Even in modern warfare there are times and places where bare hand fighting still matters. Here is an example from a Korean War Medal of Honor winner. Great story, great medic.
news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060329/ap_ … obit_bleak
The Korean War has a place in my heart as my dad fought in it and it is kind of known as the Forgotten War.
take care,
Brian
Yes Brian, this is true, but there there has been no systematic study of what ‘life & death’ hand-to-hand combat really means. There are all kinds of theories about what it is and isn’t, but no one really knows. Even the BJJ mantra, that 90% of fights go to the ground, is an old wives tale based on street corner rumours. Different militaries have different systems of hand-to-hand fighting that are based on different and incompatible philosophies of fighting.
Who really has any idea what works in a ‘life & death’ fight?
[quote=“Eton Smegma”]Yes Brian, this is true, but there there has been no systematic study of what ‘life & death’ hand-to-hand combat really means. There are all kinds of theories about what it is and isn’t, but no one really knows. Even the BJJ mantra, that 90% of fights go to the ground, is an old wives tale based on street corner rumours. Different militaries have different systems of hand-to-hand fighting that are based on different and incompatible philosophies of fighting.
Who really has any idea what works in a ‘life & death’ fight?[/quote]Eton Smegma -
Not to be pedantic but you are incorrect in these statements.
There have been, and still are, a number of techniques, which have been refined in actual combat situations - not in the dojo, squared circle, UFC Octagon or keyboard arena.
The intent and result of these trchniques are simple. Kil the person as fast as possible, because that is what the other person is trying to do to you.
No fancy katas, no flashy moves, no pretty belts or costumes. Just kicks, strikes, gouges, pokes and grabs to incapacitate and dispatch the other person.
And yes, these have been studied and taught for many many years.
Reference Colonel Rex Applegate and his “Kill or Get Killed” book and his cohort W. E. Fairbairn in his “Get Tough” booklet.
Two rather old, but still valuable examples of methods for action in serious social situations.
These two gentleman, among many many others in the past and present, have studied and taught these methods with quite good results. Unles you are on the receiving end… 
Both of the referenced books are available as free pdf dl’s on the internet.
[quote=“TainanCowboy”][quote=“Eton Smegma”]Yes Brian, this is true, but there there has been no systematic study of what ‘life & death’ hand-to-hand combat really means. There are all kinds of theories about what it is and isn’t, but no one really knows. Even the BJJ mantra, that 90% of fights go to the ground, is an old wives tale based on street corner rumours. Different militaries have different systems of hand-to-hand fighting that are based on different and incompatible philosophies of fighting.
Who really has any idea what works in a ‘life & death’ fight?[/quote]Eton Smegma -
Not to be pedantic but you are incorrect in these statements.
There have been, and still are, a number of techniques, which have been refined in actual combat situations - not in the dojo, squared circle, UFC Octagon or keyboard arena.
The intent and result of these trchniques are simple. Kil the person as fast as possible, because that is what the other person is trying to do to you.
No fancy katas, no flashy moves, no pretty belts or costumes. Just kicks, strikes, gouges, pokes and grabs to incapacitate and dispatch the other person.
And yes, these have been studied and taught for many many years.
Reference Colonel Rex Applegate and his “Kill or Get Killed” book and his cohort W. E. Fairbairn in his “Get Tough” booklet.
Two rather old, but still valuable examples of methods for action in serious social situations.
These two gentleman, among many many others in the past and present, have studied and taught these methods with quite good results. Unles you are on the receiving end…
Both of the referenced books are available as free pdf dl’s on the internet.[/quote]
Being an old, US military veteran, I can understand why you missed the point of my post. You seem unaware that the hand-to-hand fighting systems taught in the armies of different countries are quite different. The system you refer to is based in ju-jitsu. This is quite different from the system taught in th ROC, PRC, and ROK military, which is based on Tae Kwon Do.
If you compare the manuals you are talking about (which I have read) with how unarmed fighting is taught elsewhere, I am sure you’ll understand my point. I am also certain that Brian Kennedy knows what I am talking about.
Sometimes it’s a matter of what you CAN do and not how you do it.
[quote=“Eton Smegma”]Being an old, US military veteran, I can understand why you missed the point of my post. You seem unaware that the hand-to-hand fighting systems taught in the armies of different countries are quite different. The system you refer to is based in ju-jitsu. This is quite different from the system taught in th ROC, PRC, and ROK military, which is based on Tae Kwon Do.
If you compare the manuals you are talking about (which I have read) with how unarmed fighting is taught elsewhere, I am sure you’ll understand my point. I am also certain that Brian Kennedy knows what I am talking about.[/quote]Eton Smegna -
To avoid hijacking Mr. Kennedys quite honorable post, I will send you a PM.
Thanks 
And Mr. Monster is exactly correct.
There seems to be more confusion concerning my comment. I was not talking about a drunken parking lot brawl with an overweight doorman. The point of a military system of unarmed combat is quite different. These are general systems taught to men from a wide variety of backgrounds, some of whom may never have had a fist fight. They are intended to be used on the battlefield where they may be completely exhausted and almost certainly scared beyond belief. These are situations where even the smallest advantage may save your life.
My point is that unlike police gunfighting, there have no systematic studies of what actually happens in hand-to-hand combat.
By the way, Cowboy you are confused on another point. It is perfectly permissible in the UFC or Pride to kill your opponent. It is just a whole lot harder to do than quick fix books make it seem.
Out of ammo? Rifle butt to the face will work jest fine. Or “fix bayonet” and poke away. Mortal hand to hand combat is got to be really really scary. I’d go for the eyes first, then try to crush the throat. And yes, I’d try to take the action to the ground, but only in hand to hand, otherwise, I’d stay on my feet. Big guys get smaller on the ground.
But that’s me.
[quote=“jdsmith”]Out of ammo? Rifle butt to the face will work jest fine. Or “fix bayonet” and poke away. Mortal hand to hand combat is got to be really really scary. I’d go for the eyes first, then try to crush the throat. And yes, I’d try to take the action to the ground, but only in hand to hand, otherwise, I’d stay on my feet. Big guys get smaller on the ground.
But that’s me.[/quote]
This thread is going sideways but this comment makes me think back to my first fight and how fucking hard it was to actually hurt the other guy. Not because I lacked the physical force needed but my heart didn’t want it. I’ve been put in situations where I’ve had to hurt others in my adult life and I’ll tell you this, it’s hard in the moment to smash someone open, stick my fingers in eyes to feel the squish, break bones or keep hitting them untill they’re not moving. Especially after the fact when you take a step back and realise the job. In the last two years, I found myself at a loss as to if I could ever do that sorta shit again. Let’s just say I’ve had a humbling experience where I wasn’t the victor this time around. Makes ya think. But thank God some of the past actually saved my ass.
From the Medal of Honour website:
[quote]As Bleak rushed to them, a bullet struck him in the leg. He dressed the wound and returned to the others. Two of the wounded soldiers could walk on their own, but the third had to be hoisted by Bleak onto his broad shoulders. As they headed down the hill, two Chinese soldiers charged Bleak with bayonets. He quickly lowered the soldier from his shoulders to the ground then focused on the enemy. Dodging their thrusts, Bleak managed to get a huge hand around each mans head, then slammed both heads together, cracking their skulls. He again picked up the American and continued on to safety.[/quote] 
Is this even remotely possible?
HG
[quote=“Huang Guang Chen”]From the Medal of Honour website:
[quote]As Bleak rushed to them, a bullet struck him in the leg. He dressed the wound and returned to the others. Two of the wounded soldiers could walk on their own, but the third had to be hoisted by Bleak onto his broad shoulders. As they headed down the hill, two Chinese soldiers charged Bleak with bayonets. He quickly lowered the soldier from his shoulders to the ground then focused on the enemy. Dodging their thrusts, Bleak managed to get a huge hand around each mans head, then slammed both heads together, cracking their skulls. He again picked up the American and continued on to safety.[/quote]
Is this even remotely possible?
HG[/quote]
Yes. Adreneline and Fury.
[quote=“M0NSTER”][quote=“jdsmith”]Out of ammo? Rifle butt to the face will work jest fine. Or “fix bayonet” and poke away. Mortal hand to hand combat is got to be really really scary. I’d go for the eyes first, then try to crush the throat. And yes, I’d try to take the action to the ground, but only in hand to hand, otherwise, I’d stay on my feet. Big guys get smaller on the ground.
But that’s me.[/quote]
This thread is going sideways but this comment makes me think back to my first fight and how fucking hard it was to actually hurt the other guy. Not because I lacked the physical force needed but my heart didn’t want it. I’ve been put in situations where I’ve had to hurt others in my adult life and I’ll tell you this, it’s hard in the moment to smash someone open, stick my fingers in eyes to feel the squish, break bones or keep hitting them untill they’re not moving. Especially after the fact when you take a step back and realise the job. In the last two years, I found myself at a loss as to if I could ever do that sorta shit again. Let’s just say I’ve had a humbling experience where I wasn’t the victor this time around. Makes ya think. But thank God some of the past actually saved my ass.[/quote]
Monster, this is a good point. But this also shows the difference in fighting someone and trying to kill them. It probably also explains why lots of guys cry on the battlefield after they do kill someone at close range, or in HTH combat. There’s a certain sense of finality, I’m sure. I wouldn’t know, and hope I never do.
[quote=“jdsmith”][quote=“M0NSTER”][quote=“jdsmith”]Out of ammo? Rifle butt to the face will work jest fine. Or “fix bayonet” and poke away. Mortal hand to hand combat is got to be really really scary. I’d go for the eyes first, then try to crush the throat. And yes, I’d try to take the action to the ground, but only in hand to hand, otherwise, I’d stay on my feet. Big guys get smaller on the ground.
But that’s me.[/quote]
This thread is going sideways but this comment makes me think back to my first fight and how fucking hard it was to actually hurt the other guy. Not because I lacked the physical force needed but my heart didn’t want it. I’ve been put in situations where I’ve had to hurt others in my adult life and I’ll tell you this, it’s hard in the moment to smash someone open, stick my fingers in eyes to feel the squish, break bones or keep hitting them untill they’re not moving. Especially after the fact when you take a step back and realise the job. In the last two years, I found myself at a loss as to if I could ever do that sorta shit again. Let’s just say I’ve had a humbling experience where I wasn’t the victor this time around. Makes ya think. But thank God some of the past actually saved my ass.[/quote]
Monster, this is a good point. But this also shows the difference in fighting someone and trying to kill them. It probably also explains why lots of guys cry on the battlefield after they do kill someone at close range, or in HTH combat. There’s a certain sense of finality, I’m sure. I wouldn’t know, and hope I never do.[/quote]
I’ve never been in a fight like that where I didn’t cry afterwards.
This thread is going sideways. My point–which I may not have made clear–is simply to honor a regular guy who did a very outstanding thing under the worst possible conditions. And to kind of pay some respect to all the Korean War vets, my dad included.
Well, in any event glad it provided some interest.
take care,
Brian
[quote=“brianlkennedy”]This thread is going sideways. My point–which I may not have made clear–is simply to honor a regular guy who did a very outstanding thing under the worst possible conditions. And to kind of pay some respect to all the Korean War vets, my dad included.
Well, in any event glad it provided some interest.
take care,
Brian[/quote]
My Uncle served in Korea, and was the most regular guy. That he could actually smile at all after that crap gets a big 
from me.
It’s a great story Brian, thanks. I’m sure there are stories of men who killed dozens if not hundreds of men in battle, but yes, there is something about the horror of doing it with your bare hands that makes one go “Wow.”
The lord your god calls bullshit on the bashing their heads together bit.
Bashing their heads together? That would be child’s play for someone who
[quote]During the battle, Bleak, a large man, saw a grenade bounce off a soldiers helmet and roll a few feet away. Without giving it a second thought, he threw himself at the soldier and they both tumbled to the ground, unhurt as the grenade exploded.
Three Chinese soldiers began firing at Bleak. After tackling the first and breaking his neck, Bleak used his massive hands to crush the windpipe of the second, then plunged his trench knife into the third mans chest. [/quote]
[quote=“sandman”]Bashing their heads together? That would be child’s play for someone who
[quote]During the battle, Bleak, a large man, saw a grenade bounce off a soldiers helmet and roll a few feet away. Without giving it a second thought, he threw himself at the soldier and they both tumbled to the ground, unhurt as the grenade exploded.
Three Chinese soldiers began firing at Bleak. After tackling the first and breaking his neck, Bleak used his massive hands to crush the windpipe of the second, then plunged his trench knife into the third mans chest. [/quote][/quote]
This probably all happened in about 20 seconds too.
On the subject of brutal hand-to-hand fighting, I’ve read up a lot on the Anglo-Zulu war (KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa, 1879) and I’m sure some of you, the Saffers and Brits at least, will have heard of the battles of Isandlwana and Rorke’s Drift.
Isandlwana was basically a massacre - of the British force, armed with the latest modern weaponry (breech loading rifles, artillery pieces, even a Gatling gun - one of the first ever in operation, I think). They were overwhelmed by the Zulu force, armed with cowhide shields and assegais (short, broad-bladed stabbing spears - ultimately it came down to hand to hand fighting, and the Zulu accounts* that I’ve read of the battle all talk of the remaining Brits either begging for mercy (they recieved none) or fighting tooth and claw, possessed with the desperation of a close and inevitable death with a spear through their bellies, with whatever they could get their hands on, if they had happened to lose their rifles/bayonets in the action. Being in that kind of situation - faced with the immediate inevitability of a very violent death, with death all around you, is something that none of us could possibly imagine…
Rorke’s Drift was a different story. A few hundred Brits held a small missionary outpost against a few thousand Zulus, who attacked in waves throughout the night - loads of hand-to-hand fighting, skewering on bayonets, the whole nightmare lit up only by the moon and the burning roof of the hospital building (which the Zulus had set on fire) . The soldiers who survived that, particularly the ones in the thick of the hand-to-hand fighting (a lot of whom won VCs) all suffered from severe forms of post-traumatic stress after the battle, from what accounts I’ve read.
True hand-to-hand combat, in a life and death situation, with death all around you, is possibly one of the most nightmarish things a human being could possibly experience. I’m sure the adrenalin and immediacy of death would make you capable of all sorts of superhuman acts… but at what cost to your sanity, and soul…
Peace. Sorry for the ramble, but it’s an interesting topic.
*Zulu accounts were the only ones of the final stages of the battle of Isandlwana as all of the Brits were wiped out.