I would certainly agree that this would be a far superior alternative to the current system of blacklisting. It seems to me that schools need some sort of protection from those minority of teachers that do the wrong thing, and if the organization that Feiren proposes could help in bringing this minority into line then the problem is solved without the need for blacklisting. Having the process in the hands of the people the process most affects has obvious advantages. Until such a time that such an organization is up and active I can’t see what else schools can do to protect themselves so I guess that the blacklist will remain for at least the near future. Let’s hope that Feirens idea receives the support it requires and something finally happens in that regard.
Is he sidestepping the ethical issues, or does he just have a better understanding than yourself. You go to almost any western country where you do not have automatic residency and work rights, and check to see if the situation is actually any different. You quit your employment your employer can and should notify the relevant authorities to advise them of your quitting. Those authorities are then most likely to deport that person, and i have no doubt, that blacklists exist in many countries.
As Brian notes, it is the CLA in the case of Taiwan that finally controls the destiny of teachers on this issue, not the employer.
[quote=“brian”]
I would certainly agree that this would be a far superior alternative to the current system of blacklisting. It seems to me that schools need some sort of protection from those minority of teachers that do the wrong thing[/quote]
The right not to work is a basic human right. If an employee does not fufill her contractual or legal obligations by not giving sufficient notice, the employer can sue the employee just like the employee can sue the employer for the same thing. In other words, the Employment Services law already offers employers and employees limited protection. But the ability to report a foreign employee to the CLA gives employers too much leverage over their foreign employees.
Also, here is Article 56 of the Employment Services Act.
受聘僱之外國人有連續曠職三日失去聯繫或聘僱關係終止之情事，雇主應於三日內以書面通知當地主管機關及警察機關。
I can see here that the employer has to report missing workers to the CLA. But where does the law authorize the CLA to then ban the employee from applying for work again?
[quote=“Feiren”]Also, here is Article 56 of the Employment Services Act.
受聘僱之外國人有連續曠職三日失去聯繫或聘僱關係終止之情事，雇主應於三日內以書面通知當地主管機關及警察機關。
I can see here that the employer has to report missing workers to the CLA. But where does the law authorize the CLA to then ban the employee from applying for work again?[/quote]
It doesn’t … it’s just another example of a government agency broadly interpreting the law. And they can do this until someone is willing to submit a test case to see if this law holds up in the courts … and most people aren’t willing to go to the trouble (plus time and monetary costs) to put forth a test case and test the legality of said agency’s interpretation of a law.
Hence the need for an organization that would be able to do those things.
I agree! But people have been mentioning this for years, and no one has come forward to do it. Who has the time and ability to deal with the hassles of organizing something like this, running back and forth between government agencies to make it legal, run the day to day affairs, and not go personally bankrupt in the meantime? Where would the funding for all of this come from? We do have some lawyers on here, but do they have the time to donate their services for free? Hartzell is busy with his own projects. This would be a big project, and I don’t see how it could get accomplished unless someone qualified to do it (obviously “Boomer” AKA “EOD” isn’t) steps forward and takes the initiative. :s
I know this is an old thread but I believe that if a teacher leaves a job for what ever reason, end of contract, fired etc then they have to sign a termination of contract which explains why the contract is terminated. If you agree then you sign. You get a copy the Bushiban gets a copy and away you go.
If you have been fired because you were absent without leave then it will be stated. If you disagree you refuse to sign and put your case forward. To be blacklisted you have either completely left without signing or you have agreed that you were a bad boy and deserve to have your arse kicked.
[quote]but I am yet to see a legitimate reason why it is so terrible. Possible abuse of the system aside.
[/quote]
Rather easily you toss “aside” the most legitimate reason to fight against this list.
This is Asia, remember? Do you honestly believe that such a small percentage of employers out there would break the rules? If so you need to pull your head out of …the sand.
I agree with most of the cynics that have posted before, this, imo, was lobbied for most strongly by the employers who would be most likely to abuse it.
In fact I am glad I have come across this forum as it’s shown me that I do not want to teach in Taiwan. If I want to deal with all this petty, spiteful, bullshit I’ll return to Canada. I came to Asia to escape the “oh we have a government job where we make up stupid rules and laws all day so let’s not get caught slacking off” mentality, but it seems that Taiwan is becoming a little to “western” for my tastes. The worse part is, as someone said earlier in this topic, the TW gov don’t even really know what their doing, they just follow the lead of the idiots in the “real west”.
Well on to other countries as my possible next destination. I’ll leave Taiwan in y’alls capable hands. :loco:
I’ll put this first as this was the most sensible part of your post. Your post hasn’t shown any understanding of Taiwan, and judging by your post you have never even taught here, or possibly even been here, so we will take your comments with a grain of salt.
My post does not toss it aside. These concerns were raised but as no one has any first hand accounts of where the current blacklist system has been abused I merely acknowledged those concerns and was asking for any other reasons that a blacklist or some other form of regulation against teachers who break contracts shouldn’t be enacted.
And do you believe that there aren’t teachers out there who shouldn’t be blacklisted or be subjected to some form of penalty if another system was brought in instead of blacklisting? I think that it is you who needs to pull his head out of the sand if you think that it is us (the foreign teachers) against them (the schools). In my opinion, it is the wronged against the wrong - regardless of which is the teacher and which is the school.
You have missed a major point of the discussion, and a point that was addressed on a number of occasions. This indicates that you didn’t really read the thread as you already had a preconceived idea that the teacher is always right and that schools are the enemy. I don’t subscribe to this.
The employers cannot and do not blacklist teachers. The CLA, a third party, and a government department, chooses whether or not to put a mark against a teachers name. So all in all yes I do believe that any abuse of the system would be a minority situation, and even in these cases the CLA have a proven track record of being accepting of the mediation process which would come about as a result of an appeal.
What do you base your claims upon? Or are you just one of those ‘anti-government’ types?
Why? How? Based upon what evidence?
If as you suggest, the employers lobbied for this list, then why is it that the majority of them do not even know that the list exists. I am yet to meet a school owner that is aware of this list, other than those that have read this thread on forumosa.
The fact is that it wasn’t due to lobbying by schools that the blacklists have now resurfaced. They have always been there, and have always been used against our foreign counterparts in the blue collar industries. Now that the CLA are solely in control of the employment of foreign teachers in Taiwan, they have no doubt decided to enforce the rules for us in the same way that they have for the blue collar workers.
What evidence do you have to back up your claim that the schools lobbied for this?
Of course you are entitled to your opinion but it doesn’t really count for much unless you support it. So what’s your basis of making this claim and supporting these other posters. Do you live in Taiwan? Have you ever lived in Taiwan? Do you teach in Taiwan? Have you ever had dealings with a government department in Taiwan - namely the CLA? Have you ever lodged an appeal with the CLA and if so what was the outcome?
My answer to the above is ‘Yes’ in each case, so when I post I am posting from personal experience. So what do you base your opinion on.
This is just plain ignorance.
Governments have a job to regulate. They have a responsibility to their citizens. If foreign nationals (visitors) in this country breach the terms of the reason for them to work here then there may be repercussions. If these individuals do things the right way then there is nothing to fear. If however they throw caution to the wind and just up and leave a job then they may need to accept the repercussions of doing so.
Quite honestly it might be best for all involved if you do choose to give Taiwan a miss, as it seems highly likely that you could be the sort of person who has a big enough chip upon his shoulder to get himself into trouble in Taiwan.
Finally, I should reiterate my earlier sentiments. I am not in favor of the blacklist per se, and I see no real reason for blacklisting to be a permanent thing. I believe that employers have the right to take action against teachers who run away without notice in order to avoid the responsibilities that they agreed to under their employment contract. The sooner we each as individuals do the right thing, the sooner the day will come when blacklists will become redundant. This should really be our aim. Rather than try to discredit the blacklist based upon possibilities and theories, why not encourage teachers to avoid putting themselves in a situation whereby they might be affected by the blacklist.
Recently, I heard from someone affiliated with a well-known cram school chain that a blacklist of sorts does exist. It’s not through the CLA or any other official agency. This blacklist exists on a private blackboard run by the bushibans. When a bushiban wants to hire someone, they just look on the blackboard to see if the potential teacher’s name is there. If it is, then it’s a no hire.
Has anyone heard of something similiar?
I have a hard time believing that any buxibans would ever get together to create something that helps them all. Maybe the buxiban associations…but the buxiban association in Kaohsiung doesn’t do anything other than to ask for their $5000 yearly membership fee. I for one would love to see a blacklist managed by the schools. If there is one that I don’t know about, please let me know!
We operate a blacklist for schools, I don’t find it hard to believe the schools might do the same.
When I was talking to the CLA, they specifically said that there was no blacklist at all. In the forums, I constantly here of people getting blacklisted. What’s the truth or why is there a contradiction?
The blacklist is not a list as such so perhaps that is the reason for the confusion.
Basically being blacklisted means that the CLA marks a mark against your name such that any future applications for work permits get refused. Your name is not actually added to a list.
Perhaps another reason that you were told what you were told was that the person you were speaking with did not know what he or she was talking about. That is not unusual here in Taiwan.
Call them back again and ask them whether you can get a new work permit in the future if you run away from your current employer without giving notice.
My advice is play by the rules in this regard as teachers who have been blacklisted (I personally know of one) tend to regret the repercussions of that.
Wasn’t there a private blacklist maintained by a loose consortium of buxibans? I thought there was a link to it some time ago (maybe a year or two)…?? But it is certainly not official or governmental in nature.
Would you happen to know the link or where I could find it?
one question…does this also apply to non-teaching jobs? if i was to mysteriously diasppear into the jungles of burma over CNY and then come back to Taiwan 2 months later would it prevent me getting a new job and ARC?
(just idle speculation mind…i love my job [in case the boss is reading])
The buxiban association used to have a message board on its website not unlike this one where schools could post comments about teachers that they felt were problematic. The list quickly became outdated however and didn’t seem to serve any real useful purpose as it did not exactly contain quality information.
I would not be surprised if some schools, particularly branches within chain schools, may share information about bad teachers, but I am not aware of anything formal in that regard.
As far as the reach of blacklisting outside of teaching my best guess is that there is no reason why it would not apply to non-teachers.
A question that I have been unable to answer is whether a teacher who gets blacklisted can apply for a work permit to other approved work in Taiwan after having been blacklisted from teaching, or whether the blacklisting applies to all future work permit applications.
The buxiban association list was a poor one. Most buxiban owners never went near the site anyway. What used to bug me was the letters that were sent out, mostly from a certain school in Southern Taiwan, listing the names of certain ‘runaway’ teachers and advising schools not to hire them or turn them over.
Was that the same school that got sued by those two foreign teachers who had their pictures and personal information posted in one of the English language newspapers a while back as being ‘undesirables’?