’d really be in for some unfair treatment.
[quote=“winca”]
It is sad for anyone who has to leave his own country to make a living out of whatever reasons. There
Having travelled in Asia, Europe, USA and the Pacific I’ve found that some groups within cultures usually fear the unknown - the foreign. Demonization of foreigners is probably universal and appears at some level in all cultures. Obviously when a physical characteristic differentiates you from the majority you will be labelled by people. Depending on a ‘native’ person’s manners and sophistication the labelling will range from a mental note of difference to spittle spraying obscenity.
After 3 months in Taipei I’ve been more concerned with being labelled ‘meigouren’ when I’m from ‘aojo’, I’m sure the young woman in Starbucks mentally cries “oh no language confusion coming up” when I get my superlattefrappachino with beef jerky twist…no big deal. I’m the one who is not a native or a citizen.We usually smile and laugh and she ends up with money and I get a java.
Being excluded, spat on, having doors shut in your face, being denied service, lied to, ignored in shops, placed in the dirtiest loneliest place in a bar/hotel/restaurant, having a train full of children chant “foreigner” in unison etc etc. does not happen here. You need to go to Japan for that pleasure.
Honestly, living in Taipei with sub-idiot level Chinese is soooooooo much easier than living in Tokyo with fluent Japanese. A polite request in pretty damn fluent Japanese was often met with “Don’t speak English” “Hotel Closed” “Members Only” or similar overtly discriminatory gambits. After 5 years it became very tiresome.
One bizarre example of hyper-racism in Japan: My wife, two japanese friends and I were in Nara visiting temples etc. We attempted to park our HONDA car in a parking lot. There was a lot of shouting, arm waving and attendants barring the entrance. After some discussion it was discovered that the car park wasn’t full, no…but, we had an AMERICAN car(!). We pointed out that in fact that the car was a HONDA & it was a local product; it couldn’t be a foreign car. Lots of eyes looking at the ground and then a very bizarre claim “because it was driven by foreigner it must be a foreign car and too big for the parking lot”. It was so bizarre we couldn’t really work it all out at the time. (Sorry to rave)
So…take it on the chin and think yourself lucky you’re not Turkish in Germany or Algerian in France or Aboriginal in Australia etc etc.
my point exactly
thanks philip
Because ‘waiguoren’ does not mean ‘foreigner’. It means ‘ethnically non-Asian’.
Brian
[quote=“juvenilemania”]Tomas who seems to be such an expert on Taiwan doesn’t seem to realize that ignorant provincialism is alive and well all over the world. People who live in isolation and wax idiotic about things they don’t understand. I’ve been all over the world and I’ve found the same thing just about everywhere I go… Canada, the US, Ireland, France, Korea, Japan…
Nor does he realize that Taiwan was one of the poorest countries in the world within most of our lifetimes… The great majority of Taiwanese had little or no contact with the outside world - does enlightenment appear overnight and out of thin air - I think you’re setting the bar a little high don’t you…
A little ignorance of your own - ignorance of the privileged.
That being said I’ve found the Taiwanese much more tolerant and welcoming than I have seen other countries. Very blatant in a lot of areas in the US, England, Ireland, France, - less in your face but nonetheless existant in Canada.
My experiences in Korea and Japan were quite good but the I know a great deal of people who have lived in China, Japan and Korea and find Taiwanese far and away more friendly and accepting…
I realize that these are my experiences - not that I haven’t seen foreigners treated badly here but I’ve seen a lot of nasty behaviour and ignorance on the part of foreigners to balance that.
I dated a Taiwanese girl quite a number of years and when I met her family I was completely prepared for the worst but the immediate family and all the (and there was a hell of a lot) reletives were nothing but extremely welcoming and civil with me… Far better treatment than you’d get in a lot of places…
So I don’t see your contempt for the society here…
Maybe you’re just an ass
(just kidding)
…kinda…
Just be glad that you’re not phillipino or indonesian - then you’d really be in for some unfair treatment.[/quote]
So, your experience is different from mine. Does that make me an ass? I’d say you’re quite an ass yourself for all of the ad hominim elements of your argument, which is based entirely on your own experience. What exactly is your agenda? Defender of the Taiwanese? If you think I hate the Taiwanese, you’ve completely missed the point.
Your rebuttal seems to be based on a lot of assumptions about me; that I am not an expert on Taiwanese culture and history; that I am somehow privileged, whatever that means; that my experiences are not valid because they are different from your own. How are you qualified to make decisions about me when you don’t know me, and know nothing about my background or expertise? Try and develop an argument based on evidence, not assumptions, and you’ll be much more convincing.
The fact that your own argument states that things are much better in Japan, and then you go on to agree in a later post with someone (phillip) who’s point is that things are much worse in Japan than they are in Taiwan, leads me to wonder whether you’re capable of developing a logical argument, one based on observation and rational thought rather than emotion.
And so what if things are worse in Japan than they are here? So what if there are provincial people in every country in the world? Do you actually think that provincialism in another society means it’s acceptable for another society to exhibit these characteristics? Isn’t provincialism and marginalization of a particular race intolerable in any country?
The last point you make, that I should be glad I’m not from a Southeast Asian country, contradicts your entire argument. You are saying that because things are much worse for those people, I should be grateful I’m not one of them–Isn’t that even more damning of Taiwanese society than anything I’ve written?
Relax and get off the defensive. There’s no need to defend Taiwan society against me.
hoo hoo!
Of course provincialism and marginalization is a terrible thing … to live as a foreigner in another country, howver, and not expect some kind of marginalization is naive. It more a question of degree
From my experience and the experience of most of the people I know (i’ve lived here for quite a while and know quite a few people. Taiwan is quite friendly and welcoming considering its reletive isolation and comparatively limited contact with the rest of the world.
To clarify - my experiences in Korea and Japan were quite short but most people I know (especially those who lived there longer and moved here) find the situation better in Taiwan.
To be honest - from my experience- the majority of people who have terrible experiences here bring it on themselves - whether you fit into that category or are just unlucky - I don’t know.
The bad treatment goes both ways - but all in all I’d have to give the Taiwanese pretty high marks
As far as knowing you - I know as much about you as you write and if I slag on you maybe you should think about why - maybe think about taking a little venom out of your threads…
whose defensive here…
I never want to make any generalize command about anything, as I don
[quote=“winca”]
It is sad for anyone who has to leave his own country to make a living out of whatever reasons. There
And make no mistake. The world’s heaviest flying bird can give you a nasty kick, especially if they’re educated enough to select a good target area. 