That does not seem like a very dignified way to live one’s life.
Guy
All jokes aside, if we want to talk about societal values in terms of the actual actions they take and make. Most places are probably a “province of China” by now. Already. Many kore countries fully more in bed with Chinathan Australia. To clarify, I assume we all knownthat “China” = “PRC” (just to avoid needing to explain to some asshole Muppet down the line).
This is somehow always understood in terms of conversation and yet also somehow tolerated in terms of actual action. What a weird world, literally retarded in this sense. The most literal meaning of the word, retarded. Historically, leading civilizations fail[ed] and collapse due to exactly this issue of retardation. I bet China is well aware (i mean, they talk about knowing how dumb we are and how patient they are all the time lol). Also, due to their lack of needing to care about their people or land, they can wait out this temporary hiccup - that is freedom and ethics - and be ready to take over when things start to go pear shaped. They already have spent their entire energy, otlutsid eof oppression, on binding infrastructure to be able to oppress. And brag about it daily. I mean…this isn’t exactly prophecy level knowledge, I think the whole plantet knows this already. China surely spends enough money and effort to let everyone know, ignorance is no longer an excuse in my opinion. More or less.
What’s whacked is the part of the planet that disagrees still doesnt really care and even funds this thing they claim to fundamentally disagree with. Bonkers to me that it will almost certainly take war for people to change their lifestyle in this regard. Especially bonkers because it’s still so easy to course correct, even in 2025. I hope we do!
I am the easiest person to be shown I am wrong g with data and logic. And this issue still, many decades later, keeps getting worse. I truly just don’t understand the logic. Outside of greed, that is. People have a hard time admitting that fact though.
An Australian delusion (partly expressed by the original poster) is that Australia-in-bed-with-the-PRC would continue to do business as usual and enjoy prosperity during and after a war in the Taiwan Strait. Mark Harrison at the University of Tasmania, among other sober minded scholars, thinks that this view is utterly delusional.
Guy
Estonia and few others in that area. We spend more time in Estonia/Baltics/ Poland. In 30 years of change, I can homes better than Taiwan (better than Japan), low crime (Estonia), and clean. 30 years was not like this
I think you missed the mark on why other countries truly would support Taiwan. It’s not because Taiwan is like them in democratic values, that is what is politically correct to say. This view is not based off of how Chinese or not chinese Taiwan is.
The real reason is Taiwan is strategically important to everyone right now. From the chips to other industries Taiwan has plugged into the global supply chains such as aerospace, battery and more. Maybe Taiwan isn’t the industry leader in other areas besides chips, but the know how of Taiwanese companies to manufacture a lot of in demand products the global supply chain depends on.
The other is the important trade route Taiwan is around and no one wants China to expand to control that.
No Western power has diplomatic relations with Taiwan or recognizes it as a sovereign nation and they’re going to go to war with China over Taiwan?
Before 1972, Australia recognized Taiwan as the “Republic of China”, and had an embassy in Taipei, opened in 1966. In 1972, diplomatic relations were ended following the decision of the government of Gough Whitlam to recognize the People’s Republic of China.
You are leaving out the quiet re-establishment of relations (through various “trade offices”) that emerged for many western countries often starting in the 1990s after the foreign dictatorship on Taiwan was finally brought down (the Australian Office claims its beginnings under a different name in the 1980s).
It’s a strange juggling act, to be sure, one that can be understood—if one actually want to understand—through the language used by most western states, including Canada, which deals with the PRC by acknowledging its position regarding Taiwan. This is not the same thing as agreeing with it.
Guy
JOURNALIST: Yesterday, the Chinese readout of your meetings said that Albanese reaffirmed Australia’s commitment to the One China policy and its opposition to Taiwan independence. Do you agree with the framing and interpretation of the way the Chinese have portrayed this, and could you tell us precisely what you said about that?
PRIME MINISTER: I agreed that Australia has had a longstanding bipartisan position that has supported the One China policy. That is our position, and that’s been the position of governments for a long period of time in Australia and is still the bipartisan position in Australia.
You left out the key part by Albanese after that.
Perhaps you are looking at bad sources. I’d prefer to think that’s the case, rather than conclude that you are just posting in bad faith. Either way, we’d all benefit if you upped your game here instead of clipping out key remarks.
Guy
Key remarks by Prime Minister Albanese, who is not as dense as depicted above:
We support the status quo. By definition we don’t support any unilateral action on Taiwan. That’s been our [i.e. the Australian government’s] position for a long time. Nothing is different there.
Source: Taiwan specialist scholar Dr Mark Harrison’s twitter account with video footage, posted here:
Guy
My part was pointing out that acknowledge the One China policy and support the One China policy aren’t the same thing.
I started to post something very similar, but than got tired. Yes, any assisting of Taiwan fighting against China would not be based on altruistic reasons.
I do wonder about this? In Japan/Estonia, I see people in the Army/Navy wear their Uniform in public (going home from/to work) with pride and hear nice comments about serving. Here (Taiwan) they do not wear the the Uniform in public much (less pride)
The irony of modernity is that you create something that is worth protecting, democracy, liberties, convenience, etc. At the same time, the achievements created foster younger generations that are incapable and unwilling to protect what they won’t appreciate enough, without knowing what it’s like to lose it. You can see this in Europe as well. People are not prepared to go to war and defend their countries. Russia and China have enough people (from the rural areas) who are willing to fight after being enticed and indoctrinated. It’s only natural that a country like Taiwan needs to outsource the dirty work. So what are the options? Buy sophisticated weapons. Hope for the US to step in and create a deterrent, out of their own interest. If that does not happen? Accept the overtake by China and hope that the transition is as painless as possible.
I think most young people here in Taiwan would not fight, let alone to the end, if the West stays out of it. There will be some, but most will first try to get out before it gets hot, then stay low during the invasion, then slowly come out and see what opportunities arise.
I sometimes think this. I hope like Estonia or Japan people flight for the nation till no hope (like some in Ukarine). They is no NATO like support here though, in Baltics I see other army from UK, Germany ect there, this helps locals with the will to fight. Not sure will every Japanese army in Taiwan gain to fight (good or bad)
Exactly. The 10,000ntd handouts could be better spent on improving facilities and benefits for professional soldiers etc…
If the PRC takes Taiwan, this will lead to an existential threat to Japan. I acknowledge that it is possible that Japan’s sleepy leaders will sleep through a crisis. But if they have competent leadership, I have little doubt they will be fighting on our side if Beijing decides to launch an invasion. It will be in Japan’s interest to do so.
Guy
The army pay in Taiwan is super low, to me odd for a place that needs a good army.
EU going to 5% of GDP to the Army, Taiwan is far off, this one is odd. (or shows cash is more important than freedom)
The three percent of GDP defense spending by Taiwan indicates the general feeling of the populace to defending the island in the face of attack. That is, they have zero resolve to do so unless propped up almost entirely by the US government. Compare the situation with Israel, a country that has faced similar geopolitical headwinds and their defense expenditure as percent of GDP and general combat readiness. Then realize that the Taiwanese geopolitical situation is far worse and against a far more technologically and economically advanced foe.
There are people on this forum far more familiar than me with Taiwanese history, and so I ask them this: would the ROC exist in any way shape or form currently if not for the US government propping them up? What makes it so strange is that the KMT, the benefactor of endless US support, is so pro-China. I guess it goes to show that they never really cared for anything other than money and power, as the the DPP-leaning foreign commentators tend to accuse them of being. But am I missing some sort of subtlety here that better explains the about-face?
If Taiwan won’t fight for Taiwan, why the hell should we? (from above topic), why should Japan fight. Better make homeland life better in Japan if Taiwan do not fight?