Long-timers who can't speak Chinese

Taiwan Living in Taiwan
41

I agree on the remark about the arrogance within this thread. And I’m very sympathetic to Sandman’s comments because in my field I see a lot of this phenomenon.

Many of you came here as a students. A lot of us don’t have the luxury of free time and freedom from other responsibilities that you have.

Someone older usually has a full-time job, financial commitments, and maybe even family to consider. The idea of taking 4-6 hours out of the week (the amount that would really produce results) to study Chinese is a much more significant sacrifice than for somebody young, single and able to live the cheap life.

I’m able to give directions in a taxi, order food, politely complain if it’s not right, and have a basic conversation if my Taiwanese acquaintance is patient and talks slowly. I’m sure my skills would be much better if I had the time to study again. But within a 50 hour work week and an hour commute, it’s a bit of a tight fit for my schedule.

As far as those with arguments of cultural insensitivity, you have some serious ‘sensitivity’ issues yourselves.

42

Far more eloquently put than my curmudgeonly growl, Bighairyface. Glad to see I’m not the only culturally insensitive, lazy ignoramus on Forumosa. :wink:

43

:laughing:
my vines

44

I’m married to a Taiwanese man, I have a 4 month old child, I’ve been here 4 or 5 years I guess, and I speak only basic Mandarine and a few words of Taiwanese. Here are MY reasons:

When I arrived on this island I taught 14 or more hr.s a day. In English. My students spoke to me in English. This went on for months.

When I got married I began taking Mandarine classes because I thought if I was going to be here for a good while, I might like to know what all the “background noise” was about. However my husband’s family all speak Taiwanese to him or to eachother, and some of them do not speak Mandarine. This did not matter to me, though. I quit those classes because of a family emergency in my home country. I had to go “home” and then had to return here for a death in my husband’s family and with all the commotion, never went back to class.

After this my husband and I moved from Kaohsiung to Taipei and I worked and supported (mostly) us until my pregnancy. This was simply because jobs were easier for me to find and I made more. Jobs are hard to come by for most Taiwanese in this depressed market. I woked, again, teaching English.

I now stay home now with my son. My husband and I speak mostly English at home. I speak more Chinese to my son than my husband does! This is not because we don’t want him to speak Mandarine and Taiwanese, but because my husband has a slight speach problem and doesn’t make clear tones so he feels more confident in English. I don’t feel it’s a problem because my son will learn Mandarine and Taiwanese outside our home. I speak Mandarine and Spanish to him just to get in a little pratice for myself!

Most Stay at Home Moms in any culture get a little isolated. I’m having the same problem now.

In the past, when I have tried to speak Mandarine to Taiwanese people, I get the strangest looks and people act like they’ve just been asked for something in their language by a monkey.

I’ve had employers here tell me that they didn’t want me to speak Chinese because I’m a better product with out it.

It’s not just because I have a Taiwanese husband who takes care of most things for me, though this is true, I don’t need Mandarine to live here. I didn’t need it before I met him.

So please don’t blast us all as lazy. I trully hope to one day have a good command of Mandarine.

45

Welcome to the club of culturally insensitive, lazy ignoramusses, Housecat! :wink:

46

I really can’t bring myself to jeer at people who have not been able to acquire substantial fluency in Mandarin and/or Taiwanese despite having lived here for a very long time. Of course, if they cannot even manage a few very basic exchanges, that is rather pathetic

47

I’ll add more fuel to the fire.

If you don’t speak Mandarin and read Chinese in Taiwan, you are not a “fully functional” member of society. I’m sorry, you just aren’t.

This is highly literate society where 90% of the people speak Mandarin. The percentage is probably even higher in Taipei.

Would you say that someone in the UK who can’t even read their own phone bill is a fully functional member of society? Who can’t fill out an employment application? Who can’t understand a news broadcast? Or can’t articulate themselves in a meeting at work?

I’m not saying that Sandman can or can’t do these things. I’m just saying that it is reasonable to expect that people who live in place for years acquire the language skills they need to function fully.

I’m not jeering at people who can’t speak Mandarin. Hell, I’d like to speak Mandarin better myself. Nor do I think that you are culturally insensitive if you choose not do do so. But you are choosing not to, and by doing so you are denying yourself a richer, fuller life in Taiwan.

48

Here’s something hot off the wires (just landed in my inbox) which confirms how difficult it is for native speakers of English (and presumably other European languages) to learn Mandarin:

49

I do think it’s tough to learn Chinese (see my posts above).

But this seems odd to me. English has tones too. We use them for different things though. There is a falling tone on ‘WH’ questions and a rising one on Yes/No questions to cite an easy example. So where do we process intonation when we speak English?

50

Taiwan have been very very good to me.

51

I did not say I’m a fully functional member of society, I said I’m a fully functional member of the society in which I live. There’s a difference. And how dare you have the arrogance to presume anything about the richness of my life here. Or that it would be any richer if I spent my time seeking out strangers in order to have banal conversations in order to show off my prowess in a foreign language – I already have far, far more friends and acquaintances from all over the world than I have spare time in which to see them.

Not that you’re accussing anyone of being a dumb schmuck, but I fail to see any difference whatsoever in the person who doesn’t know Chinese and the person who doesn’t know how to plumb in a washing machine, rewire his house or fit a seamless tongue and groove.

The simple fact of the matter is that in Taipei, you simply don’t need more than a smattering of Chinese in order to have a rich and fulfilling life. I’m sorry, but you just don’t.

By that, I can only assume that you mean “By refusing to quit your job, you are denying yourself the opportunity to pander to your vanity by learning Chinese.” Because in my case, that is precisely what it would require. Again, how dare you presume what I am or am not “choosing” to do.

52

This article about Chinese using two sides of the brain because of tones is interesting. I’ve always likened the first tone to someone singing-- literally. I wonder if people who are good at music tend to pick up Chinese more quickly. I played violin for many years and Chinese was easy for me, I wonder if there’s a correlation. I’ve noticed a lot of foreigners don’t take tones seriously when they’re starting out, they figure this totally core element of the language is not important. And then we wonder why their Chinese sucks after studying it for so long. Reminds me of when I took ballroom dance lessons and I thought it was totally easy but all these other people were stumbling around stepping on each other’s toes. A lot of them learned the steps without focusing on the basic element of counting, then wondered why after a few lessons they were still stumbling around like idiots. Back to basics!

53

This article about Chinese using two sides of the brain because of tones is interesting. I’ve always likened the first tone to someone singing-- literally. I wonder if people who are good at music tend to pick up Chinese more quickly. I played violin for many years and Chinese was easy for me, I wonder if there’s a correlation. I’ve noticed a lot of foreigners don’t take tones seriously when they’re starting out, they figure this totally core element of the language is not important. And then we wonder why their Chinese sucks after studying it for so long. Reminds me of when I took ballroom dance lessons and I thought it was totally easy but all these other people were stumbling around stepping on each other’s toes. A lot of them learned the steps without focusing on the basic element of counting, then wondered why after a few lessons they were still stumbling around like idiots. Back to basics![/quote]

That’s my excuse!

Being probably the worst singer on the planet–I hear the rhythm, but sing flat–Chinese comes slowly.

54

The Chinese/music thing does seem to ring true. And after hearing Sandman blow his thingy last Saturday i think we have all the evidence we need! A cute winky thing would be right here if i knew what i was doing…

55

I’ve noticed a lot of laowai who don’t start learning Mandarin (or Taiwanese) in the first 6 months to a year of being here are the ones who never do. Don’t feel like playing catch up? Decided they get along ok without it?

An article by some linguist or another long ago stuck in my mind. The basic argument was that motivation is the key to success in language learning, and the best motivation was some positive view of the people that spoke the target language, and want to be included in that group. Simple expediency didn’t cut it, nor convenience, nor other forms of pressure. I failed miserably to learn Cantonese because I simply didn’t want to be friends with people who made noises like that with their mouths. Mandarin and (to a lesser extent) Taiwanese have come easily. So did Thai, Hindi, Urdu…

While I don’t look down on those laowai who don’t/won’t/can’t learn the lingo, I feel sorry for them in some way, condemned to live as a spectator.

OTH, there are plenty of days when I wish I couldn’t understand the stupid babbling going on around me…

56

Ahhh, would that that were true! Unfortunately, no winkies are needed there – I have no misconceptions about the extent of my horn skills (which is another reason for not doing Chinese – after all what’s more important? Music or Chinese?).

And Hsiadogah, I know what you mean about feeling sorry for those destined to stand on the sidelines as spectators – I feel EXACTLY the same way about those who cannot execute a perfect telemark turn in deep powder.

57

Yes but isolating oneself from the society in which one lives is different from not being able to do a particular sport well.

58

Live life as a spectator? Non-speakers of Mandarin need a ‘serious slap in the face’? Can’t be fully functional members of society? Really this is too much. Does speaking the lingo really turn you into Superman?

59

Feiren, if ‘your’ main social area is on the slopes, or where ever, being able to do a ‘perfect telemark’ would speak volumes more than a command of the lingo.

60

I feel like I am jumping into a donnybrook unarmed.

Very brief: Sandman’s identification of being functional within the subset of society is key. We all choose to what degree we wish to integrate into any society, be it with a foreign language or not.
I think there is no question, the better your Chinese, the more you can access by yourself. But within the realm that one lives, it is all relative as to the need to speak/write/read Chinese.
I do think that a person that comes here and doesn’t bother to learn past the 10-word stage is simply being rude. When I meet a Mexican in LA who has been there for years and can’t even tell me the time of day, I think, “Shit, you are here in my country for all this time and you can’t even be polite in the most basic communications?”

On a tangent, and if you disagree with the above you can start here: A lot of people who were brought up in an English-speaking country could really improve upon their English.