Linsanity about double nationality

Legal Dual Nationality
1

seems ROC nationality cannot be avoided… or so I gather from this. If it is in your blood, then you are always carrying it.

[quote]Amid an ongoing public debate about whether NBA star Jeremy Lin (林書豪) is Taiwanese, Deputy Minister of the Interior Chien Tai-lang (簡太郎) seems to have an official answer, saying that, legally, Lin is a Republic of China (ROC) national.
…

“Of course Lin is an ROC national,” Chien said at a meeting of the legislature’s Internal Administration Committee. “Since Lin was born to parents who are ROC nationals, he is automatically granted ROC nationality. He is therefore an ROC national, unless he formally renounces his ROC nationality, but he hasn’t done so as far as I know.”

Chien was referring to Article 2 of the Nationality Act (國籍法), which stipulates that anyone who has at least one parent who is an ROC national is automatically granted ROC nationality.Chien made the remarks during discussions of whether ROC citizens born overseas should be allowed to run for president.

Taiwan Solidarity Union Legislator Huang Wen-ling (黃文玲) had asked Chien if someone born and raised in another country, citing Lin as an example, should be allowed to run for president if the person obtains ROC citizenship.

[/quote]
taipeitimes.com/News/front/a … 2003534707

Hence, technically speaking, ALL kids born of Taiwanese citizens abroad are dual citizens, hence cannot hold public office abroad unless officially renounces to it. It is a right that cuts both ways.

Question: what if for example, if any of the people who have attained ROC nationality goes abroad, marries, has a kid. Is the kid considered Taiwanese? Is he allowed to choose nationality and then citizenship of ROC? Up to what age? Legally speaking, of course. :wink:

ps.
does anyone else read in here like they are planning to give him an ROC passport as soon as he steps one foot into this Island, and somewhere maybe, if he’s still famous, push an electoral position on him?

2

[quote=“Icon”]
Hence, technically speaking, ALL kids born of Taiwanese citizens abroad are dual citizens, hence cannot hold public office abroad unless officially renounces to it. It is a right that cuts both ways. [/quote]

Many countries, such as the United States, do not have a prohibition against dual citizens holding public office. U.S. Rep. Michele Bachmann recently naturalized as a Swiss citizen. Arnold Schwarzenegger has retained his Austrian citizenship while governor.

Unlike British nationality, there is no limit on the number of generations that ROC nationality can be transmitted. All Chinese people in the world are technically ROC nationals. Even the Dalai Lama is legal a ROC national and was forced to enter Taiwan using an entry permit. It’s just been harder to exercise this right since 2002. Until 2002, any person of Chinese descent living outside of China could get an Overseas Chinese Certificate and use that the apply for a ROC passport.

Under ROC law there is no prohibition against dual nationality. It is held for life unless the kid affirmatively renounces it. The kid would not have to choose. The other nationality acquired at birth may force the kid to choose though. For example, Barack Obama was technically a Kenyan citizen until he turned 23 in 1984 - since Kenya forbids dual citizenship for adults, he would have had to renounce his US citizenship to remain a Kenyan citizen. Japan is another example - children born as ROC-Japan dual nationals need to renounce the ROC nationality or lose the Japanese nationality by age 22.

Since he was born abroad, he has to apply for his passport abroad using his US birth certificate. He may not enter Taiwan on a US passport and attempt to apply it from within.

3

Yes but I believe you would have to give up your non-Taiwan citizenship to hold certain positions in Taiwan. I vaguely recall the Nobel Prize winner who returned to Taiwan to run the Academica Sinica having to abandon his long held US citizenship to take this position. Not sure but I assume this would extend to public office.

4

My son was born here and as I’m a US citizen he was “automatically” granted US citizenship, too. But if I hadn’t applied for it, he’d never have gotten it. I had to formally request his US citizenship. If I hadn’t, no one in the States would have gone on record as saying that he was of course a US citizen because he was born to a US citizen. So maybe it’s more correct to say that of course Lin has rights to ROC citizenship, should he choose to apply. That’s not the same thing as already being a citizen.

5

I don’t think it was so easy to become an ROC national as otherwise half the Chinese descendants in South East Asia would have applied. In fact even the descendants of the KMT army in Myanmar had found it difficult to get an ROC ID, as have numerous Tibetan refugees.

Nope, don’t believe it.

All legislators are forbidden to hold foreign nationality or green cards, so are control yuan and various other govt positions and offfice holders. Hence the infamous Diane Chen case a while back.

6

[quote=“headhonchoII”]I don’t think it was so easy to become an ROC national as otherwise half the Chinese descendants in South East Asia would have applied. In fact even the descendants of the KMT army in Myanmar had found it difficult to get an ROC ID, as have numerous Tibetan refugees.

Nope, don’t believe it.

All legislators are forbidden to hold foreign nationality or green cards, so are control yuan and various other govt positions and offfice holders. Hence the infamous Diane Chen case a while back.[/quote]

The issue is explained here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_w … gistration
Nationality 國籍 and household registration 戶籍 are two separate concepts that come with a separate set of privileges under ROC law. Anyone with the latter must hold the former; holding the former does not necessarily require the latter.

Until 10 years ago, it was really easy to obtain a ROC passports. As you can see from some of the posts on this board, numerous overseas Chinese residing in the Philippines continue to hold ROC passports despite having no connection to Taiwan. But to hold a ROC ID card and exercise citizenship rights in Taiwan requires having household registration in Taiwan - for those with no connection to Taiwan this is very difficult to obtain. Countries granting visa-free privileges for ROC passport holders almost universally require an ID number to be printed in the passport, indicating that the holder is entitled to the full set of citizenship rights in Taiwan and can be repatriated there upon demand. An ROC passport without an ID number is not much more useful than any old certificate of identity.

7

Exactly. It should be a choice, not an inexorable imposition. A right, not an obligation.

And yes, there is a difference between nationality and citizenship, and right thereof derived.

What I mean to say, if for instance me, I get Taiwanese full citizenship. I move abroad, I marry and have kids, will the kids have the right to request ROC’s nationality, and if so, up to when?

I really resent the deputy minister’s implication that if you are Chinese, you fall under ROC’s jurisdiction, which Gnajij also mentions. I really do not like that it sounds imposed.

8

[quote=“Icon”]What I mean to say, if for instance me, I get Taiwanese full citizenship. I move abroad, I marry and have kids, will the kids have the right to request ROC’s nationality, and if so, up to when?

I really resent the deputy minister’s implication that if you are Chinese, you fall under ROC’s jurisdiction, which Gnajij also mentions. I really do not like that it sounds imposed.[/quote]

I don’t see how ROC nationality law is in any way unusual here. If your parent is a national, then you should be one too. The same jus sanguinis right is applied by the UK, US, Germany, France, Japan, Australia, etc. and almost every (i.e. non-Communist) country in the world that does not expressly forbid dual nationality for minors. The only unusual generosity granted under current ROC nationality law is that there is no residency requirement for nationality to be transmitted by descent - the US, for example, requires that the parent have resided in the US for at least 5 years for US citizenship to be passed to the overseas-born offspring.

The government said that Jeremy Lin is a ROC national because his parents are ROC nationals, not because he is Chinese. This sounds reasonable and in line with prevailing global conventions. Nationality in this case can be freely renounced without consequence.

9

Very informative gnaij, it seems like there have been a few threads with people expressing confusion on ROC passports so this pretty definitively clears it up.

I find it kind of interesting that in order to have this concept of China citizenship that goes back to the original KMT claim of representing all of China, they therefore had to come up with this concept of Taiwan huji, which for all intensive purposes contains the bundle of what most people think of as actual citizenship rights. So effectively, a Taiwan ID card is what most of us would think of as a passport or identification card for a full citizen.

10

[quote=“gnaij”][quote=“Icon”]What I mean to say, if for instance me, I get Taiwanese full citizenship. I move abroad, I marry and have kids, will the kids have the right to request ROC’s nationality, and if so, up to when?

I really resent the deputy minister’s implication that if you are Chinese, you fall under ROC’s jurisdiction, which Gnajij also mentions. I really do not like that it sounds imposed.[/quote]

I don’t see how ROC nationality law is in any way unusual here. If your parent is a national, then you should be one too. The same jus sanguinis right is applied by the UK, US, Germany, France, Japan, Australia, etc. and almost every (i.e. non-Communist) country in the world that does not expressly forbid dual nationality for minors. The only unusual generosity granted under current ROC nationality law is that there is no residency requirement for nationality to be transmitted by descent - the US, for example, requires that the parent have resided in the US for at least 5 years for US citizenship to be passed to the overseas-born offspring.

The government said that Jeremy Lin is a ROC national because his parents are ROC nationals, not because he is Chinese. This sounds reasonable and in line with prevailing global conventions. Nationality in this case can be freely renounced without consequence.[/quote]

As I said, as long as it is a right, not an obligation, I am all for it. As long as there is a choice. You see, where I come from, we can’t renounce, at all. It is problematic. It is supposed to be a good thing, but it can backfire easily. i do not want that as an ROC citizen by choice.

11

A letter in the TAIPEI TIMES today challenges the interpretation of the Ministry of the Interior regarding this matter.

Is Jeremy Lin Taiwanese?
taipeitimes.com/News/editori … 2003535108

12

As China maintains that our little island is Chinese, if a Taiwanese passport holder goes to China, will he/she be considered a citizen? Is it normal for a citizen to have to get a visa to his/her own country? So, if Lin is Taiwanese, then he must also be Chinese.

???

It’s all just a knock-off brand of cheap, easy, crazy.

13

[quote=“Hartzell”]A letter in the TAIPEI TIMES today challenges the interpretation of the Ministry of the Interior regarding this matter.

Is Jeremy Lin Taiwanese?
taipeitimes.com/News/editori … 2003535108[/quote]
It looks like gnaji’s post addresses this. Obtaining services from those other Taiwan bureaus and divisions requires a Taiwan ID, which is for all intents and purposes the equivalent of Taiwanese citizenship in terms of the bundle of rights that comes with a Taiwan ID.

ROC nationality is a politicized fiction created by the KMT long ago to support the claim that the ROC represented all of China. In practical terms, ROC nationality is empty of any rights, so for all intents and purposes, “ROC nationality” doesn’t grant you any privileges.

To comform with international norms, they should change the terms as follows:
ROC guoji (nationality)–> “Belongee of meaningless significance to legacy KMT concept of greater China”
ROC huji (residency) --> “Taiwan citizen”

14

Where’s this? I have the same problem for my baby son. I am American and Taiwanese and my son was born in China. I applied for US citizenship when he was born and he’s got a US passport.

Now he’s in kind of Twilight Zone… China considers him Chinese since his mother is Chinese. This means to exit China he needs an exit permit! He doesn’t have a Chinese visa because the Chinese embassy won’t issue him a visa, saying he’s Chinese! (At least this is at the one in Hong Kong, haven’t tried any of the US ones yet).

I went to renounce his Chinese citizenship but the authorities said no one renounces (meaning people just keep both, even though it’s against the law). I insisted, and he kind of shrugged and said he’d try but no guarantees China will let him renounce. WTF??

15

As I explained somewher else, this was implemented originally as a benefit, so people who wanted to regain their nationality after they renounced in order to get another one, could still backtrack. Problem is the way the law sees it, you can’t “eliminate” it completely from your record. As you have experinecd yourself, it can get complicated, a right that backfires as an obligation.

16

This is so twilight zone.

We are living in taiwan with our kids all of us on my spouse’s arc, entered usung american passports, no nhi. We just had a child in tw and sent in documents to our accountants to process the newest additions arc. They come back and tell us they cant do it. The national immigration agency says as one parent is a citizen of taiwan, this child is automatically a citizen of taiwan. As we do not have hukou because we’re americans, we must register this child on a “relative’s” hukou. Wtf? All of us entered on an american passport! Then we are supposed to get the child a tw passport, fly out, fly back using childs american passport, remove child from hukou, and then apply for arc. Can u even put an english name on a hukou? How does a “relative” explain why this child is on their hukou and not the parents?

So if one parent was born in tw, but no hukou, doesnt enter on a tw passport, still considered a “citizen”? Its confusing. There must be a clear definition of nationality vs citizen that i missed. Can someone direct me?

17

[quote=“Teddoman”]Very informative gnaij, it seems like there have been a few threads with people expressing confusion on ROC passports so this pretty definitively clears it up.

I find it kind of interesting that in order to have this concept of China citizenship that goes back to the original KMT claim of representing all of China, they therefore had to come up with this concept of Taiwan huji, which for all intensive purposes contains the bundle of what most people think of as actual citizenship rights. So effectively, a Taiwan ID card is what most of us would think of as a passport or identification card for a full citizen.[/quote]

Correct , hence the importance of huji and Taiwan ‘shen fen zheng’ here.
The huji system goes backs thousands of years though and was the means of census and taxation and how the emperor monitored and controlled the Chinese.

It predates modern ideas of passports and citizenship. The Japanese also operated huji in Taiwan , the KMT simply took over their existing records.

Essentially you should forget about ideas of nationality and citizenship and realize that you belong somewhere first by Hukou, if you don’t belong to a Hukou first how can you exist :wink:.

18

lin’s parents would have to have active household registrations in order for him to apply, and they have to return to taiwan every 2 yrs in order to keep it active. if theyve been away for 3yrs or more and not kept it active, then he shouldnt be able to apply. alot of overseas taiwanese dont go back to tw on a regular basis, especially mainlanders. lot’s of them havent been back for 10yrs. also lin would have to live in tw for 1yr without leaving to become a full citizen. it’s easy to get the overseas Chinese status, but getting the citizenship requires comitment. if lin has some kind of criminal record, then that may prevent him from becoming a citizen. all this stuff are reasons why many overseas Chinese have not applied for citizenship. this system is very different from western countries like britain, canada, germany, etc. i think the japanese had their own motive for bringing back the overseas japanese. and since the brazilians japanese went back, the japanese govt had changed their minds, and changed the laws.

19

[quote=“914”]This is so twilight zone.

We are living in taiwan with our kids all of us on my spouse’s arc, entered usung American passports, no nhi. We just had a child in tw and sent in documents to our accountants to process the newest additions arc. They come back and tell us they cant do it. The national immigration agency says as one parent is a citizen of Taiwan, this child is automatically a citizen of Taiwan. As we do not have hukou because we’re Americans, we must register this child on a “relative’s” hukou. Wtf? All of us entered on an American passport! Then we are supposed to get the child a tw passport, fly out, fly back using childs American passport, remove child from hukou, and then apply for arc. Can u even put an english name on a hukou? How does a “relative” explain why this child is on their hukou and not the parents?

So if one parent was born in tw, but no hukou, doesnt enter on a tw passport, still considered a “citizen”? Its confusing. There must be a clear definition of nationality vs citizen that I missed. Can someone direct me?[/quote]

I think your spouse should have a hukou if she was born in Taiwan just like your child will have one. You may need to go to the local household registry office to see if you can track down where her las huji was set at. I may be wrong though, it just seems logical.

20

Or draft him into the army!

This is never enforced.