Le Cordon Bleu kicked out

Also, it’s not that they’re being “kicked out” but that they’re being refused entry in the first place, or rather that the investors are being allowed in but not the teachers whose presence would justify the investment.

HK has a lot of experience being a world city (or trying to be one). In Mainland China they presumably had to engage in certain cultural practices at fancy restaurants and KTV’s (like everyone else there, foreign or not). As to why Taiwan is so fussy, perhaps it’s a matter of introspection and resistance to modernization.

From the UDN article:

教育部表示,春節前已與勞動部協商是否能擴大法令解釋,放寬讓藍帶廚師來台授課,也已研擬「高教創新轉型條例」,以專法方式鬆綁高教各種限制,希望能夠被新政府列為優先處理法案,讓高教儘速轉型。

高餐大校長容繼業表示,相信政府各部會都願意幫忙促成,但只感嘆「高餐大走得太前面」,希望能在四月間開課,首期只招收六十四人,但已有四百名海內外學生報名。

[i]The Ministry of Education indicated that it had already negotiated with the Ministry of Labor before Spring Festival on the question of whether or not the interpretation of the laws and regulations could be expanded, to make room for Cordon Bleu’s chefs to teach in Taiwan, and had also looked into drafting a “Higher Education Innovation and Transformation Act”, a special legal method of relaxing restrictions on various types of higher education, which the new government will hopefully see as a priority, so that higher education can be transformed as soon as possible.

National Kaohsiung University of Hospitality & Tourism [the joint venture partner] president Rong Jiye indicated that he trusts each ministry will help to facilitate things, but he sighed that “NKUHT is too far ahead,” and they hope to start classes in April with 64 students in the first semester, though over 400 local and overseas students have registered.[/i]

This could spook investors for years to come.

That’s a good question. The law allows for exceptions (ESA 46.1.11’s “other specialized workers” or the 46.1.1 to 46.1.6 “white collar” regulations’ Art. 4 “other work”), if they’re not registered under “culture, sports, and recreation” (also in white collar Art. 4).

It may be that the labor authorities in some cities/counties are more open to foreign cuisine than their counterparts in Kaohsiung, but I suspect it’s like the kindergarten situation – a mix of foreign spouses and blind eyes being turned. :unamused:

I was thinking something like that, too. I could be quite wrong, but I think that that route looks at least somewhat hopeful.

Now, I’m well aware that the following has “tl;dr (too long; didn’t read)” written all over it (in fact, I’m not sure I read all of it), but here goes:

From the [color=#000080]Employment Services Act[/color], in pertinent part:

[quote]Article [color=#000080]46[/color]. Unless otherwise provided for in the present Act, the work [color=#000080]a Foreign Worker[/color] may be employed to engage in within the territory of the Republic of China [color=#000080]is limited to the following[/color]:

[color=#000080]1[/color]. [color=#000080]Specialized or technical work[/color]. . . .[/quote]
wda.gov.tw/en/home.jsp?page … 1304190012

From “[color=#000080]Qualifications and Criteria Standards[/color] for foreigners undertaking the jobs specified under Article [color=#000080]46.1.1[/color] to 46.1.6 of the Employment Service Act,” in pertinent part:

[quote]Article 4. [color=#000080]“Specialized or technical work”[/color] mentioned in Article [color=#000080]46.1.1[/color] of this Act refers to the following work that requires specialized knowledge, expertise, or techniques for which a foreigner is hired to perform:

. . .

  1. [color=#000080]Culture[/color], sports, and recreation services;

. . .

15.[color=#000080] Other work[/color] designated as per the joint consultation of the [color=#000080]central governing authority and the central competent authorities[/color].[/quote]
law.moj.gov.tw/eng/LawClass/LawA … e=N0090031

[color=#000080]Going back to the Employment Services Act:[/color]

laws.mol.gov.tw/eng/EngContent.asp?MsgID=103

Please note that [color=#000080]the Council of Labor Affairs has been replaced by the Ministry of Labor[/color].

I guess–and it’s only a guess–that the term “central governing authority” in the[color=#000080] Qualifications and Criteria Standards[/color] refers to central authorities other than the Ministry of Labor.

The [color=#000080]Qualifications and Criteria Standards[/color] contain certain conditions, of which I’ll name only one, although I don’t really know which is the best or most appropriate “conditions” route for Le Cordon Bleu and NKUHT to take:

[quote]Article 5. Other than meeting with other criteria specified in the Standards, [color=#000080]foreign employees have to acquire one of the following qualifications[/color] before undertaking the jobs/assignments specified here above:

  1. Acquire [color=#000080]certificates or[/color] operation [color=#000080]qualifications[/color] through the procedures specified in the [color=#000080]Examinations of Specific Profession and Technician Guidelines.[/color][/quote]

I’m not a hundred percent sure of this, but in pertinent part, the text below appears to be what the Qualifications and Criteria Standards are referring to, or it appears to be something like it:

[quote][color=#000080]Examinations for Professional and Technical Personnel [/color]in Taiwan(ROC)

. . .

III. Important Features of Current Professional and Technical Examinations

. . .

  1. [color=#000080]Exemption[/color]

A system is in place for specially qualified persons that provides for partial or even full exemption from the requirement to pass the examinations in certain subjects. The three possible scenarios in this respect are:

1.The examinations must be taken in all subjects set out in the examination regulations.

2.Partial exemption is available to persons who have a certain verified professional experience in the subject, or certification from abroad. Each application is considered on its individual merits. At present, the partial exemption option is available only in Senior examinations for lawyers, accountants, social workers, architects and all disciplines of engineering.

3.[color=#000080]Full exemption is available to persons who are demonstrably in possession of the necessary qualifications through work experience and other special achievements.[/color] Each case is very carefully considered on its merits before the issuance of a certificate of qualification. There are at present some [color=#000080]68 disciplines[/color] in which a [color=#000080]full exemption[/color] from examination can be requested. [color=#000080]These include:[/color]
‧Senior examinations: lawyers, architects, all engineers, doctors of Chinese medicine, dietitians, clinical psychologists.
‧Senior & Junior examinations: all medical technicians and veterinary personnel.
‧Junior Examinations: land administration agents.
‧Special Examinations: fishing vessel crew, Ship Radio Personnel (GMDSS operators). [/quote]

The use of the word [color=#000080]“include”[/color] in the above text seems to imply that the list above is not exclusive, i. e., that it’s possible that other types of work may be exempted from the examination requirement. To continue with the Guidelines referred to (or I hope these are the Guidelines or a close approximation), in pertinent part:

[quote]7. Qualifications Review Committees

Persons with [color=#000080]qualifications and experience equivalent [/color]to the requirements of a [color=#000080]P/T Examination [presumably this means “Professional/Technical Examination”–charlie][/color] [color=#000080]may be exempt from examination in certain subjects[/color]. To assess applications for exemptions, the Ministry of Examination maintains[color=#000080] review committees for 13 professions, including lawyers, architects, engineers, etc. [/color]The Committees are consulted with regard to the policies, regulations and systems governing P/T examinations, and they review matters regarding candidate qualifications, applications for exemption, and qualifications screening scores. All Qualifications Review Committees first refer exemption applications to the governing agency of the occupation in question, then conduct a second review in light of that agency’ recommendations. At that point:

1.[color=#000080]if a total exemption is approved, the Ministry authorizes the issuance of a certificate of qualification and informs the governing agency; [/color]

2.if a partial exemption is approved, the candidate is informed of his or her status and attends the examination in the
remaining subjects;

3.if no exemption is approved, the candidate’s application materials are returned.[/quote]
wwwc.moex.gov.tw/english/content … enu_id=509

Within these Guidelines, there is a[color=#000080] special set of rules for foreigners[/color], but the foreigner guidelines seem to include the non-foreigner guidelines:

[quote]IV: [color=#000080]Foreign Nationals taking Examinations for Professionals and Technical Personnel[/color] Under Article 24 of the Act:

1.Foreign nationals who wish to exercise a profession or technical occupation in the R.O.C. must pass the stipulated
examinations, and obtain the necessary licenses and approval from the competent authority. Other laws may also apply.

2.The categories of P/T examinations that may be taken by foreign nationals are determined by the Examination Yuan. [color=#000080]At present, the examinations open to foreigners include those for lawyers, accountants, architects, all engineers, physicians, doctors of Chinese Medicine, dentists, pharmacists, medical technologists, nurses, midwives, clinical psychologists, consulting psychologists, respiratory therapists, veterinarians, real estate appraisers, real estate brokers, insurance agents, tour guides. [/color]

3.[color=#000080]The regulations governing Professional and Technical Examinations apply mutatis mutandis to foreign nationals[/color] with regard to candidate qualifications, test subjects, [color=#000080]exemptions[/color], methods of examination, physical examinations, calculation of test scores, and qualification criteria.[/quote]

In summary–bearing in mind that I’m just speculating and wondering out loud–I wonder if it would be possible for NKUHT and/or Le Cordon Bleu to seek to have Le Cordon Bleu’s proposed work to be deemed either “specialized technical work” or “other work,” as yyy mentioned. And if it fits either of those two categories, I wonder if it would be possible for Le Cordon Bleu to opt for the examination route of qualifying its workers (rather than the routes of education, pre-existing certification, or experience), and then ask to be fully exempted from any examination. And I also wonder whether “[t]he categories of P/T examinations that may be taken by foreign nationals” can be augmented to include the kinds of work performed by Le Cordon Bleu.

Now, it may be that the professions of the Cordon Bleu personnel do not fit any of the 68 professions mentioned above, and it may be that none of the 13 review committees is applicable to this situation, and again there’s the problem of the “categories of P/T examinations that may be taken by foreign nationals,” but these problems look like administrative problems rather than legislative ones, so I wonder whether they could be worked around in a reasonable amount of time.

Thank you Charlie Jack for your (as always) thoughtful post. The Cordon Bleu guys should hire you as their lawyer!

The question of administrative, as opposed to legislative, problems reminds me all too vividly of an experience we had about a decade ago trying to set up a new academic organization in Taiwan. The byzantine rules (I suspect dating back to martial law–and attempts to control the assembly of people) required us to get signatures from a range of cities and counties to qualify as “national.” We duly collected the signatures and submitted our application for review–which went no-where for a very long time. Finally we received a response: we had collected signatures that had been signed vertically, which is what the “old form” required, but the government now wanted them signed horizontally as per the “new form” to follow some administrative change! We were stunned. Thankfully, after a few phone calls from the relevant trade office (aka de facto embassy) to higher levels, the application was finally passed.

Btw, there’s ample reason to get this done on the Taiwan side, given the demographic crisis facing universities and colleges, plus the push to develop a stronger service-oriented economy. I will be very surprised if–following some phone calls–the Cordon Bleu situation is not resolved.

Guy

[quote=“afterspivak”]Thank you Charlie Jack for your (as always) thoughtful post. The Cordon Bleu guys should hire you as their lawyer!

The question of administrative, as opposed to legislative, problems reminds me all too vividly of an experience we had about a decade ago trying to set up a new academic organization in Taiwan. The byzantine rules (I suspect dating back to martial law–and attempts to control the assembly of people) required us to get signatures from a range of cities and counties to qualify as “national.” We duly collected the signatures and submitted our application for review–which went no-where for a very long time. Finally we received a response: we had collected signatures that had been signed vertically, which is what the “old form” required, but the government now wanted them signed horizontally as per the “new form” to follow some administrative change! We were stunned. Thankfully, after a few phone calls from the relevant trade office (aka de facto embassy) to higher levels, the application was finally passed.

Btw, there’s ample reason to get this done on the Taiwan side, given the demographic crisis facing universities and colleges, plus the push to develop a stronger service-oriented economy. I will be very surprised if–following some phone calls–the Cordon Bleu situation is not resolved.

Guy[/quote]

Thanks for the kind words, afterspivak! And thanks for your patience if you read that whole thing. I think my post may have gone pretty far out on a limb, though, in terms of what the likely situation is.

Holy smokes! I think I would have been stunned, too.

Like you, I think it will be a good thing if the situation is resolved happily and the government gives the go-ahead to the Cordon Bleu folks and the students who want to take the classes.

Maybe I’m missing something, but this organization is hosted by or affiliated with the University? So there are no other foreign teachers teaching something other than a language? If there are, why wouldn’t these culinary teachers be accepted under the same premise?

[quote=“Icon”]

Isn’t this like against WTO or something?[/quote]

As someone with some trade policy experience (worked in government for CETA, TPP and other negs), I’ll weigh in.

The WTO is often misunderstand. It it not that comprehensive or quick in dealing with things (dispute resolution procedures can take years and years. It would hardly be worth it unless the loses were in the tens of millions of dollars :2cents: ). Because of these inefficiencies and the stalled Doha round, many countries prefer bilaterals these days, which complicates things for Taiwan because of its international status (many countries don’t want to negotiate FTAs with Taiwan). Furthermore, in many trade negotiations, public educational provisions are often carved out (i.e. excluded) anyways. :2cents:

One exception is TISA. Depending on how TISA progresses (which Taiwan is negotiating), it may go further in liberalizing services than anything currently under WTO. But’s it not concluded yet: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_in_ … _Agreement

It would be my opinion that Taiwan is perfectly onside with its WTO obligations with such actions because they are not that comprehensive. :2cents:

Agreements such as NAFTA, CETA, and some internal agreements are way, way more comprehensive than the WTO (which is for 180+ members so there are loads and loads of carve outs, minor tariff reductions etc.)

According to the UDN article’s infographic:

[i]Cordon Bleu comes to Taiwan to establish a school. There are two routes, and each one is blocked.

A. Come to Taiwan to establish a school:
Under current laws it can’t be established; the proposed “free economic demonstration zone” would relax the restrictions, but the Legislative Yuan hasn’t passed it.

B. Joint venture with NKUHT:
Under the restrictions of the Company Act, NKUHT is neither a legal person nor a natural person, so it can’t establish a company.
Cordon Bleu comes to Taiwan to establish a company.
NKUHT invests in shares of the school foundation.
Under the Company Act, a joint venture recruiting students can only be in the form of a buxiban.
A buxiban is subject to different regulations such as fire safety and zoning, so the Cordon Bleu culinary arts center changes its construction and name plate and can’t have the same address as NKUHT.
The Kaohsiung City Government issues a usage license [使用執照].
Under the Employment Service Act, foreign teachers cannot teach culinary arts but only foreign languages.

Sources: Ministry of Education, NKUHT, and Lai Dingming.
Graphic by Lin Xiuzi.
UDN[/i]

I can’t find the buxiban requirement in the Company Act, so it may just be an MOE thing (i.e. they don’t want anyone engaging in group education outside the box of the established types of schools).

I suppose there’s a way around it: send Taiwanese chefs out of Taiwan for teacher training. No need to go all the way to France if there’s room in HK or Shanghai… :doh: Like I said, protectionism. :2cents:

How about a course called “French for Culinary Purposes: A Montessoriesque Approach”?

How about a course called “French for Culinary Purposes: A Montessoriesque Approach”?[/quote]
Imagine a Cordon Bleu chef coming to Forumosa and asking for help because his passport isn’t from a French-speaking country… :doh: :doh: :doh:

How about a course called “French for Culinary Purposes: A Montessoriesque Approach”?[/quote]
Imagine a Cordon Bleu chef coming to Forumosa and asking for help because his passport isn’t from a French-speaking country… :doh: :doh: :doh:[/quote]

New territory! :slight_smile:

Oh, and thanks for the translation of the United Daily News piece.

There is an article today’s China Post about this matter, with the title “Protectionism is killing Taiwan’s competitiveness”

chinapost.com.tw/taiwan/anal … ism-is.htm

They fixed it for them… and Forumosa failed to notice!

mol.gov.tw/announcement/2099/25122/

Summary:
After a discussion with various parties, as of 9 Mar 2016, a buxiban established by a company (a legal company not a “company”) can recruit foreign culinary arts teachers who are internationally certified by international culinary arts organizations, have five years of foreign experience in the food & beverage industry, and have two years of teaching experience at famous (知名) international culinary arts organizations.

They name CB and Japan’s 東京製菓學校 (Tokyo Confectionery School?) as examples of famous schools that will now be able to set up shop in Taiwan.

The legal pathway is the expansion of the scope of ESA 46.1.1’s “specialized and technical work”.

1 Like

[quote=“yyy”]They fixed it for them… and Forumosa failed to notice! :blush:
[/quote]

No it didn’t! You posted an update. That’s how Forumosa works!

[quote=“BigJohn”][quote=“yyy”]They fixed it for them… and Forumosa failed to notice! :blush:
[/quote]

No it didn’t! You posted an update. That’s how Forumosa works![/quote]
But more than a month late! :cry:

If I understood it correctly, it looks more like The Condom Blew’s fault. If they intended to have an activity different from language teaching… well, may be they should have made the paperwork different too…?

They very likely relied on locals to prepare the paperwork. Quite a few Taiwanese accountants and attorneys have the habit of looking for solutions in the grey areas and sneak through regulations. With locals that usually ends without consequences, but obviously Adogah will be more obvious.

Le Cordon Bleu is back on again.

http://focustaiwan.tw/news/aedu/201605300030.aspx

Excellent news: win-win for all, including those of us who like pastries! :slight_smile:

Guy