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~TGM 07/26/2014 00:05
[/color][quote="BeachBoy"]On the MRT on my visit, I met a young lady in her early 20s. Her parents worked in finance. Her attitude was reunification was a financial win for the island. Talk about historical amnesia....[/quote]
Generally speaking, Waishen youths are politically indoctrinated at an much younger age than native Taiwanese. They are also more open(outspoken) about their views.
There are family tales of the Chinese civil wars in their social circle, tales about uncles and aunts, and family friends holding various historical positions of the roc. I grew up with friends mostly from Waishen background, and this my impression. As early as in my junior high, some of my friends indulged in showing my pictures of the 1937 nanking massacre from the school library (those were fake photos from 通州事件)
As for me, I did not become vocal about my political views until late 20s, just a couple of years ago.
Generally speaking, Waishen youths are politically indoctrinated at an much younger age than native Taiwanese. They are also more open about their views.
There are family tales of the Chinese civil wars in their social circle, tales about uncles and aunts, and family friends holding various historical positions of the roc. I grew up with friends mostly from Waishen background, and this my impression. As early as in my junior high, some of my friends indulged in showing my pictures of the 1937 Nanjing massacre from the school library (those were fake photos from 通州事件)
As for me, I did not become vocal about my political views until late 20s, just a couple of years ago.[/quote]
With native Taiwanese I hope you refer to Aboriginal people, as otherwise we are just talking about the green version of indoctrination.
[quote=“hsinhai78”]
With native Taiwanese I hope you refer to Aboriginal people, as otherwise we are just talking about the green version of indoctrination.[/quote]
“Native” is a general term that refers to a person or thing that has originated from a particular place. The term “native” does not denote a specific Aboriginal ethnicity. Technically 2nd and 3rd generations of Late Immigrants who came along with the KMT army are also native to Taiwan, whether you like it or not.
The best terms to use in Taiwan are:
Aboriginals (people who were here before the Dutch occupation)
Early Immigrants (Holo/Hakka/and other ethnicities already in Taiwan before 1945)
Late Immigrants (Chinese and other ethnicities who came to Taiwan with the KMT)
New Immigrants (any new arrivals)
One: Waisheng. There is most certainly a g on the end of that word.
Two: You are making the fallacious assumption that all descendants of waishengren (because, at this point, it’s mostly third-generation) support the KMT, and all “native” Taiwanese support the DPP. What you’ll find is KMT supporters are more outspoken, because it’s more politically correct to support the KMT than the “crazy” DPP. But I would say it has very little to do with the place your grandparents were born.
Aboriginals (people who were here before the Dutch occupation)
Early Immigrants (Holo/Hakka/and other ethnicities already in Taiwan before 1945)
Late Immigrants (Chinese and other ethnicities who came to Taiwan with the KMT)
New Immigrants (any new arrivals)[/quote]
At least that would be from an Aboriginal POV !
Hoklo claims to Taiwan are as valid or invalid as ROC claims to this island. The aboriginal people invited neither of them.
Doesn’t matter who was or was not invited; they’re still immigrants.
Hansioux, I like the distinctions except for two things:
“Aboriginal” is less accepted than “indigenous” these days. I’m not sure why, but outside of Australia the term has somehow taken on a derogatory meaning. That’s why the Council of Abirigonal Affairs (or whatever it was called) has been renamed to the Council of Indigenous Peoples.
In a display of the subtle racism that runs through this society, “New Immigrants” often also refers to the children of immigrants, and “new immigrant families” refers to a family where a wife or husband originates not from Taiwan. In the US, an immigrant family would be an entire family that immigrated together. “新住民” also does not discriminate between permanent residents of Taiwan who have come here for marriage or work, and those who have given up their nationality to legally become Taiwanese citizens. And the term brings to mind Vietnamese women more than, say, German men. I’d suggest choosing an entirely different term.
Contrary to what you may think, it is no longer taboo to talk about Waishen. I don’t mind some of you feel strongly about being conventional and maintain an impeccable political correctness as if it were still 2000.
In the context of Taiwan, we should not kid ourselves into thinking that waishen immigration is not a euphemism to the refugee. The respective world views or outlooks are very different, if not opposite, between Waishen and native Taiwanese, due to war history.
The third point I’d like to raise here is that, I fully understand some of you have the need to always examine “Hoklo” on the one hand in order to balance “Waishen” on the other hand, as if this will result in a fair and unbiased conversation. However the older I become, the less sense this “balancing” makes sense to me.
One: Waisheng. There is most certainly a g on the end of that word.
Two: You are making the fallacious assumption that all descendants of waishengren (because, at this point, it’s mostly third-generation) support the KMT, and all “native” Taiwanese support the DPP. What you’ll find is KMT supporters are more outspoken, because it’s more politically correct to support the KMT than the “crazy” DPP. But I would say it has very little to do with the place your grandparents were born.[/quote]
Sorry but I was not referring to voting behaviour, party politics, and statistics. There are many research on those topics.
I was merely responding to that other post I quoted anecdotally , considering the nature of that particular post. In my response I divulged a little bit of my personal background so you can see where I’m coming from.
All Taiwanese are subject to political indoctrination in public education. For the waishen group, public indoctrination and private indoctrination reinforces each other.
Whereas in the case of the native Taiwanese, there is no such private indoctrination, so for us, the process of detoxing wouldn’t happen until a later stage in life, usually through curiosity and some soul searching, etc.
*I apologize for using a bit of dichotomy so I wouldn’t need to scatter the phrase “more or less” everywhere.
[quote=“sofun”]Contrary to what you may think, it is no longer taboo to talk about Waishen. I don’t mind some of you feel strongly about being conventional and maintain an impeccable political correctness as if it were still 2000.
In the context of Taiwan, we should not kid ourselves into thinking that waishen immigration is not a euphemism to the refugee. The respective world views or outlooks are very different, if not opposite, between Waishen and native Taiwanese, due to war history.
The third point I’d like to raise here is that, I fully understand some of you have the need to always examine “Hoklo” on the one hand in order to balance “Waishen” on the other hand, as if this will result in a fair and unbiased conversation. However the older I become, the less sense this “balancing” makes to me.[/quote]
Taking such a position only invites people such as Hsinhai to manipulate your words to one with ethnic bias when none is present. It is unnecessary and distracts from the real issues at hand. Perhaps there is still is a us and them situation going on somewhere in the fabric of Taiwan’s society, but the way to address it is to eliminate it through building towards a common goal.
Taking such a position only invites people such as Xinhai to manipulate your words to one with ethnic bias when none is present. It is unnecessary and distracts from the real issues at hand. Perhaps there is still is a us and them situation going on somewhere in the fabric of Taiwan’s society, but the way to address it is to eliminate it through building towards a common goal.[/quote]
Can you give an example of what the common goal is?
Please please please add the g! It’s 外省 not 外沈.[/quote]
I’d have to decline your request. The natural pronunciation (if you’d listen carefully) is actually waishen without the g in Taiwanese Mandarin, across all all regions in Taiwan, in spite of the ㄅㄆㄇ spelling, which is ㄕㄥ, corresponding to the g that you insist.
The only exception is old school 外省口音 from Taipei, which sounds funny to most Taiwanese anyway.
ㄅㄆㄇ (merely a form of kana) spelling and actual pronunciation might differ, as in all languages. Also the Hanzi characters can have many different pronunciations depending on the speaker. (see for example Watson’s is 屈臣.) Therefore “waishen” is a correct romanization in Taiwan. Ok I’m digressing now.
Taking such a position only invites people such as Xinhai to manipulate your words to one with ethnic bias when none is present. It is unnecessary and distracts from the real issues at hand. Perhaps there is still is a us and them situation going on somewhere in the fabric of Taiwan’s society, but the way to address it is to eliminate it through building towards a common goal.[/quote]
Can you give an example of what the common goal is?[/quote]
liberty, free speech, freedom of religion, democracy, typically things that would make a general Taiwanese feel Taiwanese, regardless of ethnicity.
Sorry, you’re categorically wrong here. The sound produced by any speaker of Mandarin in Taiwan – whether their first language is Taiwanese, Hakka, an aboriginal language, or Mandarin – ends with a final of /ŋ/. Every single romanization system ever invented writes it this way, as well. “Waishen” is not correct by any standard.
And your example of 屈臣氏 makes no sense. It’s pronounced /wat-ʃan-ʃi/ in Cantonese, but if you read it as anything but /tɕʰyʈʂʰənʂz̩/ (quchenshi) in Mandarin, you’re reading it wrong.
If you insist on spelling “waisheng” incorrectly, you might as well just use the Chinese characters instead.
Please please please add the g! It’s 外省 not 外沈.[/quote]
I’d have to decline your request. The natural pronunciation (if you’d listen carefully) is actually waishen without the g in Taiwanese Mandarin, across all all regions in Taiwan, in spite of the ㄅㄆㄇ spelling, which is ㄕㄥ, corresponding to the g that you insist.
The only exception is old school 外省口音 from Taipei, which sounds funny to most Taiwanese anyway.
ㄅㄆㄇ (merely a form of kana) spelling and actual pronunciation might differ, as in all languages. Also the Hanzi characters can have many different pronunciations depending on the speaker. (see for example Watson’s is 屈臣.) Therefore “waishen” is a correct romanization in Taiwan. Ok I’m digressing now.[/quote]
It’s not the correct romanization as romanization is not the same as phonetic transcription. Just like we don’t spell “I want to” “I wanna” except in comic books or when we are being sloppy even though that is usually how it is pronounced. Romanizations, like spellings, follow the standard. In Taiwanese education the standard is sheng, and not shen.
It’s also waishengren and not waisheng. I’ve never not had a Taiwanese correct me when I merely said waisheng. It’s like saying “Oh I don’t like foreign provinces in my country.”
[quote=“Mucha Man”]It’s not the correct romanization as romanization is not the same as phonetic transcription. Just like we don’t spell “I want to” “I wanna” except in comic books or when we are being sloppy even though that is usually how it is pronounced. Romanizations, like spellings, follow the standard. In Taiwanese education the standard is sheng, and not shen.
It’s also waishengren and not waisheng. I’ve never not had a Taiwanese correct me when I merely said waisheng. It’s like saying “Oh I don’t like foreign provinces in my country.”[/quote]
Well this debate will likely become as boring as a debate about color vs colour, or romanize vs romanise. I’m not saying Waisheng is not valid. I’m just saying I prefer to type “waishen” since it is the most natural for me. Mind you that Mandarin is my first language and I speak perfect Taiwanese Mandarin. I don’t like being challenged on something as trivial as a g. I have no intention to append that stupid g either.