[quote=“Maoman”]
A little off-topic, but when you’re a parent, you’ll start looking at the backs of boxes a little more carefully. There’s so much crap being put into fruits, vegetables, meat, and eggs, that I don’t think paying a little extra is nonsense, especially when the health and development of a baby is at stake.[/quote]
Organic food exists because the upper classes wish to balance liberal idealism and self-interest.
Along Maoman’s line, ever looked into farming practises in this country? Not the nice clean country you come from where there are proper zoning laws that prohibit a factory from being built beside a rice field and from dumping waste water into irrigation ditches, but this country? Didn’t think so. 
Even Wang You Ching had his own organic garden. Smart man seeing as how his industries polluted so much of the west coast. Double
Don’t comprimise on health. In the long run you always pay more.
I find that sneering reply rather crass. What’s nonsense about wanting to eat foods that were raised without chemical pesticides and fertilizers? I’m not one of those who insists on organic everything, because it’s inconvenient and expensive, but I certainly understand the rationale behind it.
I find that sneering reply rather crass. What’s nonsense about wanting to eat foods that were raised without chemical pesticides and fertilizers? I’m not one of those who insists on organic everything, because it’s inconvenient and expensive, but I certainly understand the rationale behind it.[/quote]
Can either of you explain your need to use such a rude tone with me?
I find that sneering reply rather crass. What’s nonsense about wanting to eat foods that were raised without chemical pesticides and fertilizers? I’m not one of those who insists on organic everything, because it’s inconvenient and expensive, but I certainly understand the rationale behind it.[/quote]
Can either of you explain your need to use such a rude tone with me?[/quote]
Call me a bobo, and my well-informed and rational choices nonsense (choices which btw apply to Taiwan and not universally - I will buy non-organic produce from NZ, for example) and I will take a slightly snarky attitude back. Get over it.
And for this statement I think we both let you off lightly:
Organic farming is gaining not only because of health, water and soil concerns but also because modern argiculture relies on cheap oil and massive subsidies neither of which are sustainable.
But again, eating organic in Taiwan and eating it back home are two different things. Here it is vital to know how things are grown and where because of past and present industrial practices that were completely unregulated in what should have been exclusively agricultural zones.
Where do you get your opinions: National Review editorials?
I’m the bad guy.
I’ve never heard of anyone rallying against organic food. You’ve got to dig deeper than that to stoke the fire in your belly, surely.
[quote=“Mucha Man”]
Call me a bobo, and my well-informed and rational choices nonsense (choices which btw apply to Taiwan and not universally - I will buy non-organic produce from NZ, for example) and I will take a slightly snarky attitude back. Get over it.[/quote]
I wasn’t calling you a bobo. If anything I suppose you are in the conspicuous consumer bracket. In my mind I was applauding your efforts to reduce your spending. I didn’t know you’d see it as an insult.
[quote=“Muzhaman”]And for this statement I think we both let you off lightly:
Organic farming is gaining not only because of health, water and soil concerns but also because modern argiculture relies on cheap oil and massive subsidies neither of which are sustainable.
But again, eating organic in Taiwan and eating it back home are two different things. Here it is vital to know how things are grown and where because of past and present industrial practices that were completely unregulated in what should have been exclusively agricultural zones.
Where do you get your opinions: National Review editorials?[/quote]
Again with the snippy snippy.
I don’t believe that the organic food industry is run any differently to any other industry on earth. I also see little evidence of what is fundamentally better or worse between your average hole in the floor spud and one that is organic. One meets a set of requirements another doesn’t. And if we are talking about the non-organic one being sprayed mercilessly with chemicals, and the organic ones being tickled from the purest of soils by the kindest of hands? It isn’t like that in either case. Marketing companies tell us these products are earthy, or healthy. I see nothing to prove this. I see another industry taking coin from the consumer for their own ends, and in many cases you would do well to stop endorsing their marketing spin. What makes beef organic? What is the actual percentage of carcenogenic poisons in a normal vegetable and in an organic one? Buying ethical produce is a worthy cause. I don’t think organic is either a worthy or healthy choice. But I may be wrong.
[quote=“mike_rophonechecker”][quote=“Muzha Man”]
Call me a bobo, and my well-informed and rational choices nonsense (choices which btw apply to Taiwan and not universally - I will buy non-organic produce from NZ, for example) and I will take a slightly snarky attitude back. Get over it.[/quote]
I wasn’t calling you a bobo. If anything I suppose you are in the conspicuous consumer bracket. In my mind I was applauding your efforts to reduce your spending. I didn’t know you’d see it as an insult.
[quote=“Muzhaman”]And for this statement I think we both let you off lightly:
Organic farming is gaining not only because of health, water and soil concerns but also because modern argiculture relies on cheap oil and massive subsidies neither of which are sustainable.
But again, eating organic in Taiwan and eating it back home are two different things. Here it is vital to know how things are grown and where because of past and present industrial practices that were completely unregulated in what should have been exclusively agricultural zones.
Where do you get your opinions: National Review editorials?[/quote]
Again with the snippy snippy.
I don’t believe that the organic food industry is run any differently to any other industry on earth. I also see little evidence of what is fundamentally better or worse between your average hole in the floor spud and one that is organic. One meets a set of requirements another doesn’t. And if we are talking about the non-organic one being sprayed mercilessly with chemicals, and the organic ones being tickled from the purest of soils by the kindest of hands? It isn’t like that in either case. Marketing companies tell us these products are earthy, or healthy. I see nothing to prove this. I see another industry taking coin from the consumer for their own ends, and in many cases you would do well to stop endorsing their marketing spin. What makes beef organic? What is the actual percentage of carcenogenic poisons in a normal vegetable and in an organic one? Buying ethical produce is a worthy cause. I don’t think organic is either a worthy or healthy choice. But I may be wrong.[/quote]
You are wrong. But it doesn’t matter until you realize that I am talking about eating produce grown in Taiwan and not anywhere else. You would probably make this same argument if you lived near Chernobyl. “What makes the produce here any worse than anywhere else? I see nothing wrong with it.”
And no, I am not in the conspicuous consumer bracket and made the poin that I was not cutting out organic produce. I make a living as a travel writer which should give you some idea of my bracket. I just have followed food safety issue here for many years and make informed decisions even if they cost me money.
I’d be happy to explain the bluntness of my response, although certainly I don’t accept the charge of ‘rude’. You called organic ‘nonsense’ (“that organic nonsense”), as if all people who want to avoid chemicals and go for natural food are somehow idiots.
You paint it with a broad brush, without any intelligent discrimination or refinement. So crude and unrefined as to be lacking in discrimination and sensibility. That’s straight from the dictionary definition of the word ‘crass’. That’s not rude, it’s just a descriptive characterization of the content of your response, IMO. You’re free to disagree, but I won’t be going back and forth with you on it any further; that’s just a waste of time.
By way of explaining, I found your dismissal of the goal of organic food to be, initially, harsh and lacking in refinement. Frankly, it smacked of mindless GOP eco-bashing. Others responded to your post in the same way, so you should take a look at your own posting style or at least that particular post for your answers. If you don’t want to be perceived that way and responded to accordingly, then you might want to consider refining your message.
Basically, if you have a more subtle and intelligent point to make, then why not try making it more subtly and intelligently? If you want to thinkingly question ‘organic’, and ask whether it’s really better, fine. (You didn’t do that – you just bashed the whole idea of organic.) If you want to challenge the commercial label of ‘organic’, and ask in an intelligent manner what it means, and whether it isn’t in fact sometimes just hype to justify a higher price, I’m all ears. I have the same suspicions, that it may sometimes be as much marketing as reality. But it is also very likely that chemicals and hormones in the food supply are harming us. Look at the melamine that they’re now finding in eggs and plants and meats from the PRC. Would I rather eat eggs without melamine in them? You bet!
So if you suspect that organic is sometimes hype to raise the price, such a point can be raised with sensibility. It can be raised in an intelligently discriminating manner. You took a better stab at that with your subsequent post in which you wrote “I don’t believe that the organic food industry is run any differently to any other industry on earth.” Had your initial post been more like that one, I probably wouldn’t have been as blunt in my response. So, you live and learn. 
I want to ask you guys…are those eggs you buy at places with the E sticker on it really organic? There are two brands out there (if you can call it a brand…) that says it’s organic. I buy it, hoping that the mommies actually weren’t in tiny cages when they pushed them out.
its so hard to trust anything here …any idea?
Organic is wayyy expensive yes…I’m very lucky I don’t buy meat or chicken!
Organic will refer to what they were fed, not where they were kept, so it’s entirely possible they were pushed out in a tiny cage.
If you’re interested, my wife has started getting “tu-ji” eggs – eggs from free range chickens. They’re very very good, but not very cheap and they’re tiny, like bantam eggs. If you want, I can find out where she gets them. I don’t know about them being organic though. Its taste I go for.
i will spend more here for organic stuff as it tastes better and i am more willing these days to trust the organic labels.
the eggs, especially, are real eggs: strong shells, proud yolks, and great flavour. and especially good to bake with: the short pastry especially is much more successful.
[quote=“urodacus”]i will spend more here for organic stuff as it tastes better and I am more willing these days to trust the organic labels.
the eggs, especially, are real eggs: strong shells, proud yolks, and great flavour. and especially good to bake with: the short pastry especially is much more successful.[/quote]
No! No! Come back from the light. Come dine with us from the ugly vegetables.
Unless the eggs are from a local farmer the ones in the supermarkets claiming to be free range aren’t produced in the conditions you might be imagining.
that depends on where you shop.
it is easy to tell a good egg from a bad one.
Organic labeling in Taiwan is not yet regulated as it is in most European countries therefor organic in Taiwan is for me not really believable, except when the products are imported from a European country, and even then I don’t know if the regulation in Europe goes for export labeling of ‘organic’ products …
The one thing I know, and it’s proven through research, is that organic eggs from free range chickens have a much higher incidence of salmonella cases … BTW, organic eggs in Europe can come from chickens that are held indoors, in huge warehouse style buildings where they can roam freely … organic, ha!
A flame war so fast, sheesh.
Organic food is a choice, which I’m ok with since I believe in choice in most things. Problem I have with organic is labeling and standards. Organic, to me, means no unnatural pesticides, fertilizers nor herbicides. Neem oil good, roundup bad. Some farmers and guidelines don’t see it that way however. I’m also a proponent of industrial farming practices, since I’m real keen on cheap food for those who want it. Another reason I’m a big fan of brands, Tyson is not going to screw up to save a few bucks if it means bankrupting the company. Since branding is still in the mid to early stages in Taiwan, we don’t have as much assurance.
Would I buy organic produce from a farmer I knew? Sure. Would I buy it from a store with a label that said organic, probably not. Please don’t all preachy on me now because I do read the National Review.
In the UK, I used to get weekly vegeboxes from a local farm. The Soil Association does have very strict standards, so most organic food in the UK does end up a bit pricier than the other stuff. But the vegeboxes were a good deal. And the contents certainly tasted a lot better than most non-organic veg.
I also really preferred free-range eggs to battery ones. (Organic too, when possible.) Again, they tasted a lot better.
Mike, I am still trying to figure out what makes you so emotional about organic food of all things.
I think there are only a few informed people who would argue that organic food (that meets all the necessary criteria to qualify, whatever those criteria might be) is not better than non-organic food.
Now, if you are saying that not all food in Taiwan that is labeled organic is “really organic”, you are probably right. Can’t imagine that there are strict controls on farms or in markets here.
If you are saying that it’s not worth spending more money on “true organic” food instead of buying conventionally produced food, now that’s really tough to determine. Health wise, you’ll never be able to tell what causes your cancer, taste wise, it depends on how much you value a good-tasting meal.
I personally think that the difference organic food makes in terms of well-being is not that great. I think the air you breathe and the water you drink are more important. I know smokers who swear that organic food is the way to go :loco: . On the other hand, there is nothing with trying to reduce the amount of toxins accumulating in your body.
It’s easier to see the ‘organic food’ crew as a bunch of ****s in the UK, because they usually are. Google ‘Jamie Oliver’ for information. I detest them and their ilk. Kind of like mike_ says; self-preserving middle-class oiks with no brains and grey faces. I have to remind myself that people have the right to make whicheever consumer choices they wish, however much I want to trip trip these people up on the bus, and force feed them like foie gras geese with Wotsits (For our non British brethren, ‘Wotsits’ are a cheesy snack akin to Cheetos, only lighter, puffed through with the delicious democratic air of personal choice). The same ‘health freaks’ who drive a car everywhere, and gorge themselves on ‘fairtrade’ Pinot Grigio.
Britain is no longer the land of William Blake.
It’s more understandable that people are weird about it in Taiwan: things are regulated less, people have ‘melamine’-style corruption in thee back of their minds, run-off from pig-farms, etc. They don’t have a relatively short lifespan in Taiwan for no reason.
I’ve a suggestion. Can everyone stop calling food, organic food for heavens sakes. It’s food! Other stuff is growth assisted or engineered food.
I believe the focus on organic is somehow in the wrong place. Why isn’t the focus on some of the the crap they shovel through supermarkets and wherever the hell it comes from?
I’m guilty of buying stuff from heavens knows where, but I try to purchase food whenever I can. I was amazed at the vast majority of stuff that I can’t put in my trolley just going around most supermarkets.