[quote]As long as you have the qualifications for the locals to work at buxibans or any other place, you should work without any problem also.
[/quote]
No you can’t, because the MOE says you can’t. The MOE ‘governs’ buxibans, so they ARE the law.
Brian
The MOE has no right to say anything which is in violation of the law. Prototype’s analysis is correct.
Well … they do anyway. And they’re fining schools for hiring married teachers with JFRV. Presumably the fines don’t go direct to the MOE but to some kind of administrative court or something, so… if the courts are upholding the fines, what does it matter what anyone thinks? Its being done and there is administration in place to deal with it.
In theory yes, but the fact that they’ve got no right doesn’t make a whit of difference. The law doesn’t matter.
Brian
Well … they do anyway. And they’re fining schools for hiring married teachers with JFRV. Presumably the fines don’t go direct to the MOE but to some kind of administrative court or something, so… if the courts are upholding the fines, what does it matter what anyone thinks? Its being done and there is administration in place to deal with it.[/quote]
Really? Is there documented evidence of this, or is it hearsay? Any links to news stories? And has anyone heard of a teacher getting fined/into legal hot water because of this? I don’t mean a tut-tut form some M of E. flunky, but real trouble. Anyone?
My school, for example, recently got fined 500000 for hiring an illegal teacher. They don’t wnat to get fined that much again, so they want me to get a work permit.
“But I don’t need a work permit”
“But the Ministry of Education says you do, and they’re the ones who run this system, and they’re the ones who’ll fine us”
What school is going to want to risk getting fined because their teacher doesn’t want to get a work permit? You think me saying “if you get fined you could fight it in court and I’m sure you’d win” is going to make much of a difference?
We know what the theory is, but that’s just theory. The fact is that the law doesn’t matter if government departments are allowed to ignore the law.
Brian
But the illegal teacher in question wasn’t a JFRV ARC holder, was it? I think your school is erring… on the side of caution to be sure, but still erring. I haven’t heard yet of any JFRV ARC teacher - or the school they worked in - getting busted yet. Just lots of grumbling from the M. of E.
No. My point is, no legal school wants to go to court over this. They’d rather you just get the work permit. Maybe there have’t been any cases of schools being fined for JFRV teachers, but I bet there’s loads of cases of JFRV holders getting work permits because -the school or MOE told them they had to/insisted/wouldn’t employ them otherwise etc. Noone’s going to want to get fined, deported or have a costly court case and lose their job this. They’d rather just get the permit.
Brian
Are you sure Sandman? I’d appreciate any info.
If the law says that the JFRV holders, with ARC based on marriage, do not need a work permit, then they don’t need a work permit.
I believe that all posters to this forum should be intent on helping all concerned parties to get this matter straightened out, rather than just restating the rumors or other incorrect rabble that you hear “on the street” or “in the bushibans”.
Why doesn’t someone call the bushiban association on Gong Yuan Road? That is Suite 4, 11th Floor, No. 30 Gong Yuan Road, Taipei. Telephones: (02) 2375-2245, 2311-9352. Mr. Chang Hau-ran is the head officer over there.
About six weeks ago I visited his offices and asked him to please send a formal written inquiry to the MOE about this. I don’t know if he has done so yet. If so, he should have gotten a formal reply by now.
Alright. I’ll send him a letter.
I’m not talking about rumours. I’m talking about the situation I’m in. The MOE has told my buxiban that I need a work permit. I’m stalling. I’m willing to fight this, within reason, but I can hardly expect my school to go to court for me. It’s them that would have to pay a fine, it’s them that would have to go to court (and pay for that). I don’t know what they’d decide if given the choice between going to court for me, or replacing me, but I don’t want to put them in that position. And I’ve already got the job. How about a new candidate for a job. Employer says “you have to get a work permit” “No I have a JFRV, I don’t need a work permit”, “Sorry, but the MOE insists you get one”, “I insist I don’t have to” “Who’s next on the interview list”.
Brian
Sorry, but I think it’s bluster - at least until I hear of at least one documented case where a JFRV ARC teacher is busted for teaching without a permit. BTW, what does a permit look like? It’s not a working visa, so it must be something that any Taiwanese can get as well. Who issues the permit? Again, it’s not a working visa, so it can’t be the Bureau of Labour Affairs. DOes the M. of E. issue permits to Taiwanese buxiban teachers? Part-time teachers? FOr ENglish only, or for chemistry, social studies and Chinese as well? I’m sorry, there are just too many questions here. I’ll believe something’s changed when it happens, not just the idle grumblings of a disempowered government branch.
Well it may be bluster, or bluff, but if the MOE tells the buxiban that their teacher needs a work permit (from what the MOE guy told me it’s a regular work permit except for something you don’t need - maybe the medical, maybe the degree), the buxiban is going to believe them. They’re not going to want to risk it.
Brian
But Hartzell is right. Bu Lai En is not being helpful by being so skeptical and by continuing to repeat the rumors and street-talk which he has heard everyone saying.
If Bu Lai En wants to help, he could also contact the Buxiban Association mentioned above, or go visit them in person, and try to get these things straightened out. His somewhat “belligerent” attitude in repeating what others have told him certainly isn’t productive.
[quote]But Hartzell is right. Bu Lai En is not being helpful by being so skeptical and by continuing to repeat the rumors and street-talk which he has heard everyone saying.
If Bu Lai En wants to help, he could also contact the Buxiban Association mentioned above, or go visit them in person, and try to get these things straightened out. His somewhat “belligerent” attitude in repeating what others have told him certainly isn’t productive.[/quote]
Falcon is not being helpful by his inability to read.
I’m talking about my own situation, stupid, not repeating rumours.
Brian
[quote=“Bu Lai En”]
Falcon is not being helpful by his inability to read.
I’m talking about my own situation, stupid, not repeating rumours.
Brian[/quote]
Besides that, what he’s saying makes perfect sense and is undoubtedly the truth. I doubt you read all of it Falcon.
Imagine you are a bushiban owner:
A: Jiayujiao tells you foreigner needs a work permit
B: Foreigner tells you that’s not true
I think it’s safe to say a fair amount of them are going to listen to A rather than B.
I agree that Bu Lai En is not being helpful by going along with the rumors and other street-talk which he hears. The point of this Forum, in the Legal Matters section, is to help get these problems straightened out, and not to acquiesce to what some buxiban owners hear from other uninformed persons in the industry.
While I hope that Bu Lai En and others are not arguing for the sake of arguing, the more I read their posts, the more it appears that way. Why don’t they, or their associates, get in touch with the Buxiban Association as spoken of above . . . . ? But Bu Lai En, Daltongang, et al just keep repeating this elementary school 2nd grade logic about two people arguing about the need for a work permit, (and no one checks up on the true legal situation to see what the real facts of the matter are) . . . . and then concludes that more people will listen to one side than the other.
It has been said before, and is worth repeating: If you want to get your rights in Taiwan, this is certainly not the way to approach the entire matter. You have to stand up for your rights, and at the most basic level this means finding out what they are and spreading the word about the “correct situation” or the “correct interpretation” and not just repeating what other uninformed persons have said, while at the same time not taking the trouble to fully check out the facts yourself . . . . .
For this reason, life in Taiwan is not always easy. But we hope that each of us can contribute something to the knowledge pool, in order to make things easier not only for ourselves but for those who go after us as well. Correct determination of our legal rights must certainly be part of this process.
[quote=“Quest”]I agree that Bu Lai En is not being helpful by going along with the rumors and other street-talk which he hears. The point of this Forum, in the Legal Matters section, is to help get these problems straightened out, and not to acquiesce to what some buxiban owners hear from other uninformed persons in the industry.
While I hope that Bu Lai En and others are not arguing for the sake of arguing, the more I read their posts, the more it appears that way. Why don’t they, or their associates, get in touch with the Buxiban Association as spoken of above . . . . ? But Bu Lai En, Daltongang, et al just keep repeating this elementary school 2nd grade logic about two people arguing about the need for a work permit, (and no one checks up on the true legal situation to see what the real facts of the matter are) . . . . and then concludes that more people will listen to one side than the other.
It has been said before, and is worth repeating: If you want to get your rights in Taiwan, this is certainly not the way to approach the entire matter. You have to stand up for your rights, and at the most basic level this means finding out what they are and spreading the word about the “correct situation” or the “correct interpretation” and not just repeating what other uninformed persons have said, while at the same time not taking the trouble to fully check out the facts yourself . . . . .
For this reason, life in Taiwan is not always easy. But we hope that each of us can contribute something to the knowledge pool, in order to make things easier not only for ourselves but for those who go after us as well. Correct determination of our legal rights must certainly be part of this process.[/quote]
By all means fight it. I am merely pointing out that buxiban owners are more likely to listen to the Jiaoyuju than their foreign teachers. This is Taiwan. The rule of law is not absolute here. If the Jiaoyuju says do this, people are not going to look to fight them on a legal basis. That is the reality of the situation, which Bulaien is personally experiencing right now. It’s not logic, it’s fact.
I did not in any way suggest you should acquiesce to this situation, your rant is misplaced. However I suggest that if you are going to fight it you recognize some basic realities of the situation first, even if you find them to be examples of elementary school logic.
By the way, as far as i knew the point of this forum was discussion of legal matters.
Quest:
Bu Lai En has followed this issue quite closely as have I. He is not spreading rumors. Article 51 work permits appear to grant foreigners who are married or who have PARC’s broad work rights. However, government agencies like the MOE and the GIO are ignoring what the law says and insisting that foreigners can work in Buxibans or the media only after the MOE or the GIO issues a work permit. Getting these work permits often have other requirements such as a four-year degree (MOE) or related work experience.
The situation is very confusing and inconsistent. For example, I have a PARC and open work permit and am able to teach in a university extension program on this basis alone. Buxiban work permit regulations are (or were) set by local Education Bureaus, not the MOE. It may be that you can use your open work permit in say Hualien, but not Kaohsiong to teach in a Buxiban.
By pointing this situation out, Bu Lai En is contributing to our pool of knowledge.
Thank you Feiren.
This, and Falcon’s previous comments, piss me off. I haven’t circulated or gone along with a single rumour, or piece of street-talk. I repeat (for the hard of hearing) that this is a very real situation which I am facing (personally, myself - not a rumour OK).
If you had read this thread, and the other one that I started, you would see that this is exactly what I am doing. I have started with trying to find out just what the legal situation is at the moment, and it perhaps not as clear-cut as you imagine. I am spreading the word about the “correct situation” - the correct situation, is that although there is a law giving JFRV holders the same work rights as Taiwanese, this law means nothing to buxiban teachers, when the authority governing them interprets this law to suit their own agenda.
Now, something I realised last night - yes, we do need a test case for this, but the test case should not be someone like me, a JFRV holder wanting to teach in a buxiban. That is the wrong approach. The test case needs to be a buxiban owner wishing to employ someone. That’s the only way it’s going to work. So we need to find a buxiban owner (probably a foreigner) who wants to do this. They hire a JFRV holder, and then somehow draw the MOE’s attention to this. The MOE reacts the way they have been - by saying that the person needs a work permit - and the buxiban defends this, in court if necessary.
Test case?