Lien Chan: No Foreign Daughter-in-law for me

Politics Taiwan Politics
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[quote=“cableguy”] WHile it may be true that Bush or Kerry or any number of other politicians would not state publicly their true feelings about their children marrying someone of a different race, it would be hard to believe that they would not oppose such an arrangement in private.
[/quote]

Wrong. Take a look at Bush’s family. It’s one of the reasons he’s popular with Hispanic voters.

I think you overestimate the amount of prejudice in mainstream America in the 21st century. Mixed-race marriages aren’t worth blinking an eye over in California or New York, though perhaps in Iowa they’re still a novelty.

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[quote=“mod lang”][quote=“cableguy”] WHile it may be true that Bush or Kerry or any number of other politicians would not state publicly their true feelings about their children marrying someone of a different race, it would be hard to believe that they would not oppose such an arrangement in private.
[/quote]

Wrong. Take a look at Bush’s family. It’s one of the reasons he’s popular with Hispanic voters.

I think you overestimate the amount of prejudice in mainstream America in the 21st century. Mixed-race marriages aren’t worth blinking an eye over in California or New York, though perhaps in Iowa they’re still a novelty.[/quote]

Sorry mod lang but I don’t think you read my post very carefully. I said I would find it “hard to believe that they would not oppose such an arrangement in private.” How can I be wrong about my opinion in this case since neither you nor I really know if Bush’s family opposed his brother’s marriage to a Hispanic woman. However, while I am very aware that Bush exploited his Brother’s children, especially his nephew, in order to sway Hispanic voters during the election, I still think that in the Bush family there must have been some heated debates about his brother doing that. (Again, this is only my opinion).
As for me overestimating “the amount of prejudice in mainstream America in the 21st century.” I do believe you are quite out of touch with the life in modern America. (Since we are both Americans I guess we are qualified to debate this issue). Mixed-race marriages are becoming more common but as you stated in a previous post, even decent people like you own parents didn’t want you to marry an asian woman. I think that the way your parents were thinking is the more common thinking process in the states. Thus, even in NY and California, not to mention all the other states, mixed-race marriages are still considered to be outside the norm, although in NY and Cali I think they are more common.
I do agree that Asian/black or Asian/white or Hispanic/black or Hispanic/white couples are more common these days in the USA, and more accepted, but can you say the same for black/white couples? I don’t think so. Even Spike Lee tackled the issue in “Jungle Fever” which showed how the black and white people in the states don’t like such relaionships.
So times are indeed changing but they have a long way to go before they have really and completely changed.

43

My parents wouldn’t have any problem with my marrying an Asian woman. One of my cousins has a Japanese wife and his family didn’t oppose it. But after they married and moved back to the States, they ran into cultural barriers. So that is why my mother warned me to be careful about bringing home a Chinese bride, because she feared that some cultural distances would be too difficult to bridge. Her advice had nothing to do with race. If I brought home a nice ABC girl my parents would be delighted, I’m sure. They would probably have the same objections about the cultural gap if I brought home a blue-eyed blonde Russian girl I met in Kiev. But if the girl proved herself adaptable to American society, no worries.

That is correct. Lots of white Americans still have problems with black people (as evidenced even on this forum - take a look at the Black History Month thread). And let’s admit, vice versa - lots of black mothers don’t want their kids marrying white folks. But the rest of your quote is basically you saying that you agree with me - Asian/white couples, that’s no big deal in America at all. Perhaps because Asians are considered honorary ‘whites’ in American society (the model minority, y’know).

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That is correct. Lots of white Americans still have problems with black people (as evidenced even on this forum - take a look at the Black History Month thread). And let’s admit, vice versa - lots of black mothers don’t want their kids marrying white folks. But the rest of your quote is basically you saying that you agree with me - Asian/white couples, that’s no big deal in America at all. Perhaps because Asians are considered honorary ‘whites’ in American society (the model minority, y’know).[/quote]

Mod lang,
With all due respect, you are incorrect when you write “But the rest of your quote is basically you saying that you agree with me.” I simply said that in the states, Asians with blacks or whites, and Hispanic with blacks or whites are more common and more accepted but I never said nor do I believe that such relationships are “no big deal in America at all.” Those are your words. I think, as I previously stated, that for many people in the states such relationships are outside the norm.
The way you have worded your past few posts in this thread, you make it seem as if America is a place where race really doesn’t matter. Do you really believe many people share your point of view in America? Remember we are speaking about a place where one’s ethnic background is often put before their place of birth, i.e., I’m Italian/Afro/German/whatever American.
Thus, when people of various races get together, this becomes a point of attention for many people, but not, as you previously stated, something so common people won’t even blink an eye when faced with such a relationship.
I love America, as I am sure you do, but I think the issue of race in the states is a far more complex issue that you are making it appear in your posts. People who stray outside the norm aren’t, I believe, as easily accepted by mainstream Americans as your posts seem to imply.
Perhaps, you have been lucky not to have encountered as much racial animosity in your personal life as some others have had to endure. However, I think that America has a long way to go before the color of one’s skin or the shape of one’s eyes is not seen as being important, especially when an issue such as marriage is being discussed. In any event, I hope you take my discussion with you as a friendly one and not one of anger. I respect your point of view but I just don’t happen to agree with you.

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America is a BIG country, which is why all generalizations about it fall flat. Like I said, in California or the urban East Coast, interracial relationships are very common and not that big of a deal. But the situation is very different in South and even worse in the Midwest where anyone who isn’t white is still a novelty.

But my specific point was that there is much, much less prejudice against white/Asian relationships than white/black relationships. I grew up in the smalltown South and there were a handful of girls of Asian descent and nobody thought twice of them dating white guys - they were treated just like white people, for all intents and purposes. But if anyone dared crossed the white/black color line… Let’s just admit, when we’re talking about prejudice and bigotry in America, blacks are a special case. No other minority is treated half as shittily and has so much hatred directed at them. In comparison, Asian-Americans have it pretty much easy. That’s why interracial dating between Asians and whites has never been a serious issue for most Americans (well, at least since we got over WWII and internment camps…but that was 60 years ago, and we’re talking about post-modern suburban latte-drinking multi-culti America). I think one reason is that most Americans if they’re bigots at all are going to spend 90% of their hatred directed at blacks, with the other minorities barely given any energy to hate except as an afterthought.

Let’s face it, if you’re not black, Mexican, or Native American, you really got nothing to complain about as far as ethnic discrimination is concerned in today’s America. The prejudices you have to face as an Asian-American aren’t any greater than mine as a White Trash American or Tomas’ as a Mormon-American.

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And you may not know it, but my little, mostly rural state was (and continues to be) the recepient of many Vietnamese/Cambodian boat people in the '70s - the government relocated entire communities over to tracts of land in the countryside set aside for them. Those little villages are gone now, as they’ve slowly integrated into the American mainstream, but there are several small towns in my state that are almost half Asian because several families decided to move there en masse. Anyway, I never heard tell of much racial tensions because of those immigrants - in fact, the ‘model minority’ is quite respected by most white Americans as admirably hard-working (a stereotype, yes, but at least it’s a positive stereotype, unlike the stereotypes of blacks and Hispanics). I attended university in the northwestern corridor of my state, where there were many factories employing Vietnamese immigrants and their Americanized children. The good old boys and gals that were locals, they were as redneck as it comes - but seeing white guys pick up cute Asian girls in their pickup trucks, and white girls holding hands with Asian guys…none of this was uncommon. So at least on my anecdotal experience, white/Asian relationships are seriously no big deal in my neck of the woods.

But like I said - America is a BIG country, and your neck of the woods may very well be different.

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[quote=“mod lang”]America is a BIG country, which is why all generalizations about it fall flat. Like I said, in California or the urban East Coast, interracial relationships are very common and not that big of a deal. But the situation is very different in South and even worse in the Midwest where anyone who isn’t white is still a novelty.

But my specific point was that there is much, much less prejudice against white/Asian relationships than white/black relationships. I grew up in the smalltown South and there were a handful of girls of Asian descent and nobody thought twice of them dating white guys - they were treated just like white people, for all intents and purposes. But if anyone dared crossed the white/black color line… Let’s just admit, when we’re talking about prejudice and bigotry in America, blacks are a special case. No other minority is treated half as shittily and has so much hatred directed at them. In comparison, Asian-Americans have it pretty much easy. That’s why interracial dating between Asians and whites has never been a serious issue for most Americans (well, at least since we got over WWII and internment camps…but that was 60 years ago, and we’re talking about post-modern suburban latte-drinking multi-culti America). I think one reason is that most Americans if they’re bigots at all are going to spend 90% of their hatred directed at blacks, with the other minorities barely given any energy to hate except as an afterthought.

Let’s face it, if you’re not black, Mexican, or Native American, you really got nothing to complain about as far as ethnic discrimination is concerned in today’s America. The prejudices you have to face as an Asian-American aren’t any greater than mine as a White Trash American or Tomas’ as a Mormon-American.[/quote]

I really am getting more and more confused by your posts. Do you really believe what you write or do you just state the first thought that comes into you mind? Do you really believe that you, as a white American, face the same situation as an Asian American? C’mon, man. Get real. I am also a white American and I in no way believe that the life and situation I face in the states is the same as an Asian America or Asian immigrant.
When my white face shows up at various places, the person can’t tell whether I am a poor white trash redneck or an upper crust well-to-do American. However, when the Asian face shows up at the same place assumptions are going to be made, no matter how unfair, and that person is going to be labelled as non-American. That is the truth.
When you wrote your first posts in this thread, you didn’t mention anything about black/white relationships. YOu simply made it seem that interacial relationships were accepted by all and by everyone in the states. Now you seem to be saying that you meant that race relations in the USA are fine except where white and black are concerned. Man, you need to get back to the states. You have been away too long.
America has never been, not now and certainly not in the past, a place as rosy as you paint it, especially where race relations are concerned.
Recently, I read about where Asian-American comedien Margret Cho was told to go back to her own country, and she was called foul-vulgar names based on her appearance and name simply due to some comedy act she performed. Do you think as a white American you would have been called the same names and told to go back to your own country? I doubt it.
The truth is that you and I, as white Americans, have it far easier than any other ethnic group whose facial features reveal their heritage. If you don’t believe this, you have indeed been away from home too long.
Again, I respect your opinion, but to say that Asian-Americans or Asian people in general in America are treated the same or seen as the same as white Americans is really hard to accept.

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[quote=“cableguy”]
So times are indeed changing but they have a long way to go before they have really and completely changed.[/quote]

Some things will never completely change. But they are changing. Coming from New York I would say that in that area by far most people could care less about it. I have personally never heard any kind of remark, and i mean any, about my Taiwanese wife from any one there, much less my family. I can’t speak for other parts of the country.

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[quote=“daltongang”][quote=“cableguy”]
So times are indeed changing but they have a long way to go before they have really and completely changed.[/quote]

Some things will never completely change. But they are changing. Coming from New York I would say that in that area by far most people could care less about it. I have personally never heard any kind of remark, and I mean any, about my Taiwanese wife from any one there, much less my family. I can’t speak for other parts of the country.[/quote]

I completely agree. Times are indeed changing. The last time I was in the states, about half-a-year ago, I saw more and more people of various ethnic backgrounds working in jobs, such as anchoring the evening news,which I had never seen before in such large numbers. That is terrific.
However, I still believe that America has a long, long way to go before non-white faces are seen as being truly American. I do believe you, daltongang, when you say your family and friends accept your Taiwanese wife as simply being your wife. However, I wonder about the larger society. The truth is that your wife probably looks and perhaps speaks diffently than those Americans you both come in contact with. Do those Americans accept your wife as just another person? Is she seen as the same kind of person as another man’s wife whose face is different and whose speech is more native like? Is your wife spoken about as your wife or is she always referred to as “daltongang’s” Taiwanese wife? If she is, and I suspect that may be the case, then she is not really seen as just another “American” woman. She will always be the outsider.
This is my argument. America may be changing but it still has a long way to go before it is truly a different place.

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where are you from cg? honestly, I would say this is not the case in the ny area. there are so many people from all over there. most, not all but most, people really don’t care. it may be true in some circles, but not any i’m familiar with. and i’m from suburban staten island ny, which is not exactly known locally as a bastion of urbane sophistication.

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Daltongang,
I am sorry if I have given you the impression that I don’t think my fellow Americans are nice and accepting people, especially where different races are concerned. I truly think that most Americans are very good people who are willing to accept many different races.
However, my original point was that America, on a hole, is certainly not a society in which a person’s racial background is not a factor in life. I really wish this weren’t true but I believe it is.
Thus, when the couple is mixed, say Asian and white/black, then I personally think it is almost impossible for that fact to be overlooked.It is certainly, I don’t think, the same situation as when the couple is of the same race, say Asian/Asian, black/black, white/white, etc.
So, even though a person may not say anything to the mixed-couple’s face, when the person is meeting with his/her friends, they will most likely mention that he/she met so and so, the white guy who has an Asian wife. WHile this is not a major thing, it does show that the couple is not seen in the same way as a same race couple.
Perhaps I am wrong about all this. Maybe America has truly become the melting pot that utopian seekers always hoped and believed it was. However, one look at the evening news in the states shoud be enough to dissuade most people of that rather innocent notion.

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[quote=“cableguy”]I am sorry if I have given you the impression that I don’t think my fellow Americans are nice and accepting people, especially where different races are concerned. I truly think that most Americans are very good people who are willing to accept many different races.
However, my original point was that America, on a hole, is certainly not a society in which a person’s racial background is not a factor in life. I really wish this weren’t true but I believe it is.[/quote]

Well of course it’s a factor in life. that’s a broad point and i certainly wouldn’t deny it. i admit i am talking about a much narrower point, and i also admit it is probaly not true for the country as a whole. however it’s true for the only country i know, and for a part of it that tends to be on the forefront of trends.

[quote]
Thus, when the couple is mixed, say Asian and white/black, then I personally think it is almost impossible for that fact to be overlooked.It is certainly, I don’t think, the same situation as when the couple is of the same race, say Asian/Asian, black/black, white/white, etc.
So, even though a person may not say anything to the mixed-couple’s face, when the person is meeting with his/her friends, they will most likely mention that he/she met so and so, the white guy who has an Asian wife. WHile this is not a major thing, it does show that the couple is not seen in the same way as a same race couple.[/quote]

oh, it would certainly be noticed, and commented upon. regrettably for purposes of race relations, we do not live in a color blind world. But seriously, I doubt anyone I know would identify me in that way. personally, I would never think of identifying someone in that way
asian/black/hispanic/non-white wife? big deal. in ny such a couple is not seen differently than anyone else in any substantial way.

By the way, you still haven’t answered my question. It seems we may be arguing apples and oranges here!

[quote]
Perhaps I am wrong about all this. Maybe America has truly become the melting pot that utopian seekers always hoped and believed it was. However, one look at the evening news in the states shoud be enough to dissuade most people of that rather innocent notion.[/quote]

that is a utopian notion but if it ever happens anywhere i believe it will be in the us.

53

Life is never going to be perfect for anybody and there will always be small but extremely vocal minority of bigoted rednecks everywhere. My point was that in my experience in my area of the country, I never saw or heard much anti-Asian prejudice - it’s a non-issue. Not everyone in the rural South and Midwest is a Klan-hooded bigot, no more than folks in New York or California are. The one substantial racial problem I saw in my part of America was with black people (which is common everywhere in the country.) Yes, sometimes you’ll hear disparaging remarks about Asian-Americans, but is it to any degree much greater than the remarks you’ll sometimes hear about Catholics, Jews, Mormons, Italians, Appalachian-Americans (the new PC euphism for “hillbilly”), and plenty of other ‘white’ minorities? I mean, c’mon, in an America where incest and ‘you may be a redneck’ jokes are constantly being directed against a certain class of white, working class Americans, I’m not going out of my way to pity Asian-Americans for getting the occasional ‘go back to China’. They didn’t become one of the most prosperous and successful minorities (with a higher per capita income than most white people) by feeling sorry for themselves and playing identity politics.

Lots of G.I.s were stationed over in the Far East in the 20th century. Want to look at the percentage that brought home Filipina, Japanese, Vietnamese, Chinese, Korean brides? It was pretty damn high. All over America, in every podunk town from even Yazoo City, Mississippi, you’ll see those ex-G.I.s’ families full of kids that are half Filipino. (Heck, every gal in the Philippines’ ultimate Cinderella dream is to marry an American - I’ve seen the statistic than half of the guys stationed over there got hitched). So Asian/white marriages have been around and very common in America (relative to the tiny percentage of Asians in the U.S.) for a long time. I’ve never heard of any social stigma attached to it, beyond the “he must be a loser who couldn’t find a white American woman” rant you sometimes hear from bitter American feminists whenever an American man marries a foreign bride.

54

Yes, white/Asian marriages are pretty much a non-issue. I lived on Pittsburgh’s North Side, in a somewhat depressed neighborhood before returning to Taiwan. All the neighbors used to sit out on the front steps in the evening during the summertime and talk about everything. We had a mostly white population on the street I lived with streets nearby that were mostly black. Everyone got along fairly well. One night, my neighbors, both black and white, were agreeing that inter-racial marriage was a bad thing.

I looked at them and asked, “what about my inter-racial marriage with my (Taiwanese) wife and I?” Every one of my neighbors, black and white, looked at me and laughed and replied, “That’s nothing, that’s not what we’re talking about.”

Talk about a non-issue.