For KMT to sign ECFA in Chongqing, a obvious slap in the face,
shows that it should change its name to “CCP, Taiwan Branch”
or alternatively “Running Dog Party”
Ma is just Mao without the ring.
I think the Chinese Nationalist Party is already the best name for them.
LOL, on this we finally agree. The hand-wringing from the peanut gallery continues to ignore the fact that, yes, the “Taiwanese people” elected a party of CHINESE NATIONALISTS to office.
LOL, on this we finally agree. The hand-wringing from the peanut gallery continues to ignore the fact that, yes, the “Taiwanese people” elected a party of Chinese NATIONALISTS to office.[/quote]
No they didn’t if by that you mean they voted for a party that considers China first. Ma and co made every attempts to distance themselves from traditional KMT ideology during the election: they emphasized their love for Taiwan, their Taiwanese identity, their Taiwan centered policies, their desire to protect the freedoms of Taiwanese.
People elected what they thought was a modern rational Taiwan based party (such as they had under Lee Teng Hui) that just happened to have an anachronistic name, as many parties around the world do. Hmm, I can think of one now: the communist party of China. 
Isn’t there going to be a protest or something? I just can’t believe ECFA is happening so smoothly. Back in Europe…
[quote=“Mucha Man”]No they didn’t if by that you mean they voted for a party that considers China first. Ma and co made every attempts to distance themselves from traditional KMT ideology during the election: they emphasized their love for Taiwan, their Taiwanese identity, their Taiwan centered policies, their desire to protect the freedoms of Taiwanese.
People elected what they thought was a modern rational Taiwan based party (such as they had under Lee Teng Hui) that just happened to have an anachronistic name, as many parties around the world do. Hmm, I can think of one now: the communist party of China. 
[/quote]
Gee, who could’ve seen this coming while the Taiwanese were headed to the ballot box back in 2008?
[i]He, and the KMT party he represents, want to negotiate a “common market” with mainland China, a free trade area, which he believes will help pull Taiwan out of its financial doldrums.
And the party has made this a key policy for the presidential election this coming Saturday.
“The integration of business, more trade from the other side - we’ll increase our income,” Dr Ho says, “and achieve higher economic growth.”[/i]
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7307031.stm
And of course… we all know the DPP has always been shy about accusing the KMT and Ma of selling out to the Communists, right? The “one China” issue never even came up during the 2008 campaign season, right?
[quote=“cctang”][quote=“Mucha Man”]No they didn’t if by that you mean they voted for a party that considers China first. Ma and co made every attempts to distance themselves from traditional KMT ideology during the election: they emphasized their love for Taiwan, their Taiwanese identity, their Taiwan centered policies, their desire to protect the freedoms of Taiwanese.
People elected what they thought was a modern rational Taiwan based party (such as they had under Lee Teng Hui) that just happened to have an anachronistic name, as many parties around the world do. Hmm, I can think of one now: the communist party of China. [/quote]
Gee, who could’ve seen this coming while the Taiwanese were headed to the ballot box back in 2008?
[i]He, and the KMT party he represents, want to negotiate a “common market” with mainland China, a free trade area, which he believes will help pull Taiwan out of its financial doldrums.
And the party has made this a key policy for the presidential election this coming Saturday.
“The integration of business, more trade from the other side - we’ll increase our income,” Dr Ho says, “and achieve higher economic growth.”[/i]
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7307031.stm
And of course… we all know the DPP has always been shy about accusing the KMT and Ma of selling out to the Communists, right? The “one China” issue never even came up during the 2008 campaign season, right?[/quote]
Greater business ties with China have been preceeding apace under every administration since the 90s. The vice president has also been pushing for a common market since 2000 or possibly earlier. Nothing new there if you were paying attention. Of course most taiwanese weren’t paying attention so you can’t simply take random quotes ffrom before the election and argue that this means Taiwanese are fully in support of everything this administration is doing. Every poll now shows that Ma’s dismal approval ratings are in part due to his China policies. Gee, who could have seen that coming? Anyone who lives here.
You simply have no idea the disgust people here have with Ma. Even the light and many younger deep blues just cannot believe how he panders to China.
In any case, a common market, free trade, etc, do not in themelves mean political integration with China which is what you want and the old guard KMT wants and the majority of Taiwanese absolutely do not want.
Anyway, back on topic, the Taiwanese did not vote for a party whose members consider themselves nationals of China.
They’ve had 3 over the last month, 2 in Taipei, 1 in Kaohsiung. The problem is, no one went. All three protests saw turnouts much lower than predicted. I was at the 2 in Taipei, and other than a relative lack of people (in comparison to previous years), the one thing I noticed was an absence of pretty much anyone under 40. Whether that’s due to apathy, or they believe ECFA will benefit them, I don’t know.
[quote=“Maoman”]I think the Chinese Nationalist Party is already the best name for them.[/quote] I think their official name in the party charter might be “The Nationalist Party of China”. “Chinese Nationalist Party” is the term the Taipei Times came up for them. But I agree we should come up with amusing nicknames for them. That’s always fun.
Craig, there was apparently a scheduling conflict and the tens of thousands of riot police were all busy playing mahjong and slurping down yummy noodles that day, alas.
Well, I can think of more elaborate and descriptive names to incorporate their various roles as as a coalition of gangsters, carpetbaggers, thieves and murderers, but ‘Chinese Nationalist Party’ is not in any way inaccurate.
[quote=“Mucha Man”]
Greater business ties with China have been preceeding apace under every administration since the 90s. The vice president has also been pushing for a common market since 2000 or possibly earlier. Nothing new there if you were paying attention. Of course most taiwanese weren’t paying attention so you can’t simply take random quotes ffrom before the election and argue that this means Taiwanese are fully in support of everything this administration is doing. Every poll now shows that Ma’s dismal approval ratings are in part due to his China policies. Gee, who could have seen that coming? Anyone who lives here.
You simply have no idea the disgust people here have with Ma. Even the light and many younger deep blues just cannot believe how he panders to China.
In any case, a common market, free trade, etc, do not in themelves mean political integration with China which is what you want and the old guard KMT wants and the majority of Taiwanese absolutely do not want.
Anyway, back on topic, the Taiwanese did not vote for a party whose members consider themselves nationals of China.[/quote]
Muzha Man, you will remember that the KMT actively campaigned on a common market with China during the election. They have a clear mandate to sign ECFA based on Ma’s resounding win in 2008.
They do not have a mandate for political integration. The majority of Taiwanese do not want political integration at present. But the government are not proposing political integration.
I would also be interested in seeing the polls that show Ma’s poor approval ratings are a result of his China policies.
Pardon me for not relying on you strictly as the objective arbiter of Taiwanese public opinion… but I’d just point out: isn’t this what elections are for? If indeed there’s widespread disgust towards Ma (for implementing the exact core policies that defined his winning platform in 2008)… then we’ll find out soon enough, won’t we? And if we don’t find out? If the KMT still holds a majority in the legislature, and Ma wins re-election in two years? Will you concede then that the Taiwanese are supportive of these integration policies, even if it sacrifices the “distinctiveness” of Taiwan and China?
That’s of course a rhetorical question. You will never concede that point. The pan-Blue parties have been a living nightmare for anyone who truly values Taiwanese independence since 2005. Soong and Lien had extremely public “root-seeking” visits to the mainland. Ma appoints Lien to then meet with Hu Jintao at APEC in 2008. The KMT and the CCP established bi-annual party-party policy meetings. Both sides use “one China” in some context. Ma campaigns on economic integration in 2008. And yet, when the Blues are elected into office again and again… you ignore it. You don’t really care what the Taiwanese express at the ballot box, you already “know” all there is to know.
You explain it all away by saying “most Taiwanese weren’t paying attention”. LOL, love it. If the Taiwanese weren’t paying attention in 2005-2008 after all the missile launches, the threats of war, the tension with Washington DC, the public marches, the bill-swallowing and shoe-throwing in the Legislative Yuan, the presidential campaign that bombarded every Taiwanese street with constant political messages, the “unification war pandas”… are you so certain now they’ll pay attention? And if they’re paying attention, why aren’t they showing up at pan-Green marches with the same numbers they were 3-4 years ago?
I do want political integration, but neither expect it nor even desire it for the near future. Political integration will come as a consequence decades down the line of social/economic integration. Even many of the deep-Blues I know personally have not visited much of the mainland, and not in recent years. Political integration will ONLY come when the average Taiwanese is as wealthy as any other mid-level Chinese province (say… Hubei), when a house in Taipei costs as much as it does in Wuhan, when Taiwanese kids dream of attending Beida and Qinghua, when Taiwanese listen to mainland music stars and watch mainland movies.
I see all of those things as inevitable, regardless of who wins the 2010-2040 elections.
welcome back cctang.
However, you may underestimate the Taiwanese-ness of the new KMT or the new ROC.
Just as the KMT and the ROC has very much shaped the Taiwan of today. The Taiwan of today has shaped the new KMT and the new ROC.
The RoC has acknowledged that the mainland of China is controlled by the CCP and its most unlikely (like a snowballs chance in hell) the KMT and the ROC will ever “re-claim” China under its auspices.
Taiwanese on the whole have an identity crisis. Are they “Chinese” or are they “Taiwanese”? What exactly are they. They may not be sure but for sure they know they are NOT mAINLAND Chinese. And most of them dont want to ever be either.
Taiwan realizes that it has to work with China, and be much closer with China for its own well being going into the 21st century. But in so doing, the knowledge that they are Taiwanese is strengthening. I dont see it waning at this point.
It may one day when China becomes almost identical to Taiwan. But not the other way around.
It could be a chilly day in hell before most Taiwanese want to be like China and the Chinese of present day China.
Living here in the bay area , iv come across many mainlanders who are not welcoming of taiwanese and do not want to associate with one. Prejudice is not one sided and still remains.
The enmity between the KMT/CCP and the peoples of Taiwan versus those of the mainland are still not far far below the surface.
tommy,
I think the difference here is in terms of timeframe. I don’t at all dispute there are huge social differences between mainland and Taiwanese society today, and there will continue to be frictions as the process of integration begins. (I do think you over-state the difference in overseas communities, however; whether in the Bay Area or Chinese-concentrated areas of Canada, I see a lot of mingling of these communities amongst those who’ve been here for more than 10 years.)
I’m projecting out to where things will stand 30 to 50 years from now. And yes, exactly as you said, the Chinese will become the (wealthy, worldly) Taiwanese today rather than vice versa. And what will the status quo be at that point? What will the world be like when a Taipei resident makes less than a Wuhan resident?
How far removed from (relative) poverty are today’s Taiwanese? Only about 30 years, only a generation or two. Why wouldn’t the Chinese 30 years from now look just like the Taiwanese of today?
Yes when actual lifestyles vary little between the two and there are 1000 flights a week between Taiwan and the mainland of China there will be less and less differentiation between the two.
It is headed in that direction.
TW should allow a lot more Chinese students in. These people will help shape the China of 20 years from now.
We (Taiwanese) cant avoid China so lets help make China more like Taiwan 
Already when I see some young ladies here in the bay area dressed and looking like TW girls I find out that they are actually Chinese girls.
But, I did have a Chinese girl mention to me that my being “Taiwanese” was not preferred. She was looking for friends from China as she is from there. This was on more then one occasion.
Shows me that the Chinese are not liking us Taiwanese anymore then we like “them” 
LOL, far be it for me to question your game… but are you sure your girl troubles are related to cross-strait tensions? 
Probably not. I probably suck and it might have been a good excuse !! 
[quote=“cctang”]Gee, who could’ve seen this coming while the Taiwanese were headed to the ballot box back in 2008?
[i]He, and the KMT party he represents, want to negotiate a “common market” with mainland China, a free trade area, which he believes will help pull Taiwan out of its financial doldrums.
And the party has made this a key policy for the presidential election this coming Saturday.
“The integration of business, more trade from the other side - we’ll increase our income,” Dr Ho says, “and achieve higher economic growth.”[/i]
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7307031.stm
And of course… we all know the DPP has always been shy about accusing the KMT and Ma of selling out to the Communists, right? The “one China” issue never even came up during the 2008 campaign season, right?[/quote]
Oppositions don’t win elections. Governments lose them.
Simple as that.
Taiwan is distinct from China not so much because of wealth, but because of the great changes to civil society that came about after the lifting of martial law. Taiwanese have transformed themselves and their society from the grassroots up from a rigid martial corporatalist society into what is now the most free, open, and tolerant places in Asia.
Buddhist groups such as Ciji have played a massive roll in this, by both rationalizing and modernizing relgious belief (thus appealing to the middle class which are the bilk of Buddhist believers in Taiwan), and providing the lay population with a direction for charitable work. More recently environmental groups are changing the attitudes of people toward their land and lifestyle.
This is all voluntary and all organic in the way ideas are presented in a free society and the best or most relevant win the hearts of the people. There is no coercion, no false sloganeering.
This is not happening in China. The government is incapable of reforming society and is unwilling to let society do it itself.
So no, greater wealth will not lessen the social distinctions between Taiwanese and Chinese. And greater familiarity will not lessen it because at the end of the day the Chinese don’t get to go home and watch their president being heckled on TV.
Oh and btw, you should stop listening to what overseas taiwanese think. They’re expats and expats are notorious for having their impressions of the homeland frozen in time.