Korean Beheaded

[Tigerman]

@tigerman

Then why are they trying to kill the leaders of the new Iraqi government that apparently enjoys very wide support of the Iraqi people?

@smerf

I think they are seen as US collaborators, same as the poor Korean chap who is the topic of this thread. If Iraq’s democratic reform had come from within, I doubt there would be the foreign terrorist influenced violence in the country that we see today. The democratic reforms taking place in Iraq are the result of US armed intervention in Iraq. They hate us and anyone connected to us.

I think you hit on the issue right there at the end. The Iraqis do not hate us, and even if they do, nearly 80% of them support the new Iraqi government.

I think the terrorists would be there regardless of whether the reform were US induced or home-grown. It really makes NO difference, at least now that the Iraqis support the new government and the reform. The terrorists are foreign insurgents… why should they care that the Iraqis desire reform?

[imyourbiggestfan]

As i think FS has also mentioned on another thread, the links between Iraq and Al Qaeda were obvious to Al Gore in 1992, when he berated Bush1 for having ignored them.

I now find the whole partisan argument about whether or not there was a connection between Iraq and alQaeda rather tiring. As just about everyone of every political colour has believed there was such a connection at some point.

And yes, using it as a pretext for war does indeed open up the possibility of wars in North Korea and, say, Iran.

Infact, the more one hears about Iran, the more dngerous it seems. However, the hope has to be that having seen what happens to states that follow the policies of Saddam Hussein, they may take a different route.

So far, they have not.

[dix2111]

After following this post for awile I finally have to put in my .74 nt. I hesitate because of my wet ink as well as the fact that most of you political science majors make mincemeat out of my poor little community college education but here goes.

1. the “torture” at abu garaff was not torture but harrassment. I’ve not seen a single photo or allegation of actual torture.In the military they have a school called SEAR school (survival, evasion,escape, resistance) in this school they put you in a prisoner of war senereo. you are released into the desert or jungle and told to go hide for a while. you team up in groups of two and go eat roots and berries while hiding from the enemy. if you arent captured in a certain time period then you had to surrender(so you could get the full benifit of the facilities offered) after captured you went through the entire pow experience to include butt nakedness, the laughing off the tiny weiners(or in my case the huge snuasages) you got open fisted smacks to the head as well as water tourture,food and sleep deprivation,humiliation, the horrible experience of watching someone else get smacked around becasue you did something, locked in small boxes and other stuff too.
   it was done profesionally and noone was seriously hurt and you could quit as soon as you decieded you never wanted to get promoted again and be a loser laughing stock for the rest of your career. my point is that it was a bad couple of weeks and harrassment but not torture. I’m sure it was worse for the prisoners becasue they were dealing with it a lot longer than 2 weeks but it still wasnt torture. anyone who says it was brutal torture has never gotton their ass beat in a bar fight and if you’ll forgive my bluntness, theyre just a little like sissy girls.
   it was wrong but not evil
2. people should see the beheading videos as well as others because it shows what they are fighting against. it shows the mentallity of the enemy. not the average iraqi but the wacked out fruitcakes. I believe that the average iraqi doesnt like americans but doesnt support this type of behavior.
   watch the video and cry a little but watch the video before you make an opinion about what is right, wrong or the lessor of two evils.

finally,

never mind i haveto go eat
thats all i have to say about that

[Spanky]

@dix2111

1. the “torture” at abu garaff was not torture but harrassment. I’ve not seen a single photo or allegation of actual torture.In the military they have a school called SEAR school (survival, evasion,escape, resistance) in this school they put you in a prisoner of war senereo. you are released into the desert or jungle and told to go hide for a while. you team up in groups of two and go eat roots and berries while hiding from the enemy. if you arent captured in a certain time period then you had to surrender(so you could get the full benifit of the facilities offered) after captured you went through the entire pow experience to include butt nakedness, the laughing off the tiny weiners(or in my case the huge snuasages) you got open fisted smacks to the head as well as water tourture,food and sleep deprivation,humiliation, the horrible experience of watching someone else get smacked around becasue you did something, locked in small boxes and other stuff too.
   it was done profesionally and noone was seriously hurt and you could quit as soon as you decieded you never wanted to get promoted again and be a loser laughing stock for the rest of your career. my point is that it was a bad couple of weeks and harrassment but not torture. I’m sure it was worse for the prisoners becasue they were dealing with it a lot longer than 2 weeks but it still wasn’t torture. anyone who says it was brutal torture has never gotton their ass beat in a bar fight and if you’ll forgive my bluntness, theyre just a little like sissy girls.
   it was wrong but not evil

I’m sorry but there is a world of difference between this army program and what happened to the prisoners. You could say “I quit” anytime you wanted. Do you think the prisoners could say that? You always knew that you were not going to be seriously hurt. Do you think that the prisoners knew that? It would be alot easier for you to go through this kind of treatment because you knew it would not be too bad and that you would not be seriously hurt. So don’t try to justify what happened by calling people a bunch of sissy girls. It’s completely ridiculous to try to equate the two situations. I am sure that the prisoners went through a lot more than your “safe little army program”.

I am constantly amazed by the semantic argument that “it wasn’t torture but only abuse” as if that makes it better. You even try to downgrade what happened even more by calling it harrassment, as if that makes it better. I even read a post on this forum about how they want to use these techniques in Germany. As if that makes what happened better. Abuse and torture are different words for the same thing. It is wrong, no matter who does it or where it happens. People do not want to use the word torture because of the strong negative connotations attached to the word and thereby downplay what happened. You can still believe that America is great and that Americans should be in Iraq without attempting to downplay the torture that happened because attempting to characterize it as just abuse or harrassment is doing just that.

To all the people here who believe that it was not torture and just abuse please explain to me what is required to cross over from abuse to torture. Where’s the magic line? If you are made to honestly believe that you are going to be killed, is that not torture? (How many investigations are going on regarding suspicious deaths?) If you are completely humiliated and degraded, is that not torture? What is the exact behaviour that is required before you would be willing to call it torture?

[dix2111]

ok the difference between abuse and torture
abuse is a smack in the head
torture is a 3/16 drill bit in the head

the difference is clear. the prisoners might have been tortured but i’m saying that i havent seen proof of actual torture
if they were actually tortured then people should be held accountable. if they were excessivly harrased or mistreated then people should be accountable but there are acceptable amounts of harsh treatment allowed in a prisoner of war camp.
they have information that you need in order to win the war. they dont want to give it to you. they should have just said pretty please but that might not have worked.
and if you think that piling up a bunch of butt naked people in a pile and laughing at there wienies is torture then you dont go out much.
it is a war and people should be aware of what happens in a war. unfortunitly people die and get mentally f*cked up.

by the way i didnt support the war in iraq but it just might turn out to be a good thing in the long run

[dix2111]

one more thing
while mopping the floor (which i consider torture) I had another thought.

was the abuse or mistreatment random or was it as punishment for breaking rules and regulations of the prison or was it to extract information.
if it was completly random and only done to amuse the soldiers then it was wrong and those reasponsible should get hammered
i think that is the main difference. I’m saying that the situation could excist where that kind of treatment is acceptable

[Spanky]

[quote=“dix2111”]ok the difference between abuse and torture
abuse is a smack in the head
torture is a 3/16 drill bit in the head[/quote]

What about being hit in the head repeatedly and being convinced that you are going to be killed? How many times can you hit someone and not call it torture? In fact, one of the oldest forms of torture was to just beat on a person until they collapsed. The Army is investigating a number of cases where prisoners have died under suspicious circumstances. Since they only hit them in the head repeatedly and didnt use a drill I guess by your definition that’s not torture. For your information, humiliation and degradation can constitute forms of torture, torture is just not physical. If you doubt it then take a tour of a women’s shelter or basically any social services office in any big city.

[butcher_boy]

Would you call child abuse torture?

[dix2111]

The Army is investigating a number of cases where prisoners have died under suspicious circumstances.

that is exactly what they should be doing. they should investigate the deaths and if found guilty then they could be charged with murder.

but murder is not the same as torture. in some states the murderer can not be executed unless they caused excessive and undure suffering on the victim.

my point is…
torture is a very serious word with a very powerfull meaning. if you apply it to everything that you find cruel and distastefull then you degrade the meaning of the word.
it’s like using the word “holocaust” too often.

it is sematics and it’s very important that you use these words correctly or they will lose the powerfull emotional thought that they are supposed to convey.

[quote]  What about being hit in the head repeatedly and being convinced that you are going to be killed? [/quote]

severe abuse

humiliation and degradation can constitute forms of torture, torture is just not physical.

you’re right. torture can be used to cause people great mental pain and anxiety but to using it in a military context would probably be a little different than how a kindergarten teacher would use it.
according to you definition i could rightly say that " living in taiwan is torture" nd the definition of the word would be corrrect.

I just asked my wife what she thought torture was and without a second thought she said “cutting open your tummy and opening the wound and pouringhoney it it and letting ants eat you alive”
I’ll be sleeping on the couch tonight

[wolf_reinhold]

Harpers Index wrote:

[quote]Ratio of the minimum number of beheadings by the Saudi government last year to those by Saudi terrorists so far this year : 50:1
[U.S. State Department/Amnesty International (N.Y.C.) ] [/quote]