Is marriage just a piece of paper?

Life Dating & Relationships
1

I think this is worth a discussion of its own.

I think Tommy brings in a valid opinion, but I have difficulties agreeing with him. Of course marriage is not just a piece of paper because it’s legally binding. But matters of the heart have nothing to do with legality. A signature on a legal document will not change how you feel about someone 10 years down the line… Or will it? Not for me.

Nowadays people get divorced as often as they get married. Some people get married and get divorced a year later while others date for 20 years without ever getting married. So what is the value of a document stating that two people are actually married? Does someone actually have to sign a paper to vow to a lifetime commitment? Surely not.

I have a lot of respect for people who can make it work years after years, married or not. However, it’s easy to fall for stereotypes… “They have been married for 20 years” just doesn’t have the same ring as “they have been dating for 20 years.” After 20 years, the former seems to refer to a legal commitment and the later refers more to an ongoing and lasting commitment.

I’m sure married folks will be the first to tell me that getting married is more than just a piece of paper to them and that their vows are ongoing and lasting just the same. But of course. So why the need to sign a paper? What difference did it make?

For the record, I am married. Dated 9 years prior to marriage and got married in Taiwan to save my wife the hassle of visa trips out of the country every couple months. No rings, no party, no nothing. We made it to the courthouse, bowed three times as per the local customs, we signed the paper and went on with our day as usual. That was it… And that’s one more reason why I love her so damn much…

M.

[quote=“Tommy 525”]Just my two cents, but I do think being married is not just a piece of paper. It is a commitment to stay together. It should not be entered into lightly and should not be written off lightly either.

Marriage is serious business, and should not be entered into lightly.

There IS a difference whether a couple are BF/GF or actually married. From legal standpoints, from ethical standpoints, from many angles.

It is NOT just a piece of paper. Its your honor and dignity and respect for yourself and other people and your commitment to your union. Its what separates the men from the boys in my view. And the women from the girls.

If you cant live up to it, dont do it. And when you do it, stay together unless one of you are not true anymore. Of course there is no room for anyone in a marriage but the two of you and your children.

If you are adult enough (both parties) then families must be put aside as well.

Marriages between two people who have the most in common are the easiest to maintain, and of course with the blessing of both families are the best too. But life is not always that way, and if you BOTH have the conviction, then you MUST proceed.

There are many many cases of successful unions where one or both set of parents were against it in the beginning. but in many cases they came around.[/quote]

2

No I don’t think it’s just a piece a paper even thought I’ve never been married. I used to but that was before I saw my parents’ marriage during my mom’s crisis with breast cancer. My father could have left. He could have been like this is too much to bear, especially after being diagnosed with cancer during it all. But he never complained. And after it all, he explained that your word is your bond and the vows aren’t just to be fulfilled because of the Church or your upbringing, but because the greatest gift you can give to someone is when you keep and fulfill your word.

just my 2cents.

3

Nama, I think I’d love to meet your folks! I like what Tommy525 said. My marriag was not just a piece of paper. It was a relationship that was alive. A living thing to be cared for or neglected. The piece of paper is like a wedding bad, but with legal aspects. That piece of paper makes it harder to end the arrangment if the relationship dies, and protects a healthy relationship from other legal concerns.

Not having to do with the piece of paper, a marriage is commitment that beyond BF/GF, beyond engagement. A marriage is, or needs to be, about more than feelings, good or bad. You shouldn’t be of a mind that, “Man, I love this woman! I love the way I feel about her, love the way I feel when I’m around her, and I want to be around her forever–I think I’ll marry her!” That feeling is great, but a successfull marriage can’t be bassed on it.

People are dynamic. They change. A marriage is a dynamic relationship that changes. So many marriages fail, in my view, because the marriage partners wake up one day and realize that they have changed, their partner has changed, or that they are just not getting what they thought they wanted any more. They want different things from their marriage than they did in the beginning. It’s that point of view that generally means that a person isn’t mature enought to be married in the first place, the self first approach, that kills the relationship. Of course, we do need what we need. But so does a husband or wife. There have to be times when you get less than you need so that your partner can get more of what they need and vice versa. There have to be times when things aren’t going the way you thought and you have to decide to go another direction.

I lost my marriage. Just could not make it work. My husband was extremely immature in that he always insisted that he get what he wanted or needed from me, and my wants and needs did not count for anything if they conflicted with him getting what he wanted when he wanted it. If he ever felt well enough about things, he was very generous to me. Other times, he used me up, wrung me out, and then despised me for not having any more left in me. When our child was born he resented the time I spent mothering our son, as it ment that he had less direct attention to his own needs. He became very childish to compete with the baby, which I resented very much. At this point, we weren’t married any longer. I was a mother to a baby and a grown man with even less maturity than my months old child.

My husband was not mature enough to handle the changing dynamics of our relationship. Before my son was born, I was able to be flexible, and forgiving, enough to accomadate his immaturity most of the time. When I became a mother, I simply could not continue to cater to my husband’s demands and his refusal to value my needs and the needs of our child as equal or greater than his. There was a fatal conflict between carring for my son and carring for my marriage. Of course, my son won.

The paper was still there, but the respect and commitment were not. And I’m the most stubbornly committed person I think I’ve ever met, especially about marriage. To be brutally honest, the loss of my marriage was more difficult for me than the loss of my loving feelings towards my husband. I really, really, wanted to make it work.

I know this is only my own perspective on my own experience. I hope no one minds it here. I hope it helps someone to avoid the kind of mistakes I made.

4

Is marriage just a piece of paper?

I don’t know. I suppose it depends upon the particular couple that you ask.

[quote=“Joni Mitchell”]
We don’t need no piece of paper
From the city hall
Keeping us tied and true[/quote]

I do think getting married adds something to the commitment… but, I’m not certain what that something is. And I’m not speaking of legalities, either… My wife and I got married first before a district magistrate in the US, and then in a church in Taiwan. We did the magistrate wedding to get her US immigration started and did the church wedding to satisfy my mother. I have no clue as to the location of the legal or church documents evidencing our matrimonial union, and we never registered our marriage here in Taiwan. Neither of us wear any wedding ring. But, we have a boy, and a dog, and a house in Taiwan. The house is in my wife’s name. My money is in my name, here… back home my money is held jointly with my wife. We are working together and hope to have a home in which to retire together when we get old…er.

We’ll have been married for 19 years in April. I like it.

5

I want to marry Tigerman.

My take is that marriage is helpful for things like visas to weird, backward countries like Taiwan where they don’t recognise de facto relationships. It may also make contesting a will a heck of a lot easier, but it doesn’t mean jot regarding the strength of my committment. Mind you, I’m also quite demanding about my relationships and simply refuse to stay on a clearly sinking ship.

HG

6

Pieces of paper can be important, as most of us will attest on reflection. That said, I hope your marriage will be stronger than that. Legal recognition belongs to the rather limited domain of nation-states, which may offer certain protections but are incapable of saving you from messing up your life (or having it messed up by others).

Historically, marriage has been a part of the social structure–a way of linking families, which would then have a vested interest in encouraging the marriage to continue. Today social structures of all sorts are in upheaval, and so are marriages.

The religious or ethical aspect of marriage is partly social, and partly a means of defying social pressures. That is, we set rules against doing things that we would otherwise do (and may do anyway), such as cheat or divorce, and these restrictions are thought to be beneficial in the long term, or for the population as a whole, or in the eyes of God, perhaps.

And then there is the existential dimension, by which I mean the level of the couple themselves, and all their caring and commitment and other emotional bonds. This is the level that gives meaning to all the others, and keeps marriage from being just a job that you can walk away from if you get a better offer.

Marboulette:

I agree, but in the opposite way. I would tend to view the first couple as successful, and the second as a pair of losers.

Huang Guang Chen, what counts as a “de facto” relationship deserving of recognition equal to marriage? Let’s say I’ve been dating somebody for a couple of years. Close enough? Would it help if we lived together? (But how to distinguish a de facto marriage from roomies with benefits?) Must we tell other people that we are “married”? Is monogamy required? Must the relationship be intended as permanent? Must it be sexual in nature? I am confused as to how you would have Taiwan change its laws relating to marriage visas.

7

Screaming J.

Simple enough. In Australia if you have been living with someone, by inference, I guess, in a sexual relationship, then that’s deemed a de facto or common law marriage. The legal recognition is equal to that of a piece of paper from the local courthouse or church. Yes, if you say you have been with someone for a certain period and supply evidence to support that, you can, for example, apply for Australian residency, etc. A friend of mine got his Taiwanese partner residency through their de facto relationship. Her parents had refused to let them marry.

HG

8

The State of Arkansas no longer recognizes common law marriage. I don’t know why exactly, but I think it is because some homosexual couples tried to get their relationship recognized this way, so “they” are trying to block that.

9

Are there any limits on what can count as a “common-law” relationship? For example, what if your friend had more than one Taiwanese girlfriend? Could he have brought them all to Australia?

10

I think the beauty of it is if there are multiple de factos, you can’t get done for bigamy, however, for visa purposes I imagine you just have to pick your pedigree. One only I assume.

HG

11

[quote=“Huang Guang Chen”]I want to marry Tigerman.

[/quote]

Me too. Cause he’s one of a few I haven’t heard complain about marriage. :laughing:

Is it really that bad? I know some of the people I talk to are just natural pusses to begin with. But the more I talk to people, the more I get the distinct feeling they some how regret it. I hope that’s not true.

Please keep my nativity alive and tell me that good marriages exist. :pray:

12

Housecat,

That was a pretty loaded and touching post. I think you made your opinion very clear on the subject… You are not the only one who invests a lot of emotions into the concept of marriage itself. But is it healthy?

Many people fool themselves thinking that a relationship can rid you of pain, sadness or depression. They think they depend on a relationship to “make things right.” It might work short term, but relationships like that rarely work in the long run because it’s the other way around. In reality, it’s the relationship that depends on a certain level of happiness to move forward. It’s putting way too much pressure on a relationship to expect it to “make things right.” Likewise, if you expect a marriage to work based on your idea of what marriage is all about, you’re obliviously stressing your relationship, in my opinion.

How I feel about my wife, about the relationship, is what really matters to me. If either of us felt obligated to make it work just because we are married, I think it would ruin it for us. I’m not in a position to say that this is what happened to your marriage, don’t get me wrong. What I’m saying is that your post, more particularly the above quote, strikes me as a vivid example of the kind of pressure I would not impose on the relationship I have with my wife. That’s how I read it, anyways.

[quote=“Screaming Jesus”]I would tend to view the first couple(married) as successful, and the second(not married) as a pair of losers. [/quote]That’s way too radical, in my opinion. But I would be interested to read why you think that is.

marboulette

13

[quote=“marboulette”]Housecat,

That was a pretty loaded and touching post. I think you made your opinion very clear on the subject… You are not the only one who invests a lot of emotions into the concept of marriage itself. But is it healthy?

Many people fool themselves thinking that a relationship can rid you of pain, sadness or depression. They think they depend on a relationship to “make things right.” It might work short term, but relationships like that rarely work in the long run because it’s the other way around. In reality, it’s the relationship that depends on a certain level of happiness to move forward. It’s putting way too much pressure on a relationship to expect it to “make things right.” Likewise, if you expect a marriage to work based on your idea of what marriage is all about, you’re obliviously stressing your relationship, in my opinion.

How I feel about my wife, about the relationship, is what really matters to me. If either of us felt obligated to make it work just because we are married, I think it would ruin it for us. I’m not in a position to say that this is what happened to your marriage, don’t get me wrong. What I’m saying is that your post, more particularly the above quote, strikes me as a vivid example of the kind of pressure I would not impose on the relationship I have with my wife. That’s how I read it, anyways.

[quote=“Screaming Jesus”]I would tend to view the first couple(married) as successful, and the second(not married) as a pair of losers. [/quote]That’s way too radical, in my opinion. But I would be interested to read why you think that is.

marboulette[/quote]

Well, I agree with most of what you wrote, I think, but I can’t understand what you think I thought the marriage was supposed to make right? I wasn’t looking at marriage to make anything right. I was just stubborn in refusing to cut my losses and move on. I made a mistake, but then kept making it, I guess.

My husband, on the other hand, DID think that marriage was a way to make everything right for him. I was supposed to make sure he was always happy and satisfied. Of course, if he’d felt that way when we met, of he’d been honest about feelings like that, we wouldn’t have married. There were many different problems in both of us that were then problems in our marriage. I was married to this person for seven years, so I can’t exactly condense that for you in a paragraph or two, but trust that it was very complicated. The reasons I listed above were kinda the straws that broke the camel’s back.

In retrospect, do I think my own reasons for marrying him were wrong. Yes. And no matter what it would likely never have been a trully happy and fulfilling marriage. But that doesn’t mean it’s not worth sticking it out for the long haul, especially whith children involved–if you can have a respectful relationship. I don’t believe in subjecting kids to horrific parental fights.

But I will tell you this, because of my experience with him, I do have a lot more respect for arranged marriages than I did before and I believe that they can be some of the strongest and most fulfilling marriages because there are steady and unchanging factors effecting the marriage. Things like the two families that have been joined and the cultural issues that go along with that in cultures where these marriages are common. Love bassed marriages can suffer a whole lot when things cool off and when partners go through their seperate feelings and issues an such. Arranged marriages, unless the guy is a total jerk, can lead to mutual respect and understanding, if not love, and it’s easier when you are gaining respect, than when you’re losing it.

Is it healthy to be so stubborn that you don’t want to leave a resentful frustraiting marriage just cause you don’t want to be divorced? Doesn’t sound healthy and didn’t feel healthy. I’m just not a quitter, man. And you know, leaving a marriage IS different than breaking up with a girlfriend or boyfriend. I had planned to grow old, retire, and die in Taiwan. I still think of Taiwan as home. I’ve had to leave and doubt I can ever go back. I have almost no family in the States and have had to start over from complete zero here, and that’s not easy. I love very much my in-laws who aren’t in-laws any more and are in a terrible position because they believe my husband’s behavior to be shameful and still try to keep their relationship with me, and also, of course with my son–who his father will not have anything to do with–but he is blood. That is important to chinese. There are just all kinds of issues with marriage, or divorce, that non, or less, committed relationships don’t have.

It’s something to think about.

Edit: I forgot to ask if either you or your wife is Chinese. I’ve never met a Chinese person who’s family was not a huge influence in their marriage. Making it work just because you’re married is something that a lot of Chinese do. One of the reason I stayed married for seven years to this person is that there was such enormous familial pressure to work things out.

14

marriage is an eight letter word.

15

[quote=“housecat”]I can’t understand what you think I thought the marriage was supposed to make right? I wasn’t looking at marriage to make anything right. [/quote]I think I was not being very clear. I was just describing two completely separate context where a relationship is put under pressure because of a preconception of what the relationship means to someone. Only one of the two context applied to what you wrote in your post. The part about expecting a relationship to “make things right” was just an example of how a relationship can be stressed if you expect it to be more than what it really is. In other words, you can expect a relationship(married or not) to “make things right” because of the relationship itself, but it rarely will. The same as you can expect a marriage to work because of the marriage itself, but that doesn’t work either. It’s unnecessary pressure for something to be more than what it actually is. It’s consistent with my opinion that marriage is little more than a legally binding piece of paper that has little to do with the health of my relationship. And I would feel pressured to make it work if I looked at it otherwise.

[quote]But that doesn’t mean it’s not worth sticking it out for the long haul, especially whith children involved…[/quote]Children do complicate relationships… They always do…

[quote]I’m just not a quitter, man.[/quote]You sure sound like you gave it your best shot. My respect for that.

[quote]I had planned to grow old, retire, and die in Taiwan. I still think of Taiwan as home. I’ve had to leave and doubt I can ever go back. I have almost no family in the States and have had to start over from complete zero here, and that’s not easy… …There are just all kinds of issues with marriage, or divorce, that non, or less, committed relationships don’t have.[/quote]I agree. You sound sad, there… Just remember that plans change, but goals fail. Try not to worry about what you had planned in the past. Just make new and even more exciting plans. I’m sure you grew a lot out of this and you should only be more prepared to execute your plans now.

[quote]Edit: I forgot to ask if either you or your wife is Chinese. [/quote]My wife is from Saskatchewan, where the best women come from. :wink: I’m also from Canada.

It’s nice talking to you, housecat. :slight_smile:

marboulette

16

[quote=“marboulette”]It’s nice talking to you, housecat. :slight_smile:

marboulette[/quote]

Well, thanks. I guess I’m probably a little open with this personal stuff on here lately. Some of what I said earlier is sad, hard, stuff. But I’m over it now :slight_smile: . It’s been a very hard time with that new goal making stuff, but my son and I are both much better off now. And I’ve come through very hard sh1t before this.

I just hope that someone will read and learn, so I share.

17

Marriage would be a wonderful, boundless ideal, were it not for the boundful realms of zealous expectations.
Practicality is much more versatile than romance,

“When two people are under the influence of the most violent, most insane, most delusive, and most transient of passions,
they are required to swear that they will remain in that excited, abnormal and exhausting condition until death do them part.”
GEORGE BERNARD SHAW

18

[quote=“housecat”]Some of what I said earlier is sad, hard, stuff. [/quote]It’s quite alright. Beats that phony shite I find myself reading too often on the web these days hands down…

marboulette

19

[quote=“TheGingerMan”]Marriage would be a wonderful, boundless ideal, were it not for the boundful realms of zealous expectations.
Practicality is much more versatile than romance,

“When two people are under the influence of the most violent, most insane, most delusive, and most transient of passions,
they are required to swear that they will remain in that excited, abnormal and exhausting condition until death do them part.”
GEORGE BERNARD SHAW[/quote]

Okay, so taking the practical approach, do I get to shag around?

HG

20

Namahottie, I count myself as one of the happily married. My colleague (who belongs firmly to the marriage-resistant camp) observes that all of his married friends regret having gotten married, and notes that since I’ve only been hitched a couple of years, I’m not yet much of a counterexample. Of course you never know what surprises the future may have in store, though we’ve been very pro-active about it, doing everything we can think of that we can and ought. So ask me again in fifty years!

Yes, the Mrs. is Chinese, and yes, her family are a big part of her lives. Back when we were dating, this kind of grated on me. But now I’m part of the family too, and it’s just the way things are. My impression is that these sorts of ties are good for marriages, and wish somebody would do actual research into (for example) whether regular contact with spouse’s family is a negative predictor of divorce, as I suspect.

Marboulette (on being married for 20 years, vs. living together for 20 years), I suppose I am laboring under the assumption that marriage is the natural goal of a relationship. Not that every relationship ought to end in marriage, of course, but that marriage represents the ideal toward which “lesser” relationships strive. When I hear that a couple has been married for 20 years, I think of the positive qualities which must have allowed them to do this (though for all I know, the relationship might be pathological in nature). And when I hear that a couple has lived together for 20 years, this makes me wonder what sort of shortcomings have prevented them from fully committing to one another, or else pulling out of this dead-end relationship and doing something better with their lives. (The fact that living together for 20 years would require many of the same skills as being married for 20 years, would to my mind be overshadowed by this more basic flaw.)

Obviously this would not apply to gays, and I am unable to formulate what sort of model a “healthy gay relationship” ought to follow. In fact, I lean towards the Church’s argument that the ideal is strictly heterosexual, though I don’t propose to try to convert gays into straights, or for that matter, telling anybody else except my kids (should I be so fortunate) how to live their lives. Of course that would apply to our 20-year f___ buddies, and if the topic came up in real life I’m sure I would just smile and wish them a happy anniversary.