LEGAL way to work with local artists/producers/talent?

Work Working in Taiwan
21

[quote=“Hokwongwei”]
I’m keenly interested in this too, because now I no longer reside in Taiwan yet hope to continue providing translation services to Taiwanese clients. It seems I should be able to do this – they just report the expenditures as they do when working with a foreign firm. Why would the situation be any different for someone who is simply visiting Taiwan and providing the same service?

For example, if I am a legal consultant based in the US, I can give a consultation to a Taiwanese firm with no problems; but if I am a legal consultant who is visiting Taiwan on a visitor’s visa, and during that trip I do some consulting, this is technically illegal? I don’t understand how that makes sense.[/quote]

Seemed like Brother Feiren explained this more than eloquently here:

[quote=“Feiren”]
If a foreigner is physically in Taiwan and providing services to anyone, the foreigner is working. A foreigner cannot work in Taiwan without permission from the Ministry of Labor. When you are physically in the US and providing services to a Taiwanese client, you are working in the US and you are subject to US employment law. When you are physically in Taiwan and providing services, you are subject to Taiwanese employment law. We live in a world where borders matter less than they did, but laws governing employment and the movement of people are still very firmly rooted in the old world of nation states. They are likely to stay that way for the foreseeable future.[/quote]

It ain’t about the work you do*, it’s about
A. Where you get paid
B. Where you reside

[quote=“Hokwongwei”]So basically any business meeting that occurs in Taiwan is technically illegal???
OK, how’s this as a hypothetical: My boss and I were traveling in Taiwan (him on business, me on vacation) and he had to have a meeting that he wanted me to call into so I could take notes. I did that from a hotel in Nantou while he was in Taichung. Is that technically violating the law?
What about, let’s say, foreign body guards for visiting celebrities? Does each body guard need a work permit?[/quote]

I’m sure you are simply posing hypotheticals in extremis.
In case I’m wrong, here it is, nice and slow.
7th Grade Civics in a nutshell.

If we’re assuming that none of the people in your example are being employed locally, and are in the country legally, it wouldn’t be illegal. Like this actually has to be explained.

The OP’s talking about working for pay in Taiwan.
That is, again, going real slow here for you, providing labour/services and collecting remuneration from a local entity for doing so.

The government (here, AND in the US, AND in Dubai, etc.) has certain conditions to which it requires everyone (including, but not limited to, non-citizens) to adhere in order to engage in such activities.
There are two issues here.

First, taxation.
Any government has the right to require anyone present in the country to contribute tax revenue since, it’s assumed, every person there will have the opportunity to avail themselves of, for example, maintained roads, parks, bus benches, and jogging paths, as well as public health maintenance, police/fire/ambulance services, and (relative) protection form invading hostiles, all of which are fully or partially financed by such revenue.
Again, I stress the OP’s professed desire to do all this legally.
Naturally, there are craploads of things that can be done to avoid taxes, but that isn’t what he asked.
As for you complaining that you should be able to make a living without paying taxes, well, congratulations.
You’re a 1970s Taipei County trading company laoban. :thumbsup:

Second, residency
This is considerably less logical, but equally unavoidable.
Every country exercises immigration quotas and standards.
Most of these are, at base, motivated by intangibles like xenophobia, chauvinism, isolationism, protectionism, and, of course, straight up racism.
Please note that Taiwan has by no means a lock on this kind of policy.
Every country in the world exercises some level of this, especially since the middle of the last century.
Check the forums for what some of the ordeals my UK-born brothers have had to endure to get their long-time wives (and mothers of their children) to join them when returning home.

As far as policies not being in step with the 21st century, well, that’s kind of bollocks too.
What that really means is “I thought I’d figured out a way to use the Internet to fuck the government out of my tax dollars but now they’re making it hard for me.”
Which is fine, as long as you’re willing to get a cash bill for calling the cops when someone hits you on the head and takes your wallet, or to give the emergency operator a valid credit card when you call because the neighbor’s house is on fire, or to pay a steep admission fee for you and your kids to visit your corner park.

I think most Revenue departments are savvy enough to know they can’t realistically regulate the ebb and flow of Internet Bucks, so they don’t really try.
They just (mostly rightly) assume that sooner or later, you’re going to need to spend it, and that’s where they can pinch your cheating ass.

*I know, the deal where they export dudes for playing music for free, but that’s more of a residency than revenue issue at its core

22

The reason I ask is that I still do translations for Taiwanese clients (I live in the US); if I happened to be working on a project while visiting Taiwan, this would technically violate the law, no? (It’s actually all moot since I have a spousal ARC, but I’m just throwing hypotheticals out there to get an understanding.)

23

No, it wouldn’t matter if you were just visiting (legally) and were still getting paid in The Yewess.

BUT note, that is not the same as what the OhPee is describing.

24

Here’s the catch: the money goes into a Taiwan account.

25

No catch, you have the account because you have an ARC, and you no doubt get taxed on that income prior to its deposit, once again, you’re operating outside your hypothetical, so your actual experience, or mine, or Joe Bag of 小籠包’s, in no way apply to the OP.

I fail to see how this is germane to the thread.

26

Because my ARC will lapse when I fail to renew it, and then things will become complicated.

27

And then you can either get your (ROC ID-holding, one assumes) spouse to open an account for you here, or you can (maybe) get it deposited to your US account, at which point one assumes you will have the IRS to deal with when you want to use any of it to buy gum.

You still have the advantages of
A. Being married to a local person
B. Not requiring residency

Neither of which that Friesan fella has at his disposal, according to the parameters of his original query.

28

[quote=“Feiren”][quote=“yyy”]Afaik pure language study is okay a la Article 31:

Should a foreign student as referred to in Article 30 been officially enrolled in a school to take courses for 1 semester or more in a division, department or graduate institute thereof or to take language course(s) for one year or more, and should the school where he/she is enrolled in acknowledge the existence of any of the following factual situations, the said foreign student may engage in jobs relevant to the course(s) he/she has take and the language he/she has learned:

I think there’s a thread somewhere that says you need to make sure your school is on the approved list.[/quote]

Note that the English version of Article 31 is not current. See the Chinese version. A school may permit a student who demonstrates need to work when he enrolls. I’m not sure that all schools will actually permit this and I know that some schools restrict students to working on campus.[/quote]
The latest version I have in both languages is dated 2014/03/28 (103/03/28). The MOJ’s law database is barely functional today (as usual), so I can’t check for a newer version. :cry:

Edit: Now it’s working, and it has a 104/08/06 (2015/08/06) version up in Chinese, 2015/03/03 in English, but Article 31 seems to be the same. Here it is in full:

前條外國留學生正式入學修習科、系、所課程，或學習語言課程一年以上
，且經就讀學校認定具下列事實之一者，得從事與其所修習課程與語言有
關之工作：
一、其財力無法繼續維持其學業及生活，並能提出具體證明。
二、就讀學校之教學研究單位須外國留學生協助參與工作。
三、與本身修習課程有關，須從事校外實習。
外國留學生符合下列資格之一者，不受前項規定之限制：
一、具特殊語文專長，並經教育部專案核准，入學後得於各大專校院附設
語文中心或外國在華文教機構附設之語文中心兼任外國語文教師。
二、就讀研究所，並經就讀學校同意從事與修習課業有關之研究工作。

Should a foreign student as referred to in Article 30 been officially enrolled in a school to take courses for 1 semester or more in a division, department or graduate institute thereof or to take language course(s) for one year or more, and should the school where he/she is enrolled in acknowledge the existence of any of the following factual situations, the said foreign student may engage in jobs relevant to the course(s) he/she has take and the language he/she has learned:
1.It is proven by concrete evidence that the financial situation of the said foreign student is unable to continuously sustain his/her studies and cost of living.
2.The teaching or researching unit of the school where the said foreign student is enrolled is in need of his/her assistance and participation in teaching or researching work.
3.The said foreign student has to engage in off-campus practical training related to the course(s) he/she is taking.
Foreign students who meet one of the following qualifications are not restricted by the provisions as referred to in the preceding paragraph:
1.Foreign students with exceptional specialty in a foreign language, with the ad hoc approval by the Ministry of Education, after his/her enrollment in the school, to work on a part-time basis as a teacher in that language in a subsidiary language center affiliated with a University/College or with a foreign culture and education organization stationed in the Republic of China.
2.Foreign students enrolled in a graduate institute and have been approved by the school where the said foreign students are enrolled in to conduct relevant research work.

29

[quote=“Rocket”]

[quote=“Hokwongwei”]So basically any business meeting that occurs in Taiwan is technically illegal???
OK, how’s this as a hypothetical: My boss and I were traveling in Taiwan (him on business, me on vacation) and he had to have a meeting that he wanted me to call into so I could take notes. I did that from a hotel in Nantou while he was in Taichung. Is that technically violating the law?
What about, let’s say, foreign body guards for visiting celebrities? Does each body guard need a work permit?[/quote]

I’m sure you are simply posing hypotheticals in extremis.[/quote]
Bodyguards may be extreme for your typical translator or teacher, but it’s still a reasonable question.

In some countries there’s a list of activities/situations that are formally exempt from the definition of “work” for work permit/immigration purposes, to create a welcoming business/living environment. For example, you can paint at home as a hobby, but if you regularly sell your paintings then it’s considered work. In some cases you can perform certain activities if you have a business visa (or whatever they call it in whatever country), completely separate from having a work permit etc. For example, you can participate in meetings on a short-term basis, but you can’t stay on as a secretary for a year. Even Mainland China has this kind of system, in theory.

I would like to think Taiwan has something similar, not just a gentlemen’s agreement not to arrest you for that one time you (hypothetically) took notes at a meeting. Have you asked the MOL?

Unfortunately for the OP, if this kind of exemption does exist, it probably won’t cover the kind of/length of work he wants to do.

30

You can attend business meetings if you are here for business on a visitor visa or make a visa free entry.

I have no idea how foreign bodyguards get permission to work here legally. Working in security is definitely not something you can get a work permit to do. I suspect that they simply come in with visa free entry and work illegally. It’s possible that they could be here to perform contractual services for a Taiwanese company–there is special rule for this.

31

Well put and nice reading :wink:. Makes total sense.

[quote]As far as policies not being in step with the 21st century, well, that’s kind of bollocks too.
What that really means is “I thought I’d figured out a way to use the Internet to fuck the government out of my tax dollars but now they’re making it hard for me.”
Which is fine, as long as you’re willing to get a cash bill for calling the cops when someone hits you on the head and takes your wallet, or to give the emergency operator a valid credit card when you call because the neighbor’s house is on fire, or to pay a steep admission fee for you and your kids to visit your corner park.

I think most Revenue departments are savvy enough to know they can’t realistically regulate the ebb and flow of Internet Bucks, so they don’t really try.
They just (mostly rightly) assume that sooner or later, you’re going to need to spend it, and that’s where they can pinch your cheating ass.
[/quote]

You’re absolutely right. But when I mentioned the “not being up to date with the 21st century” it had to do with the status of freelancing, and the difficulty of doing that legally (including paying taxes in the country where the work is performed!). I simply have the problem of working in a business where the last ten years 95% of official businesses have turned into freelancers. Studios became smaller studios, which in turn became home studios. Employment for a company is extremely rare. I don’t mind this. It’s the way the world goes I guess. The only thing that that means is that in music production and writing, composition, mixing and mastering the probability of finding a job (and not creating one yourself) anywhere is just so small.

Therefore, I will have to try to get any other kind of work, and in turn have a number of years set out to somehow get an official residency? which would allow me to eventually freelance as a Taiwanese local could? (I’m still assuming here, because I haven’t been able to find anyone who could confirm me this is actually 100% legal for them too).

:unamused:

32

[quote=“Dikkiedik”]
You’re absolutely right. But when I mentioned the “not being up to date with the 21st century” it had to do with the status of freelancing, and the difficulty of doing that legally (including paying taxes in the country where the work is performed!). I simply have the problem of working in a business where the last ten years 95% of official businesses have turned into freelancers.[/quote]

This is not really the case here, however.

[quote=“Dikkiedik”]Therefore, I will have to try to get any other kind of work, and in turn have a number of years set out to somehow get an official residency? which would allow me to eventually freelance as a Taiwanese local could? (I’m still assuming here, because I haven’t been able to find anyone who could confirm me this is actually 100% legal for them too).

:unamused:[/quote]

As far as freelancing goes, IF you have legal residency WITH an open work permit (as with a JFRV, the “spousal” visa, or an APRC, the “permanent” resident visa, or, heaven forbid, you surrender your present passport and become an ROC citizen :astonished: [copious details regarding all of which are readily available right here on this very World Wide Web Information Highway Web Site here]) then you can, technically, do so.
Now, as I mentioned here before, “freelancer” is a bit of an anomaly, “self employed” would be a more accurate description, since you’d need to actually establish yourself as a commercial entity with a registered taxation number.

BUT more importantly, local employers are pretty freaked out by this model anyway, as I also mentioned, so individual performers are almost universally under contract to agents, with whom most, if not all, engagers deal with exclusively, for a variety of reasons, much as with the Union situation in many Western countries.
So even if you’re here legally, just walking into some place, as just a guy, with your zither (balalaika??) over your shoulder and trying to pick up a paying gig is unlikely to be met with success.

Again, it’s not my intention to just pee all over your Gouda here, but you wouldn’t be the first guy to end up at the airport heading home broke and pissed off because nobody warned you ahead of time.

33

[quote=“yyy”]

Edit: Now it’s working, and it has a 104/08/06 (2015/08/06) version up in Chinese, 2015/03/03 in English, but Article 31 seems to be the same. Here it is in full:

前條外國留學生正式入學修習科、系、所課程，或學習語言課程一年以上
，且經就讀學校認定具下列事實之一者，得從事與其所修習課程與語言有
關之工作：
一、其財力無法繼續維持其學業及生活，並能提出具體證明。
二、就讀學校之教學研究單位須外國留學生協助參與工作。
三、與本身修習課程有關，須從事校外實習。
外國留學生符合下列資格之一者，不受前項規定之限制：
一、具特殊語文專長，並經教育部專案核准，入學後得於各大專校院附設
語文中心或外國在華文教機構附設之語文中心兼任外國語文教師。
二、就讀研究所，並經就讀學校同意從事與修習課業有關之研究工作。

Should a foreign student as referred to in Article 30 been officially enrolled in a school to take courses [color=#FF0000]for 1 semester or more[/color] in a division, department or graduate institute thereof or to take language course(s) for one year or more, and should the school where he/she is enrolled in acknowledge the existence of any of the following factual situations, the said foreign student may engage in jobs relevant to the course(s) he/she has take and the language he/she has learned:
1.It is proven by concrete evidence that the financial situation of the said foreign student is unable to continuously sustain his/her studies and cost of living.
2.The teaching or researching unit of the school where the said foreign student is enrolled is in need of his/her assistance and participation in teaching or researching work.
3.The said foreign student has to engage in off-campus practical training related to the course(s) he/she is taking.
Foreign students who meet one of the following qualifications are not restricted by the provisions as referred to in the preceding paragraph:
1.Foreign students with exceptional specialty in a foreign language, with the ad hoc approval by the Ministry of Education, after his/her enrollment in the school, to work on a part-time basis as a teacher in that language in a subsidiary language center affiliated with a University/College or with a foreign culture and education organization stationed in the Republic of China.
2.Foreign students enrolled in a graduate institute and have been approved by the school where the said foreign students are enrolled in to conduct relevant research work.[/quote]

前條外國留學生[color=#FF0000]正式入學[/color]修習科、系、所課程

I think ‘one semester or more more’ is missing from the Chinese. The rest looks the same,

34

[quote]As far as freelancing goes, IF you have legal residency WITH an open work permit (as with a JFRV, the “spousal” visa, or an APRC, the “permanent” resident visa, or, heaven forbid, you surrender your present passport and become an ROC citizen :astonished: [copious details regarding all of which are readily available right here on this very World Wide Web Information Highway Web Site here]) then you can, technically, do so.
Now, as I mentioned here before, “freelancer” is a bit of an anomaly, “self employed” would be a more accurate description, since you’d need to actually establish yourself as a commercial entity with a registered taxation number.[/quote]

Got it! Self employed it is then.

[quote]BUT more importantly, local employers are pretty freaked out by this model anyway, as I also mentioned, so individual performers are almost universally under contract to agents, with whom most, if not all, engagers deal with exclusively, for a variety of reasons, much as with the Union situation in many Western countries.
So even if you’re here legally, just walking into some place, as just a guy, with your zither (balalaika??) over your shoulder and trying to pick up a paying gig is unlikely to be met with success.[/quote]

Ok. I will try to find out what kind of agents there are. Just as a note, as soon as people talk about musicians people tend to sway to the zither/balalaika thing like you mentioned. Not that I have not zithered or balalaika’d (?) my way around the world, but I started this thread about being a producer for artists, and working closely with other producers. So I’m not trying to get my own music on stage, or perform as an individual. I’m aiming to sit down with other producers, mixing engineers and managers to pump out tracks for other artist in East Asia. The word “agent” simply sounds like an artist/booking kind of deal. Would be good to learn that this could be something way more flexible in Taiwan. Thanks!

[quote]
Again, it’s not my intention to just pee all over your Gouda here, but you wouldn’t be the first guy to end up at the airport heading home broke and pissed off because nobody warned you ahead of time.[/quote]

That’s why I’m really trying to get the picture straight beforehand. It’s good to have it straight with no sugarcoating. I’m just here for the legalities and facts of the situation. I have enough experience in starting from scratch in several countries/continents to know what the ramifications could be expectationwise. Please note also that I would be going for the country and culture as much as for trying to make a living. Those two are completely intertwined. :discodance:

35

[quote=“Feiren”]Having a work permit as a student effectively allows you to freelance for up to 16 hours a week.
[/quote]

Is this true? You can freelance with a student visa or working holiday, but not a work permit and ARC?
If so, then why not just go for a Mandarin course while freelancing, build up a network and see what happens down the track? It seems like you can study Chinese for at least a year straight, as scholarships are awarded for up to a year. It’s all on here somewhere too. Courses start quarterly and prices vary considerably at the approved institutions.
Good luck mate!

36

I would not worry so much about the legal aspect until you can get something going. It’s kind of useless to try to do everything legal, before you know something will happen. And if you do meet the right people where you can do things on a scale that it would be needed to do things legally. Those people would be the best to help you fix those things. So until you have some ‘real’ projects lined up, I would not worry so much about it.

37

[quote] Having a work permit as a student effectively allows you to freelance for up to 16 hours a week.

Is this true? You can freelance with a student visa or working holiday, but not a work permit and ARC?
If so, then why not just go for a Mandarin course while freelancing, build up a network and see what happens down the track? It seems like you can study Chinese for at least a year straight, as scholarships are awarded for up to a year. It’s all on here somewhere too. Courses start quarterly and prices vary considerably at the approved institutions.
[/quote]

As far as I understand the ‘freelancing’ as a student is restricted to work related to the study, mostly even on campus, if the schools deems it necessary after you request it, after already having studied one year language courses, or a semester of a full studies. So it is kinda true, but very limited in it’s execution :wink:

You’re absolutely right in the end. If I end up doing what I really want to do in Taiwan then the legality won’t be the problem because I would be working with fairly big established entities who will have no problem arranging a working permit for me. The reason I want to find out is because there will be a transition period into that level of work, which will be frankly said simply making it work financially. Good networking takes time, even though I’m convinced about my skillset. In the meantime I need a source of income, which would have come of “regular” self employment. This seems undoable, and at the same time legal English teaching is out too because I’m Dutch. So in the bigger scheme of things I don’t worry that much, like you stated well. It’s the practical startup that is restricted, and where I’d like to find the most independent solution possible to.

38

If you study Chinese, you have to wait for one year to get a work permit. If you study at a university, you can get a work permit immediately after you begin your course. You don’t have to wait for one semester. Now some universities will not issue work permits to new students or restrict them to on-campus jobs as a matter of policy, but it is possible to get one right away.

Just making things clear. I don’t think the OP wants to enroll in a Taiwanese university and even if he did, he would probably have to wait until next year plus deal with a lot of annoying paperwork and formalities.

As some other have been hinting, it is not easy to be 100% ‘legal’ in Taiwan. If you insist on this, you may not be ready for the realities of life in Taiwan, especially in your proposed field. Come spend some time here and see what you think.

39

In my experience, it was the labor authorities who told me I had to wait a semester. Wouldn’t be surprised if they were wrong, but that’s what I ended up doing anyway. My job had almost nothing to do with what I studied, and I worked basically full time because there was a lot of out-of-office preparation to do for it. I only got paid for the 16 hours though. > <

40

Hok, the rule before December 10 2013 was that college and grad students had to wait for one semester before becoming eligible for the work permit. Since December 10 2013, college and grad students can apply for a work permit immediately after registration subject to approval by the university.

I don’t think the labor authorities were wrong when they told you that you had to wait for a semester. They would be wrong today. These regulations change frequently these days as Taiwan adjusts to having 30,000 international students in its universities.

As for the kind of work, it is supposed to be ‘related’ to your studies. As Hok found, the definition of ‘related’ is broad and, more importantly, there is no real mechanism in place to prevent students from freelancing, doing two part time jobs etc. So in effect, a student work permit allows you to freelance for up to 16 hours a week.