Hi all - don’t want to burden anyone with a long backstory so please allow me to post a truncated version of events:
-I have an opportunity to work in Taiwan for a pay package that is way above the avg. pay in that position (but slightly inferior to what I make here)
-My wife and I would have to move to Taiwan full-time (obviously) from the USA (New York)
-I lived in Taiwan for several years and have family there so it’s not a completely alien place
My biggest concern is the quality of life in Taiwan. Surprisingly many people I know are telling us not to move back b/c the quality of life in Taipei is said to be subpar. They cite things like overwhelming work hours and the limited number of things to do for the long term as a major headwind. Friends are concerned that it’s one thing to visit here for fun, but it’s another thing to leave a huge dynamic major city to move back to Taipei for the long term. I guess what I’m saying is, I don’t want to use my family visits and vacations as my main metric in determining whether or not living there full-time would be a pleasant experience.
What are some of the biggest pros/cons of living in Taipei from your view? Am I insane to come back? Also - is it true that a big reason why Taiwan can’t attract good talent is because of terrible prospective opportunities there and also a general sense of malaise about Taiwan’s future? Are things really that bad there?
Hi all - thanks for the quick replies. I do appreciate it.
As for my experiences living in Taiwan - it was for too short a period of time. Either it was during my youth, or during extended vacations. I can’t honestly say I “lived there” per se, but what I’m trying to avoid is using my vacation experiences as the way to judge. After all, it was all peaches & cream. Who doesn’t like eating out all the time w/friends and family and just chllin? But I know if I use that as my “impression” of Taiwan, I’d be probably coming back for the wrong reasons.
My wife is from Taiwan. But she’s actually more Americanized than I am. While I’ve lived in Asia less than her, she has adopted the ways of America 100%. Therefore I am concerned about culture shocks. It’s one thing to deal w/people on a personal level, but from a professional level I’ve been warned about the massive divide between Taiwanese workplace culture and the US. Many people are saying things about Taiwan and none of them have been positive. If anyone can explain this more, I’d greatly appreciate it so I can truly understand.
I am glad to hear that not every expat is miserable there lol. It is a nice relief. But for people used to a lightning fast way of life, is Taiwan going to suck the life out of us? I remember recently I ran into an expat who was stationed in Taiwan for 6 months (I think he was Aussie). He told me while he loved some aspects of Taiwan life, he couldn’t wait to get the hell out of there. I tried to get as much out of him as possible, but all he said was that “people are nuts here, they have no idea how to work in a productive manner”.
He wasn’t the only expat who gave me that impression. I’ve met expats in other major firms (banks, technology, etc) who gave me the same response. There was fatigue in their eyes, and they didn’t seem like they were company outcasts either. They were all talented senior-management types who just seemed unhappy about being in Taiwan.
What do you folks think is the biggest challenge of living in Taiwan from your perspective? Your own personal frustrations?
Thanks again for all this. You may not believe it, but all this will be life changing either way
Sorry for the double post - but just to illuminate on the first response - there are pros/cons with living in the US. To be honest, the only real allure of going back to Taiwan for me is family. Can I really spend time with my loved ones and is Taiwan really the best place to raise a child (we plan to have one very soon) vs the US? I’d love to go back b/c it makes sense, but when every person I know says working in Taiwan is like working in a sweatshop, it kinds of defeats the purpose of going home for family if I don’t have time for them …
Those are the answers I don’t have, but I do know with bombs going off in the US … it’s not all fun here either!
I also prefer living here…at the moment. The issue with work can be critical. I am lucky ,in that I more or less do things my way. Many Taiwan Companies,have an old guy in charge,who will make completely stupid,nonsensical decisions,which everyone is too frightened to question. Even US companies ,run by Taiwanese ,can be like this. EG, they will promise to deliver a Service in a completely unreasonable time,just to win the business,then have everyone working round the clock,to achieve the impossible. That may be seen as a plus,by some,but it’s not good for Employees.
You will not find any Taiwanese willing to question Management in any way. It depends on your Autonomy within the Company,as to whether you will be at ease in Taiwan,maybe.
Some of the very reasons that annoy Expats here,are the same reasons they enjoy the place… E.G less enforcement of Laws etc,Hot weather,New Language.
No single answer for you,just check very carefully terms and conditions at Work…Oh I forgot, they won’t follow those Terms…Ha Ha .
Sounds to me, that while you have the tools to live in Taiwan, Im not certain its a correct move for you. I gather both you and your wife are Taiwanese emigre to the USA. Why go back?
Emigre are best at the country they went to , often because the reasons they left in the first place still exist?
That is quite true, though part of the decision is to consider expanding our career rolodex. Also of course no matter what there will always be glass ceilings in foreign countries. While we’ve done well, we’re not sure if the US will offer more opportunities. Many emigres face that issue after being in a nation so logically many are thinking of opportunities in Asia. But quality of life is important … and my fear is Taiwan’s quality of life (e.g. work/life balance, environment, political instability) is going to be substantially inferior to the US’s version of the middle-class lifestyle … is that an accurate assessment in your view?
I think the fact that you’re trying to make a rational decision bodes ill for you. You are doing what any intelligent American would do, the problem is that logic in Taiwan is different . Logic will seem like a fictional animal when you first arrive. Lots of confusion and frustration, none of which you can understand.
So what it truly comes down to is your own attitude. If you have a positive attitude about Taiwan and what you’re moving there for, then you’ll be okay. For the first six months or so, all the illogical confusion will seem like a rather fun challenge of getting settled in and used to your new home. Many people hit a wall of homesickness at about that time. If you make it through that time (which will be easier in Taipei–or you may not even hit that wall), then you’re likely to be fine for any length of time.
Some people take a mental health trip every other year or so, and many are fine never stepping off the island for decades.
If you WANT to be able to do this, then you will be able to do it just fine.
Everything you might want can be found in Taipei–excluding American family and friends.
So maybe the question is whether or not it’s worth leaving America. Either way, it’s your attitude that will make all the difference.
Thanks so much for the reply. I have heard of this logical disconnect but I’m still not sure what it means. Are there any good examples of this confusing local mentality aka attitude?
My biggest problem with Taiwanese companies is lack of vacation time and long working hours. Is that so different than working in the US? How much vacation are you getting now and if you move to Taiwan, you are going to work for an American company right?
The long working hours depends but if they are all working till 9pm you’ll probably have to stick around 7pm everyday, that kind of thing . Not all place are like that, but of course it’s hard to know until you start work.
Taiwan is actually a decent place to live especially if you have a high salary, but the working culture can be hard to get used to. You shouldn’t be as stressed here though, that’s a good point.
Salaries in Taiwan max out at a lower scale, but if you are the typical ABC working in finance maybe your scale is different than ours .
Coming to Taipei you can learn many things. New York is a cosmopolitan city but Taiwan and Asia has a lot of new stuff to keep you entertained for many years.
As your wife is Taiwanese she understands the culture well.
A caveat is that Taiwan has probably changed a bit since she left, depending on when she left.
People here are logical too, but they must fit the local expectations of their culture and boss. It’s a bit arrogant to come here and say the locals do it differently and automatically assume everything they do is wrong and makes no sense.
Basically you should live where you can have lots of good sex, delicious food and a lot to drink. If that is Taiwan then move to Taiwan. If not, then not.
It will be a big change. I think you need to decide if it’s worth it to give up all of your friends, favorite places and things to do for the time that you are here. If you are happy in NYC and you would be giving up a lot I’m not sure it makes sense to move.
You don’t really say enough about the financial aspects of the move. The package is inferior to NYC? Is that just raw dollar amounts or is that adjusted for the massive difference in cost of living. You should be aware that it’s not cheap to lead a western lifestyle in Taipei (or anywhere in Taiwan) but NYC must be extremely expensive even compared to an expensive lifestyle in Taiwan.
Less salary but less expenses. You will probably save more, especially in health costs.
Working environment is a lot less openly agressive than the West, more sneaky, not in your face aggressive. However, I do suspect you will be in a management poisition, and with a little diplomacy and sneakiness on your part, you can use the face saving feature to your advantage and have a lot less trouble and a more pleasant experience. Respect and be respected, don’t sweat the small stuff, … but do micromanage, as people here are used to it. It will be challenging -maybe even interesting.
The Logical Disconnect can be sometime sttributed to different cultural perspectives, what is important/relevant to you will not be for people here. Eventually, you learn to work around it. Think about what is natural to you… and expect in exactly the opposite to happen.
Like bob_honest alluded to, If you’re interested in extramarital sex with beautiful Taiwanese girls, then come to Taiwan. Other than that, I would stay in NY. I’ve never been to NYC, but I imagine the food and entertainment options are infinitely better. I’ve lived a middle to upper middle class lifestyle in both Taiwan and the U.S. Besides the hot girls per capita thing, I like living in America much better. And I liked living in Taiwan as a visitor much better than as an employee
Political instability shouldn’t be an issue at all. There’s always the chance China will invade or bomb us one of these days, but I would feel safer in Taipei than I would NYC. I find pollution here to be unacceptably high (quality of air, water, soil). Not everyone has the same concerns for pollution and opinions vary, but unless you live on the east coast or in the mountains you’ll probably be living in a place most would call at least moderately polluted. Scooters driving down sidewalks, bike trails, through parks, clogging roads and alleys shooting exhaust in everyone’s face all the time is something I’m tired of. Again, some people here actually like it or think it’s a non-issue. I miss American grocery stores sorely. We have Costco here, but even that place is sub-par from the ones back home. If you’re used to NYC’s weather the summers here will be torture. If you’re like me, even while resting in the shade you’ll feel sweat running down your butt crack
If you like going to the gym that will be another adjustment. The gyms here are lower quality. Gym etiquette is not good too. People seldom re-rack weights and will occupy equipment for a half an hour spending 90% of the time on their phone or resting. The idea of sharing equipment in between sets when it’s crowded is a foreign concept to them too. Not everyone at the gym will be like that, but those are some frustrations you’ll have to deal with if you’re a gym goer. Then there’s the whole “chabudao” thing, but that’s a whole other thread.
On a different note, while you might get some good insights about living and working in Taiwan on this forum, you need to be careful. A lot of the regular posters here are long-termers. That means they’re either nuts, drunk, or shipwrecked, or all 3. A lot about mental illness can be learned from crazy people, but you have to keep in mind they’re crazy too. There’s a reason most western expats that come to Taiwan are ready to leave after a year
No. It would not be worth it. Stay in NYC. America is your home now, not Taiwan. If you wife is 100% Americanized like you describe, why force her to live in a country that she/her parents couldn’t stand and left in the first place? Taiwan has enough foreigners bitching about its shortcomings already, we don’t need anymore.
If you’re from NYC, you should have no problem dealing with the levels of pollution here. NYC is certainly no green oasis. Don’t fool yourself. In fact, rush hour in Manhattan seemed worse to me than Taipei. Overall, I also think Taipei is a cleaner city than NYC and I don’t even have to mention Taipei MRT vs NYC subway to come to that conclusion.
If I were you, I’d come. But it really depends how much of a connection you feel towards your former home country. If, say, your parents live in Taiwan, then obviously it’s a no-brainer. That was one reason for me to come back to Taiwan.
No one said that. I did say that it SEEMS that way at first. I didn’t say there was no logic, I said it was different. And it is. Mostly it all has to do with cultural aspects that newbies are unfamiliar with at first. Usually, if people make it in Taiwan long term it’s because they’ve given it long enough to learn WHY everything SEEMS illogical, and even learned to see the sense in things relevant to the local culture they’re learning. But it can be difficult at first.
When I moved to Taiwan the first time, I never did have culture shock. Not for a moment. But then I left and had reverse culture shock, then culture shock again five years later when I returned to Taiwan. I firmly believe that it has everything to do with your attitude and how you feel about why you’re making this move.
