Is traffic the worst part of Taiwan's lingering third worldism?

Have you ever seen a bunch of left-turning scooters waiting at the red light… at the far right of all the scooters waiting for the light? (It’s rhetorical if you live in Taichung, where you can’t help but see it daily.)

Here, just for example, about ten scooters and a handsome cyclist coming up to a red light:

Why haven’t the left-turners aligned themselves to the left? Because there’s genuinely zero consideration given for more than a meter in front - and even less consideration than that for anything to the side or behind. The driver in your example, lunlun, probably has no idea that there’s a red light one or two dozen meters ahead.

They have never been taught to drive properly, they’ve developed shitty, dangerous habits, and instead of correcting those dangerous habits with affordable but mildly-annoying fines, we (as a country) are allowing them to continue to drive dangerously until someone is seriously injured or killed, the driver’s license is revoked… and they just continue to drive regardless. :roll_eyes:

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A YouTuber actually made a video about that whole area…he drives through the white/green plate motorcycle route then goes and drives the regular route since he’s on a red plate. At one spot there were 38 scooter accidents in 3 months…

In the video he also points out something…the barriers are actually pretty dangerous, deadly even. They have gaps so if you hit the end of the barrier you could die if you are a motorcycle and in a car that’s a lot more dangerous as a lot more energy is being sent into the car towards you…and even on the section for cars if you are riding a red/orange plate it also means you could be sent down into the motorcycle road below and hit or be hit other motorcyclists.

There’s even a two stage right turn.


Here’s another video this YouTuber did, with a girl who had her leg amputed due to the damage she received from getting her leg caught up in one of these awful “barriers” when the scooter she was on crashed. This is next to the Taoyuan airport…disgusting barrier “design”.


Have you seen this one in Waipu? First time I saw this I was really perplexed. You have to do a two stage turn, but it is sooooooo far away that if someone reporting you for driving against traffic I wouldn’t be surprised if it was successful. Also some people will take the turn lane to go to the two stage box because it is way closer…well if traffic traveling east and west have green lights…obviously super dangerous as you are just driving into traffic.


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Sometimes in the news you see people on this road, the 132, accidentally turn off the road…which takes you up to the highway in some spots and have to stop and call the police so they can get off without getting in trouble.

At least here they let you go straight.

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The two step turns are a city thing. I did a loop from Kaohsiung to Taichung and back once, and the more rural roads are great, but I really recommend the phone mount.

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It’s another annoying thing that’s dangerous and stupid and really common here. I think it’s as simple as not planning ahead

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Surprisingly haven’t gotten lost yet, even for 2+ hr trips by myself! Seriously, getting the open road to yourself and no shitty drivers near you and sometimes get another cool driver or rider and you both just kind of cruise through the hills or mountain roads…I totally get why people fall in love with motorcycles. Unfortunately just so many bad and…to put it nicely idiotic road users here.

Phone mount would definately be useful though. I might get one next month, just for the convenience of the occasional navigation to places in the city I’m not used to and eventual longer distance trips.

It’s mostly the getting out of town part that worries/annoys me haha.

Also for some awkward spots like this where google would tell you to make a direct left turn, but that’s not allowed since there is a “motorcycles banned” written on the inner lane and there is no two-stage turn for motorcycles so have to find some awkward way around that takes quite a bit longer.

For some spots I think it can also be people expecting to be a two stage turn, but there isn’t one. People have been conditioned that far right is the safest and dangerous drivers in cars constantly try to run over scooters in the regular lanes so it kind of becomes a whole mess. Oh yeah, also the banning of motorcycles in the inner lanes on many “regular” sized roads…even in places with slow speed limits like 40.

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In Chiayi a car making an illegal left turn by cutting across double yellows in front of a scooter has caused the death of a 20 year student. As the car cut across the scooter braked hard but still crashed and the passenger got knocked off into the oncoming traffic lane where a delivery truck was coming down the road and had no time to react. The delivery truck driver stopped as soon as possible but still ended up hitting and killing the 20 year old scooter passenger.


This was my thoughts on the incident as well. Also when that incident happened it had been raining around Taiwan for a bit so maybe the roads were still a little wet…not sure how much that would the outcome though.

A Taiwanese YouTuber actually went over to this intersection in person to examine it and propose design changes that would make it safer for road users and also be better for pedestrians.


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It’s Taichung… Shortcuts just result in smaller road but same 1.5-2 min lights :face_exhaling:

Potentially possible, but at this point… Eh. Just deal with it. The big problem is the MRT road. Gotta go along that, to go most efficiently, but it’s got an island in the middle and is all turn boxed. And the roads that lead up there, the bigger ones at least, all super busy in the morning to the point where the turn box is sometimes the quicker option.

Considered it, but not worth the time to try and figure out the fastest route.

To me that’s the part I enjoy. Getting out of the city, away from all the traffic and intersections, is wonderful. Mountain roads have their hazards (啊伯 driving 小貨車 to name one :rofl:) but the sights and the ride are wonderful.

Not to stray too far off topic, what scoot did you pick up? If u ever want to go for a ride somewhere I’m down :grin: bring together the Taichung riders club!

To quote the doors, “Take it as it comes / specialize in having fun” :rofl:

Don’t worry too much. You’ll get a feel for which intersections need hook turning and not. The signs help, when you can see them amidst all the other shit on the side of the road.

And to quote Ricky Bobby, “if you’re not first, you’re last!”

Had this happen today. Dude driving a Subaru flys by me and comes to a stop at the same red light I do, which was already red, and in the scooter box. So when I pull up, I remind him that he should park behind the box, which - in a surprising act of humility or embarrassment - he goes into reverse to do, despite cars behind him, and the the light turned green :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Lost it at that. What a class act.

I’ve rode up that whole area, there was a girl I was dating up in Dajia and after she went home, I’d go ride around there. It’s incredibly messy, there are intersections about every five feet without traffic controls, and intersections are weird at times. Big caution area.

The bridge from 清水 to 大甲 however is a great place to go late at night and check what the top speed of your ride is… Not that I’d ever recommend that.

@lunlan can also get a phone charger to go with it for that proper touring convenience :grin: it’s a cheap and easy install if you take it to any mechanic.

And yeah, the hook turns do generally become less the further you stray from “civilization”. Not that I’d consider Taichung city to have much of that…

One further quality of life and, imo, basic safety choice is earplugs. Bikes are loud, hearing doesn’t come back. Make a habit of doing consistent shoulder checks. You’ll ride better than most locals and save your hearing in the process.

Incidentally, I assume this is one contributing factor to conversation volume here.

Are you sure you’re using the motorcycle option on Google? Recommend using on your phone. Computer doesn’t have sometimes. The motorcycle one knows pretty well what is accessible and inaccessible to white plate bikes.

If they ever fully remove the two stage turns, 1) it will be absolute pandemonium and 2) they will continue being used despite not existing. No doubt. Scooter deaths will jump by a million in a month too.

One day when I get properly good at Chinese I shall make such videos :triumph::triumph::triumph:

And understand them :rofl::rofl::rofl:

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I decided to get a SYM Jet SL. Had a few friends/acquaintances with Jet SR or Jet SL scooters and they all really like their scooters and had pretty good experience oveall and also had a couple friends that this year also bought a Jet SL and a Jet SR (also got their licenses this year as well) so one friend let me try his SL. Felt really comfortable in the short little ride he let me have in an empty parking lot. To be honest I was already a bit interested in a Jet anyways since I just see so many people around where I live riding Jets.

To me ABS was a non-negotiable feature. The way I see it all it has to do is save me from a spill once and it already pays for itself .

For now I mostly just prefer to drive by myself and mostly just for commutes and occasional hikes in maybe Guguan area or wherever else I end up going (although sometimes I still take the bus so I can sleep on the way up or back) or visiting friends in Dajia, Qingshui, Dakeng area etc. Or I’ll just drive separately from friends and we’ll just agree to meet up someplace.

Yeah it’s fun that’s for sure. Riding up to Guguan on a nice day and having a relaxing ride
on the way back is a pretty nice.

Ah yeah I know exactly where you’re talking about. I’ve been on that bridge. Fun little spot that actually has a faster speed limit for once.

I do shoulder check every time I change lanes or turn. Habit from driving cars and it being drilled into me by my instructor. Just a natural part of driving to me so I find it pretty easy to do on a scooter as well. Did feel a bit awkward at first with a full-face helmet since I felt more “enclosed” but as soon as I decided to ride a scooter I went out and bought a full-face helmet so every cm. of road I’ve ridden on has been with a full-face helmet so it feels super natural now. I’m actually noticing a lot more full-face helmets on the roads these days compared to say 6-8 years ago.

For the earplugs bit I was actually wondering about that. I want to get some earplugs but I’m also worried about it blocking too much noise (ambulances, loud scooters/cars flying up from behind, etc.)

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I don’t want to be rude, but you guys on scooters are the problem (cars too but even as loud as they are, they are quieter than scooters). If you don’t want to damage your hearing, well, maybe you shouldn’t be contributing to the problem. If you still want to ride a loud scooter, then be consequent with your decision and hear your noise and the noise of your fellowship. Hearing doesn’t come back, but you don’t come back from death either.

Still, you’re probably not as bad as this guy.

My scooter is all stock so it falls inline with the legal noise limits. Main reason I was thinking about ear plugs is not from the noise of my scooter but because of the wind on some roads with faster speed limits.

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I’ve been big on ear protection for ages, so I usually wear foamies, but if you’re worried, some silicone triflanges will do you well. I have these (the NoNoise orange ones), although one thing that bothers me on them is that the push-pull sticky out bit on the end has nothing inside it to reinforce it, so it is a bit difficult to get a good insertion and makes for quite a lot of sound from contact with pads inside the headset, an annoying amount of which end up being low frequency and therefore rather penetrative. So while they work, I wouldn’t necessarily recommend them.

They’re all washable and therefore easily resuable. So the price is a bit high, but so long as you don’t misplace them, they ought to last ages. I still have my Hearoes from high school drum line, and they still work, but again - definitely do not recommend these, as the long plastic grip rods are both uncomfortable and unoptimized for the interior of a helmet.

I’ve heard good things about the Motosafe products and am interested in the pinlock ones. If you pick up one, give me a shout about how you like them. I believe the Motosafe are slightly more noise reducing than the Pinlocks. Either way, should be able to hear a decent amount of what’s around you. I prefer foam for longer rides. No annoying rubbing of grip rod on helmet, but also very noise reducing. The Motosafe race is 20db, the tour is like 17.

I might add that I am a tiny bit skeptical that the ones in the above shoppe link are real… The race goes for 17usd on their website, and is being sold - at what certainly seems like it’d be a loss - for 600 ntd on that link. Make of that what you will. PChome has it for much more money. Idk. Maybe they bought a boatload during a sale?

Quick edit: they might actually not all be made of silicon, should u habe an allergy to that. The Motosafe race mentions this in it’s “compared to the competition” graphic.

Thanks, no thanks.
Not that i disagree with the sentiment that many an exhaust is too loud. Especially the modified ones. Probably the factory one on my bike too. But I personally don’t feel particularly safe cycling on roads here, and I like to show up to work and class not having sweated through my clothes, so I’ll wear my earplugs and be nice and comfy noise wise, if not temperature wise…

The reduced noise hasn’t caused any accidents for me yet :man_shrugging: not like most people here even recognize how loud riding can be. I think I’m in a significant minority by riding with earplugs.

Electric scoots are a nice innovation. Given my liking for going up into the mountains and gear shifting, not really for me, but they do improve that problem, if at the cost of being hard to hear with or without earplugs.

If Taichung offered better public transit that actually helped avoid the congestion on the roads, I’d take it. But as it takes about 40-45 min to do a commute I can do in less than 20 on a motorcycle and probably an equivalent amount of time on a bike, I don’t. Then, after class, I have to go to work. The margins there would be slim.

It all comes back to urban planning. Design a city that’s made to be driven and I’ll drive. Design one that’s meant to be lived in and I’ll take PT or walk or bike. I don’t blame myself or see any hypocrisy in my decision to ride motorcycles for fun and for commuting, as - given the circumstances - it is by far the best option. Riding for fun is in my opinion no problem whatsoever. For work, yes, I wish PT was effective and efficient, but it isn’t here. So I ride. I won’t take blame for the factors in the outside world well beyond my control shaping this choice by designing the city to be ridden on a motorcycle or in a car instead of on a bike. If it were the Netherlands, I’d ride. It isn’t.

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Which are set so manufacturers don’t have to spend more money, not because they are safe and comfortable.

I understand all you say about the environment forcing you on your mode of transportation, but you are also choosing your convenience to be a bigger part of the problem. You could have chosen an electric scooter, but they’re less fun, so (more) pollution it is. You could have chosen an e-bike. I don’t believe they’re more dangerous than scooters in Taiwan. Yes, more chances to be rear ended, but less chances for serious injuries or death due to your own speed in pretty much any other kind of accident.

I know Taiwan sucks, and it sucks more the farther you are from Taipei (which sucks too anyway) but the more people surrender to choose the logical option of private transport, the more Taiwan sucks, and the longer will suck.

Frankly I already feel ill when I read, in @lunlan 's post, about that twenty year old woman on a scooter getting killed in Chiayi. Enough!

Are you a musician? You might have the start of a song here! :upside_down_face:

Guy

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This is good mentoring right there. Grandfather of the day.

Let me guess: he’s a retired safety inspector.

Goddamnit, this island is beyond hope.

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I seem to have lost the thread of that song after only three lines… Might not have much of a future there.:sweat_smile:

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Not sure for others but I can explain my reasoning for switching to a scooter in Taichung.

TLDR: Never had a private vehicle in Taiwan before, worsening bus service, felt like it finally made sense for me to get a scooter.

For some context I’ve been in Taichung for 5+ years and previously had always used public transportation and walking. When mentioning this to locals usually people think I’m nuts, but for the most part it worked out okay for me since the routes I needed to go where I need to go were convenient enough and going out to further places typically I got a ride with friends for hiking some places further away, going next town over to grab a bite to eat, etc.

The number one reason I switched is because the large number of reduction of bus service across many routes in Taichung city last year.

Last year many bus services were reduced during Summer because students were on break. Not all the services were returned to normal after Summer break was over. In August further reductions in bus service were made. The bus frequency reduction rate was about 15%. Then also after Summer last year 2 bus companies in Taichung went under causing further disruption to bus services.

For me, unfortunately this hit a bit hard and made things significantly more inconvenient/difficult as before when I could finish up work or whatever else I could get on bus after waiting about 10-15min., but now I have to wait an extra hour or two for some of my commutes if I’m lucky. If I need to be a few places in a day, depending on the route it can mean running from one bus stop to another because the next bus won’t be for another 1 or 2 hours.

For the MRT, unfortunately it’s been a slow process in Taichung while seemingly Taipei gets new lines fairly quickly. Taichung’s first line, a fully above ground line at that, took what about 20 years? Now the extension to that line has kind of stalled out a bit and the Blue line which will be partially underground was also stalled a bit until recently and will have to wait who knows how long. I enjoy taking the MRT when it fits my needs, but unfortunately that isn’t often enough.

Even without the reduction in services, riding the bus can be a bit exhausting at times because depending on the day or area typically means illegally parked vehicles either blocking the sidewalks (if there are any) or illegally parked in the bus stop forcing me and others into the roads to wave down a bus.

As for recreational, say hiking in Guguan for example, because the buses from Taichung city (#153 and #850) will go on the expressway that means the bus can’t have standing passengers while on the expressway so if there is no seat you can’t get on which means waiting 1 or 2 hours for the next bus, which also might not have a seat available.

For the scooter itself, originally I wanted a Gogoro, but after weighing out my needs/wants and how far I will be driving sometimes I felt like it didn’t fit the bill for me. Also having a lot of scooter shops near me is a plus and being able to just roll in whenever without having to set up an appointment before hand is nice. Also as far as I know Gogoro only has ABS on some 2 series models so not as many choices to look at. There were (still are?) issues with batteries and people suddenly losing power which is not something I want to risk if I’m further out or on a mountain road. So if I was just getting one vehicle then a gas scooter seemed more practical for my case. Also I would still have the same issue with noise, the wind, on higher speed roads.

In fact, for me an electric scooter would be the “fun toy” option as I really enjoy using GoShare or iRent scooters if I just need a quick ride to one place and can get some other way back (if it’s in the allowed “service range” in the case of GoShare, which typically isn’t the case for me).

As for cars, I’m single and live by myself so a car isn’t necessary at all for me unless I just want to take up more space.

I certainly wouldn’t be against the govt. tightening up the noise regulations either and trying to get stock vehicles to be quieter, but I don’t think my new stock scooter (stock exhaust) is as much of an issue compared to the all the illegally modified scooters running around town or sports cars being way too loud at 3am and flying down the straight away or even a stock sports/naked bike for example. I did ask a few friends if they thought my scooter was particularly loud and they thought it sounded pretty “normal” (well…whatever normal is which can certainly be a topic in of itself sometimes, as demonstrated by this very thread).

Fortunately at least the govt. is doing more of the noise camera systems to detect people way over the limit and ticket them and if I understand correctly also they have to report to the DMV to get a check up and see if their scooter will pass the legal noise limits.

As for driving. I follow the law and general basic safety. Worse thing I’ve done so far is accidentally hit the horn on my scooter a few times. I follow the speed limits (it’s Taichung so not really going to get anywhere much faster even if going a little over anyways with all the red lights), keep a safe distance, use turn signals, don’t illegally overtake on the right, don’t cross double whites/yellows, yield for pedestrians, etc. I’ve never illegally parked. Always park in a legal road side parking spot or a paid parking area. I’ve never went up on a sidewalk to get to those scooter parking spots they put on sidewalks

I still use public transportation a lot and my own legs. I’m not just a scooter user. I’m a multi-modal transportation user. I’ve lived in Taiwan with no private transportation ever since I came here and even now that I have my own vehicle (which I’ve been driving for only about 2 months) I still use bus services, I still use YouBike (a lot, I love YouBike!), and of course walking.

Unfortunately as a pedestrian though it feels like Taichung has been slow to make improvements such as safer pedestrian crossings, sidewalks and the like. Taichung has also seen quite an increase in bike casualties as well recently and I’ve almost been one of those quite a few times as well thanks to many cars.

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I also live in Taichung and rode the bus for years but stopped for exactly the same reasons. I had to buy a scooter a year and a half ago because the bus frequency, especially outside the city center, was significantly reduced. Some bus routes I used to take now only pass by once every few hours. For others, during rush hour I often couldn’t get on the bus. So I would be left waiting another half hour. Now imagine how frustrating it is to try to make a transfer to another bus! Some days I would just walk an hour and twenty minutes instead so I at least would have an idea of when I’d be home. I still take the bus on more frequent routes, but the bus frequency is far far less often compared with Taipei.

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Not sure when this happened but the cop does look Taiwanese and it is a beauty like few we’ve ever seen so far… I couldn’t find a YouTube version of it but my students were kind enough to share the FB version with me. As I’ve mentioned in previous posts, I’ve been doing my part in trying to save Junior and senior high school students from a life of stupidity and ignorance by exposing them to videos of locals driving.

地獄梗圖社 2.0 | 剛剛被開罰單,馬上就要要減輕家庭負擔 | Facebook?

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Found it on YouTube. Happened in Nov. 2020 but if you told me it happened just now I wouldn’t be surprised either.

Saw this one shared online a few days ago. Also an older video but from Taichung back in 2021. Basically car driver is mad that a scooter is riding in the regular lane instead of the slow vehicle lane.


To end it on a less serious note…when pushing your scooter probably better to just turn it off so you don’t accidentally twist the throttle.

Oh what the heck, here’s another.


Okay…another one. Kid getting off the scooter grabs on the throttle.

Okay…these ones are just too…interesting. Guy drops his phone and leans over and grabs the throttle while trying to grab his phone.

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a master of the flamingo stance

she rode all the way down the road like that :rofl:

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