Italy and Spain, Italians and Spaniards

I find them comparatively confounding. How are they different? How are they similar? Don’t they seem to be two peas in a pod?

Linguistically, Spanish and Italian are close. Not like Flemish and Dutch, but still, Italians and Spaniards travel easily in each other’s countries without problems communicating. Though here’s a difference, as far as I can tell: there are still lots of older folks in various nether regions of Italy who don’t speak the language of Tuscany very well, but Castilian Spanish is understood and spoken by just about everyone in Spain, young and old, regardless of regional dialect. Or is this a crudely inaccurate characterization on my part?

So let’s haul out the stereotypes and paint with broad brush strokes: The French are stuffy, the Italians are passionate, and the Spaniards are…dour Italians. Eh? I don’t think Spaniards are French at all, anway. At least, that was my impression when I was in Spain. But they seem to prefer the Italians over the French, from what I heard from numerous cab drivers and waiters and the like (yes, I tend to get into these kind of freewheeling conversations when travelling; it helps being North American, you can play up the New World naivete and get people to talk about lots of things). One of the waiters at a paella resto in Valencia we ate at was Italian, and he had the place in the palm of his hand, cracking jokes and making the Spanish waiters and diners laugh. He told us he’d left Genoa to live there, and when we asked why Valencia, he simply said: “Para mi, es mejor.” Why? Because it’s easy to be the life of the party when you’re Italian in Spain?

Why were the Italians’ colonial ambitions and achievements so paltry, especially in comparison to the Spaniards (and most everybody else in Europe)? The whole country is a launching pad for ships, for goodness sakes. That Columbus went to the Spanish for financing for his famous voyage says it all, really. I’m wading into the history here without knowing enough about it, though.

In terms of the people themselves, Moorish blood still runs deep in Spain, it appears. Here’s this year’s winner of the Tour de France, who is fast becoming a dominant force in cycling: Alberto Contador of Madrid.

You would never mistake Contador for an Italian, but you might mistake him for a Peruvian if you didn’t know better. Or even an Arab. Italians don’t really look much like Spaniards, do they? Too white, those Italians. But wait a minute; I grew up in Ontario with lots of Sicilians and Calabrians, and they’re a lot darker than, say, the Milanese. Actually, come to think of it, maybe southern Italians look like Spaniards. Though having said that, Contador isn’t necessarily all that representative of most Spaniards, certainly.

Culinarily speaking, my impression is that the heavy cream sauces are the domain of the French, but they don’t figure much in the traditional cooking of Spain and Italy. Olive oil goes in everything in Spain and Italy, it seems. Italy has pasta, obviously, but my admittedly ill-informed impression is that the Spanish eat more rice.

Caveat: Yes, I know these are all slap-dash impressions consisting of various stereotypes and potentially vapid generalizations. I never said I was an expert. But I’m not busy at the moment, and I thought I’d throw this out there to see the reactions I get. Don’t Spain and Italy seem like brothers among the nations of Europe to you? Which two countries have a closer affinity to one another, aside from the Netherlands and Belgium (and the Scandinavian countries, that goes without saying)?

Just curious.

Ok, let’s throw in the Portuguese and the Mexicans. Where do they fit in?

Er, I think it’s because they were too busy with the Renaissance.

My boy is Italian with Spanish and Italian parentage. Don’t want to write anything ‘incriminating’ in case he checks his computer history. Wink.

A lot of Qs there, r. He much prefers being in Spain to Italy; he says Italy is stuffy, right wing and rule-bound. He travels by bicycle and in his very nice car and says he is treated completely differently depending on whether anyone sees him – bikes are for immigrants, kids and old people.

Venetian (language)'s really different to Italian. Apparently your Venetian makes a real difference to how much you get charged for stuff. Venetian-Italian-Euros-Brits-Americans-Japanese/everyone else.

Food, rice is more Spanish but it’s eaten a lot in Italy too. I can’t deal with the amount of carbs, but I like the flavours.

oops

Well, I wouldn’t include the Mexicans in this, but the Portuguese surely should be included almost by default as Iberians.

Er, I think it’s because they were too busy with the Renaissance.[/quote]
Everybody was busy with the Renaissance, it’s just that the Tuscans were the best at it. It’s a truism that military advances follow cultural and technological advances, and the various city-states in Italy were economic powerhouses, so why didn’t they go out and “conquer” the world? I’m guessing there wasn’t enough solidarity in Italy at the time, the city-states were really too small for there to be, say, a “New Venetia” instead of Nova Scotia, or a “New Florence” instead of New London.

It depends exactly what time period we are talking about, but Britain looked outward because it wasn’t doing so well financially, initially. anyway. Henry VIII and later, Elizabeth needed to develop navies to defend Britain from an increasingly hostile Roman Europe.

The ‘Renaissance’ was a very different experience, around Europe. It’s interesting to me how different parts of Europe developed different kinds of art in response to social constraints or opportunities. Britain could no more come up with those chubby angels than Florence could have come up with Marlowe. And Dutch painting?

In Italy, you mean? Or Spain? Or both?

Funny, because for all of Spain’s recent success in cycling, I saw a grand total of one cyclist on the road there during the month of February in 2007. Yes, one. The weather fluctuated from the teens to the mid-single digits, so I don’t think it was too cold for cycling (or am I just Canadian?–no, Canucks don’t ride bikes hardly at all, comparatively speaking, and would never ride in the winter, and 10 degrees in Valencia is winter). Oh, I also saw a pro team training on the motorway south of Madrid, the coach we were in politely shifted over to the inside lane so as not to get too close to them when passing. But they were getting paid to ride.

Funny your characterization of cyclists, though: here in North America they’re for migrant workers and kids. Immigrants and old people just drive their cars, like everybody else not in Toronto or Manhattan.

In Italy. He likes to drive in Spain. Nice roads, no crazy Italian drivers.

Why didn’t Italy have colonial ambitions? Firstly, I think it’s important to point out that the major colonial powers all had Atlantic coasts (okay, you could get picky and say the Netherlands isn’t on the Atlantic, but you know what I mean). There were other colonial powers in Europe that we don’t think of as colonial powers (e.g. Sweden in the Baltic until the Great Northern War; Austria – probably not really a colonial power at all, just an imperial one – in first resisting and then pushing back the Ottomans through the Balkans; Russia in Siberia and the Crimea and even down as far as Fort Ross in California), but it was largely an Atlantic affair. Other countries (such as Sweden) did have a go at non-European colonies, but their main focus was their own backyard.

Secondly, it’s important to note that said countries were countries. Italy wasn’t fully a country until 1870 with the capture of Rome. By that point in time, the colonial race had largely been run already. It’s the same reason why Germany never really became a colonial power – it left its run too late – and ended up with a handful of scraps in Africa and the Pacific. If you had your shit together somewhat as a nation in the fifteenth to nineteenth centuries, you became a colonial power, and depending upon your level of having your shit together at what time, that’s where your power base was (for instance, the English were more successful than the French in the eighteenth century, which is why they managed to largely kick them out of North America and also out of India in the Carnatic Wars).

Thirdly, it’s important to remember that the various Italian states had their hands full with much bigger states. The Venetians and the Ottomans had a long going power struggle in the Balkans and the Mediterranean, so it’s probably not that likely that they could have spared any resources to establish (and defend) New World colonies. Likewise, at various times, the Italian city states found themselves either as “allies” or outright conquered states by bigger European nations such as (off the top of my head, so please excuse me if I’m wrong) Spain, France and Austria.

Finally, regarding Spain’s colonial ambitions and Columbus, that didn’t happen in a vacuum either. Remember my first point about the Atlantic? Well, the Portuguese had already been trying to find a sea route to Asia around Africa (to cut the Ottoman middlemen out of the picture), so I’m sure that rivalry played a part. They’d both already begun to colonise various nearby island chains in the Atlantic (off the top of my head the Azores, Canaries and Cape Verde) and their whole rivalry reached its peak with the Treaty of Tordesillas when the Pope basically drew a line on a map and said everything west of that line was Spanish and everything east was Portuguese. Also, it’s no coincidence that in 1492, Spain finally kicked the Muslims out of Iberia and you had all these macho men all dressed up and nowhere to go…but the New World.

Thanks Guy, I always appreciate your insight into historical matters.

Fortigurn: Thanks. I’m not at all into this whole history thing where they look at what some ignorant peasant was up to on his farm. I’m all about the raping and pillaging. I’m a minor war nerd. If you’re really interested in war nerdery, why not check out The War Nerd? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Brecher

You can find his articles at The Exile (exile.ru/articles/list.php?IBLOC … ION_ID=156), which is the kind of twisted, cynical, gonzo take on journalism that’s right up my alley.

Why don’t you actually go there first before making the Iberian Peninsula some sort of fetish?

I mean, seriously, you are a man who has never - NEVER - set foot in the U.K. and yet claim yourself as, an, ahem “Anglophile”?

Ahem. I do not think that Italy or Spain is for a person (weirdo nerd) such as yourself. As an Anglo-Saxon tourist, that’s fine! - they will treat you exactly the same as all other Anglo-Saxon tourists! ("Oh fuck, we must clean up his puke…)

Who you be talking about my fellow Yunlin County survivor?

[quote=“Quentin”]Why don’t you actually go there first before making the Iberian Peninsula some sort of fetish?

I mean, seriously, you are a man who has never - NEVER - set foot in the U.K. and yet claim yourself as, an, ahem “Anglophile”?

Ahem. I do not think that Italy or Spain is for a person (weirdo nerd) such as yourself. As an Anglo-Saxon tourist, that’s fine! - they will treat you exactly the same as all other Anglo-Saxon tourists! ("Oh fuck, we must clean up his puke…)[/quote]

Yeeeees, that’s exactly how it is. :laughing:

Seriously, waiguoren are weird.

Erm, I have been there. I said that in a previous post in this thread. But I haven’t been to Italy.

I’ve been to the UK, too, albeit briefly. Still, it may surprise you to learn that prior to my short sojourn in the outskirts of London I’d read countless books and watched countless films and listened to countless musical recordings emanating from the UK without ever having been there before. Neat, eh?

Hmmm…at risk of talking about myself too much, could you expand on what you mean? Here’s my take: I’ve travelled fairly extensively through Spain, Mexico and Guatemala, and while I enjoyed those trips I never really felt a particular affinity with the cultures of those places. The enjoyment was that of the exotic, filtered through a Graham Greene-esque lense. My wife, on the other hand, absolutely weeps with aesthetic joy at photos of colonial architecture in Mexico, and often dreams wistfully of living there someday.

Though she hates Mexican food. She figures the Taiwanese travel writer San Mao nailed it when she described tacos as “meat wrapped in dishrags.” Heh. I myself liked the streetside tacos in Mexico, though I got typhoid from them in Puebla. There’s a story behind that, actually. I’d been in Taiwan so long and had officially declared myself a non-resident of Canada so that I could avoid paying taxes at home with a good conscience, and so my Ontario health insurance had expired. During a brief trip back to Ontario before going on to Mexico, I went to get some inoculations, but they were $75 each. The doctor offered me tetanus and typhoid, but I decided to economize, and just got the tetanus shot. Oooof!

Wow what ignorance about the Spanish people…most Spaniards do not look Peruvian considering that most peruvians are a mix of native “Indian” and Spanish blood. This whole stereotype that Spaniards are all dark and look like Arabs is false, I have relatives in Spain that look like they could be from any part of Northern Europe, with light skin, blue eyes and red hair, and a genetic test done on the Spanish people a couple of years have proved that less than 10% of Spaniards have any Moorish blood…despite being there so long the Moors left a tiny genetic fingerprint. Most Italians South or North look very much like Spaniards, I have been to both countries and both are Mediterranean people with similar features, most Italians are olive skinned, I don’t know where you get the idea that they are “too white” I would say that Spaniards and Italians get along really well, better than Spaniards and the French or even Portuguese. Sorry for the rant, but I get tired of stereotypes. Oh and one last thing lol…Spaniards rearly immigrate to North American, and if they do move to other countries, it’s usually to other European countries, that’s why many Americans and Canadians don’t really even know all that much about Spain and the Spanish people.

There’s only two things anybody needs to know about Spain (well, maybe two sides of the same thing):

Barca rules.
Real Madrid sucks.( I mean that in the Cosmological Moral Order of Things sense, not the actually having good teams and winning so many games sense)