Is Jesus Outdated?

Discussion Open Forum
41

To Bassmen’s earlier responce:

Here’s what I think on Jesus’s statement about judgement. I don’t think there is any room for exception on judgement. Opinions,critizism,etc are all forms of judgement as we create them based on ‘what we claim to know’. When in fact we don’t know anything.

What I believe is Jesus was a powerful soul/person whom I believe came to awaken ‘us’ from the teachings of the old testiment. Hence changing our relationship with God to an interpersonal one. Also, changing our relationship with each other. The core of Jesus’s teachings is love. Uncondition love, which you can not have if you are dealing with opionions,critisims and so forth because these remove and seperate you from authentic love, which is stated in the beatifully in Corinthians 13(love is patient…).

Bassman wrote:

It’s not a tough to have a biblical love for Osama bin Laden and company. It’s our fear of having to stand apart from the lynch mob mentality that prevents us from sending them love.

42

[quote=“Namahottie”]To Bassmen’s earlier responce:

Here’s what I think on Jesus’s statement about judgement. I don’t think there is any room for exception on judgement. Opinions,critizism,etc are all forms of judgement as we create them based on ‘what we claim to know’. When in fact we don’t know anything.

[/quote]

I don’t think you are wrong, well, with what you mean by what you are saying. Perhaps your misunderstanding is in your definition of judgement. Think of your judgement as discernment. Even Jesus asked us to be wise and discerning. All of this requires a certain form of judgement, like a “judgement call” kind of thing. That is different from the kind of judgement that you are referring to. There is right and wrong, therefore if our opinion is based on unshakeable truth then it is perfectly acceptable to have one. Opinions are ok, but then opinions are just that - opinions. My opinion counts for nothing, only one opinion matters and that opinion belongs to … you know who.

Yes, you are right. We don’t know anything. But, one opinion that I will hold fast to is that there is a God, He loves us, and wants the best for us.

43

[quote=“Namahottie”]

It’s not a tough to have a biblical love for Osama bin Laden and company. It’s our fear of having to stand apart from the lynch mob mentality that prevents us from sending them love.[/quote]

If you were an average Christian and your nearest and dearest family member was in the WTC, I think you’d have a struggle with loving them. It could be a huge test for ones faith.

Next point for all.

Does any of the theological debate really make Jesus any less relevant to our lives today. I mean the person of Jesus and Jesus as the son of God. Or does it mean that the translations of ancient text are now difficult to understand and apply to our lives.

Personally, I think that the message of Jesus applies just as much to us today as it ever did. Sometimes we get so bogged down in opinions and theology that we have little time for relationship and fellowship with the Creator.

Outdated, no. Been stooped in tradition and failed to remain fresh in the church - YES.

The church in general is a poor reflection of its master. It’s the bride of Christ that has been raped by the world (more often than not by those inside the church), compromised itself, and stands waiting at the alter in a torn wedding dress.

No wonder the world looks at the Church in disbelief. We confess one thing with our lips and live another (myself included). Why should they want to follow when the Church is just like them. If you doubt it, just look around. To deny that would be to deny something that is standing right in front of our faces.

If, one day, the true church would stand up and have the true Jesus stand up and live in them, well, then the world would have something to believe in.

But then, that’s just me. I don’t know anything. :slight_smile:

44

I take tremendous hope from the idea that there is no God because it means that all of that great philosophy comes from inside us. People seem to forget this essential point. There is no more reason to question our ethical nature than there is to question the existence of any physical object. In both cases we know these things exist because we can sense them. In both the physical and spiritual world there are things that are clear to us and things that are less certain, but with practice we can make more accurate discernments in each. I don’t know that much about the bible but I know enough to understand that, as with anything else, it is best understood in context. If you know all of what jesus said and you know the context in which he said those things then you will be able to understand what his message was about. And sometimes a lot of what he said could just as reasonably be expressed differently. I believe that a recurring theme in the bible is that “We are all gods children.” As a result of studying the Dali Lama’s teachings over the last few years I have come to an understanding that is very similar to this. What I believe is that all human beings are essentially the same. If you dig deep enough inside everyone there is a core of purity and love. There is “something” - some call it a soul - that wants and needs to exist in harmony with others. That wants to do the right thing. This essential core can become buried beneath layers of confusion and hate however and this I think is what the phrase “We are all god’s children” relates to. “Love thy enemy” is similar. Your enemy isn’t essentially any different from you and this is why it makes sense to love him. And it makes practical sense as well because the evil you see in people is mostly caused by a feelings of fear and loneliness. Treat him with love and his behaviour is likely to improve. I have been trying this one out a lot the last couple of years and what I have discovered is that it is absolutely true. The arrogant, rude selfish person melts when confronted with any sort of warmth and attention.

So basically no, I don’t think Jesus is out of date. I don’t think he will be out of date till human nature loses it’s soul. However I don’t see what God has to do with any of this. What I am describing are things that I have experienced personally. God is nowhere in the picture. In fact I have no idea what people mean when they use the word. I never have.

45

You’ll have to forgive me if I come stumbling out of the gate. I just registered on Forumosa today, thanks to the recommendation of a good friend.

I can honestly say that the most helpful, practical advice I’ve ever received on how to live a happy life has come from Jesus’ sayings in the Bible. In fact, to my mind, there’s no advice that’s more relevant and helpful today than the stuff Jesus is quoted as saying. Even so, there are times when I read the things Jesus is quoted as saying in the Bible and my initial response is one of shock, confusion or dismay. The passage Mother Theresa quoted about turning the other cheek is a prime example, one which, at least for me, goes against the grain of my own desire to fight back, defend myself and the ones I love, or get revenge. As a Christian, I often fall short of Jesus’ command to turn the other cheek.

But what amazes me even more about Jesus is the extent to which he lived out the stuff he was talking about. If one were to take Jesus at his word when he says that he is the Son of God and the Savior of the world, you would think he would have more than enough power to save and defend himself during his own trial, torture and crucifixion. And yet Jesus is described as hardly saying a word, even when given the chance to, and not putting up a fight. Whether or not you believe Jesus is the Son of God, I tend to think that Jesus’ ability here to practice what he preached is pretty admirable, and his words very much in contradiction to what a ‘normal’ person would consider to be natural. And that’s the thing: if anyone were to seriously undertake to live according to what Jesus said, I think you’d discover at least two things: (1) what Jesus is telling me to do runs counter to what I and most people are doing, and yet he’s telling me that his way is the way to really live; and (2) I can’t live up to what Jesus is telling me to do, not by my own power at least. The only way I can live the way Jesus wants me to is if Someone helped me out a little… or a lot.

On a side note, Mother Theresa mentioned that she couldn’t believe in a God like the one described in Ezekiel, and I can sympathize with that. No one wants to be faced with a wrathful, fire-bringing God; we much prefer to see God as a God of love, peace, and hope. (Incidentally, I don’t think the concept of a God of wrath like the one quoted in Ezekiel and a God of love like the one we see in the Gospels are mutually exclusive.) But one thing though: if our belief in God was strictly conditional upon God conforming to everything we insisted God should be, and God “wasn’t allowed” to have any characteristics that offended us, surprised us or confused us, it seems to me that we might be fabricating God in accordance with our own wants and preferences rather than being truly open to the existence of a God who is bigger than we think.

Thanks for bringing up the question, Mother Theresa – it’s a great one. Jesus is quoted in the Bible as saying some strange things sometimes and a forum like this is helpful for trying to flush stuff like this out. If there’s anyone out there in Forumosa who’s interested, there’s also a group specifically for expats like us called Thrive that meets every Saturday afternoon in Yong He and has the nasty habit of discussing questions like the one Mother Theresa asked. At these meetings, there’s always an emphasis on “how, if it all, does the Bible and the stuff Jesus says really make a difference”. You don’t have to have a particular point of view or be a Christian to participate, and there’s always bound to be at least a couple Formosans in attendance. Plus, it’s often a lot of fun (e.g. last week my wife won the paper airplane flying contest and blindfolded pictionary was quite the battle royale!) If anyone’s interested in checking out Thrive, feel free to let me know.

46

Mandarin student,

What an awesome post. :notworthy:

If I had a hat, I’d take it off to you.

47

Maybe a good question would be: would you choose Jesus as a personal role model?

I’d have to say yes. A rebel, manic at times (think turning tables in the temple),and thoughtful beyond his years (that would be nice).

His message was one of a sheep choosing freedom from the shepard. I can relate.

Take a gander at Joseph Campbell’s Hero With A Thousand Faces. The human psyche has created lots of role model/gods incredibly similar in incredibly distant unconnected lands, suggesting that the act of creating gods is indeed an INNER thing.

Again I quote: “The kingdom of heaven is upon you, you just don’t see it.”

I try to see bit of it everyday. No name. No structure behind it. But I try like crazy to have a spark or two or perfection each day.

48

Welcome to Forumosa mandarinstudent. :slight_smile: I liked your post. Jesus has given me the best advices too.

49

Jesus was either who he said he was - the son of “god” and all that - or he wasn’t. If you don’t believe in god then you are left with the problem of decideing whether jesus was: 1) A liar. 2) An insane person. 3) A genius. 4) Some combination of the preceeding. I am going with 4, specifically a combination of 2 and 3, and placing him within the context of a culture that had been waiting for him for a long long time. He was a genius regarding human nature and crazy enough to believe he was god. Mandarin student’s post takes the existence of god as a starting point and runs from there. The bible is true and it is not up to us to question it. If it seems contradictory then there is some deficiency in our undertsanding etc. But what if all of that isn’t true? What if the inteligence that created the bible over a span of five hundred years is the same one operating here in this thread? Personally, I take a lot more comfort in that notion.

50

MS and others who liked ms’s post, do you find yourselves that simple that you wouldn’t even be able to live such a simple life? I am not willing to except that not one person who agreed with MS would be able to live Jesus’s teachings. Of course you could live up to what Jesus is telling you to do, it would just mean that you would have to ‘give’ up some other things. And I disagree that someone couldn’t do it as it states in Mark 9:23-24 “Anything is possible if a person believes”
Look at all the destruction and things we have around us today, and what we are trying to create for the future, and for someone to tell me that they don’t have in them to live as Jesus hoped we would is hogwash. I have more faith in humans ablities In fact, I KNOW human can do it…

51

[quote=“Namahottie”]
MS and others who liked ms’s post, do you find yourselves that simple that you wouldn’t even be able to live such a simple life? I am not willing to except that not one person who agreed with MS would be able to live Jesus’s teachings. Of course you could live up to what Jesus is telling you to do, it would just mean that you would have to ‘give’ up some other things. And I disagree that someone couldn’t do it as it states in Mark 9:23-24 “Anything is possible if a person believes” [/quote]

I’m a total cynical bastard with respect to human nature. Like sandman’s sig says, but said more eloquently here:

[quote=“Thomas Macaulay”]The measure of a man’s real character is what he would do if he would never be found out[/quote].
Sacrifice, humility, compromise, are not normal human behaviors. Selfishness, ego, intolerance are typical human behaviors. Humankind almost invariably makes the WRONG choices when it comes down to deciding for itself and others. But with the right models and solid moral and ethical foundations, one can achieve living a life that would seem impossible to do. It takes work but I agree with Mark 9:23-24, if you believe, you will succeed.

52

Nope. People have ethical impulses and feel happier when they live by them. It is that simple. Humility, sacrafice, compromise are absolutely typical behaviours and are in the fact the things that have made our survival as a species possible.

53

[quote=“hatch”]
My bad Danimal, my post was badly composed. I meant give me an example where you would [color=black]not[/color] turn the other cheek. I gave an extreme example myself because it seems obvious that surviving as an individual is what most of us would do if not all of us. The survival instinct is something next to impossible to overcome when it comes to doing the right thing especially if doing the right thing means to sacrifice your own life. At least one of us did it and many love him for that. Jesus could have chosen to live too imo, was his choice unapropriate then?[/quote]

I don’t think I could answer that because I don’t think the account recorded in the Bible is what really happened. Hypothetically, though, self-sacrifice is a powerful idea, so it would have been appropriate either way.

54

There’s another possibility:

  1. A man who only vaguely resembles the description attributed to him in the Bible, owing his legacy to embellishment and revisionism.

EDIT:

[quote=“bob”]
Mandarin student’s post takes the existence of god as a starting point and runs from there. The bible is true and it is not up to us to question it. If it seems contradictory then there is some deficiency in our undertsanding etc. But what if all of that isn’t true? What if the inteligence that created the bible over a span of five hundred years is the same one operating here in this thread? Personally, I take a lot more comfort in that notion. [/quote]
'er… oops. Didn’t mean to sound redundant. Although, I should add that it kind of makes me wonder why people say things like, “I take a lot more comfort in (x), so that’s what I’m going to believe.” It seems to me that things are true independent of how we feel about them.

55

Slightly off topic but here goes. Last year I read a book by Aldous Huxley called “The Perennial Philosophy”. Absolutely fascinating tie in of the common threads of the world’s major religions. Something special happened during the Axial Age when mankind came to a common realization of the importance of morality and spirituality, even if the spiritual part was metaphorical.

56

danimal wrote - There’s another possibility:

  1. A man who only vaguely resembles the description attributed to him in the Bible, owing his legacy to embellishment and revisionism.

bob wrote - That seems like a reasonable proposition. It points to the truth of what you see in my quote bellow.

EDIT:

[quote=“bob”]
Mandarin student’s post takes the existence of god as a starting point and runs from there. The bible is true and it is not up to us to question it. If it seems contradictory then there is some deficiency in our undertsanding etc. But what if all of that isn’t true? What if the inteligence that created the bible over a span of five hundred years is the same one operating here in this thread? Personally, I take a lot more comfort in that notion. [/quote]
'danimal wrote - er… oops. Didn’t mean to sound redundant. Although, I should add that it kind of makes me wonder why people say things like, “I take a lot more comfort in (x), so that’s what I’m going to believe.” It seems to me that things are true independent of how we feel about them.[/quote]

bob wrote -I didn’t say it gives me comfort “so” I’m going to believe it. I said I believe that it is the truth, and that truth gives me comfort. Major difference. I would believe it even if it didn’t give me comfort but I don’t really see how that would be possible.

57

Sorry bob, but a cursory study of history absolutely refutes this naive assertation. And we haven’t even gotten to personal daily lives … particularly nowadays that seems much more about Me and My Entitlement.

58

Nope. History is filled with bravery and self sacrafice. And everyday life is filled with compassion, tolerance and small acts of kindness. It just doesn’t make the news. I am not saying bad things don’t happen. I am saying that these bad things run counter to human nature. People who consistently do evil things are unhappy to begin with and usually end up paranoid and alone. Human nature strives for happiness and happiness is found in rough and ready harmony with others. Most of the problems you see in the world are simply ignorance of that fact.

59

I think bob’s right.

60

I think bob’s wrong.

Bob is saying that essentially humans are good, which is counter to the Bible that says, all humans are evil, and are born that way. Nothing we can do makes us “good”. It is only through Jesus, the topic of this thread, that we can be made clean.