Loving Taiwan, Criticizing Taiwan

Taiwan Living in Taiwan
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[color=#0000FF]Mod note: the opening posts have been split from “[url=Dearest Taiwan, please learn to queue! Taiwan, please learn to queue![/url]”.[/color]

I’ve always thought the Taiwanese temperament very similar to the Italians - if I had to compare with any other nationality. The way they love food and traffic chaos (they do love it, right? they wouldn’t drive that way if they didn’t), their social attitudes (pretty freewheeling except when it comes to parents’ diktats), their sleazy incompetent politicians whom they elect again and again, and their ability to be breathtakingly rude when they feel like it (except the Italians do it with a bit more style). I certainly don’t find much in common here with other Asian cultures, except the visceral need to pour concrete in ugly shapes wherever they see a few square meters of tree-covered land.[/quote]

Go to China. The rudeness there is like the worst of Taiwan x10 and 5x as likely to be encountered on an hourly basis. In South Korea you have shit traffic, queuing, and the racism gets damn hostile at times. In South Korea, as an American, you’ll overhear (usually younger) people talking about how they’d wish South Korea could have North Korea’s nuclear technology so they can take care of the Americans once and for all… Some allies. I knew a group of South Korean exchange students. They were good friends, but I got taken aback when they told me they never thought of white people as human until they got to know me. Japanese have a fascination with foreigners but are xenophobic as well. And about manners, they also have problems queuing in smaller cities outside of Tokyo and Kyoto. The point is, Taiwan is about the politest spot in Asia (Japan a little moreso I think), and Southeast Asia is all MUCH worse than here. Your comparison of Twese with Italians actually applies to most of Asia and least of all to Taiwan if you’re talking about extremes, in my experience.

EDIT: As for politics here, Taiwan’s a democracy, and although some of the politicians are sleazy, I don’t think Ma is much sleazier than Obama and he’s much better than Bush was. Also, Any British politician is just as much a scumbag as most of the Taiwanese politicians. I think in general the local politicians are pretty sincere, and the fact that Taiwan is pretty democratic is more than you can say for China. Also Asian, by the way. And also sharing a lot in culture with the Taiwanese. In fact most SE Asian countries aren’t democracies. In fact, the traffic there is much worse and the politics corrupt (Thailand, Philippines) or just plain broken (Myanmar, North Korea though not SE Asian).

I only mention this because of your last sentence, which seems to imply that you operate under a sad illusion that Taiwanese people are especially, shall we say, “underdeveloped” in manners and social consciousness, when the opposite is true. What IS true is that foreigners in Taiwan tend to feel very possessive of Taiwan in comparison to foreigners in other, larger Asian countries, and they feel like that gives them license to be really critical of it as well. So online, you get this illusion, if you don’t look carefully, that Taiwan is the worst off East Asian country, but I’ve been to Japan, I’ve been to China, and I’ve been to Korea, Thailand, Singapore, Hong Kong, and the Philippines… and let’s just say I’m not just still here in Taiwan for the ladies. Life here is better. PEOPLE here are better. Sometimes I just think these forums have one too many bitchy comment for my liking, so sorry this turned into a rant. The only exception where I’d say society is better elsewhere in Asia is possibly Singapore, and even then they’re far too consumer-driven for my taste (making Taiwan looking like pinko Commies), and you still have some politeness issues there.

Anyway, I hope you like it here more than your isolated comment makes it seem!

Night markets seem to have lines down to a science! The best part about Taiwanese in these situations is their sheer patience. Americans and Canadians, at least, wouldn’t wait in line patiently for 10 minutes for a corn dog, for example, or 30 minutes for a baked potato.

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I think you hit the nail on the head there. Especially long termers. They tend to feel Taiwan is Home, and criticism is basically an outlet for a real desire to see things change even more for the better.

As for queuing, I’m just glad that I don’t have anyone trying to arse grind me from behind like in South Africa anymore!

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You’re starting from the assumption that ‘The West’ is democratic :wink: Having an election every four years is a poor shadow of democracy. What we have is social cohesiveness - trust, rule of law, whatever you want to call it. Whether that results from having “democracy” is a moot point.

Yes, British politicians are also scumbags, but at least they make a good pretence of looking honest, earnest, and competent. Taiwanese policians - and I’m thinking here of the little guys, not the cabinet (who are, mostly, clever and upstanding) are scumbags so illiterate and unschooled that they throw tantrums (and other things) when they run out of words during debates. Basically, they’re taxi drivers in suits. In England, they would rise no higher than the district council (probably representing the BNP).

From whom does one need to obtain this ‘license’ to be critical? I criticise because I’m a curmudgeonly old git, but also because (as Bismarck mentions) I think this is a great country and it could be even greater. No doubt Taiwanese people in England shake their heads and roll their eyes at the lack of public transport and the awful, awful food - and it’s a pity English people don’t take notice. Taiwanese people aren’t more or less “developed” than anyone else, but they are different, sometimes in ways that could be objectively considered ‘worse’, and sometimes ‘better’. In general, I’d say the 'better’s outnumber the 'worse’s. That’s why I live here.

There’s another reason we criticise: in many areas, we’ve been there and done that. What we’re saying is, “That thing you’re doing there? We’ve tried that. Doesn’t work. Don’t do it”. I’m thinking here of environmental issues, especially, where Taiwanese people STILL believe that one must choose between “the environment” and “the economy”, despite all the evidence from other countries that they are essentially the same thing.

I don’t think Taiwan attracts more criticism than anywhere else in Asia; we just happen to be on a BBS called “Forumosa”. And we piss and moan not because we think Taiwan is an irredeemable shithole, but because we think it has a much, much better chance of success than (say) The Philippines and does itself no favours when it adopts shithole-like policies (e.g., allowing people to drive without taking a proper driving course/test). The better rants on here suggest ways of fixing things rather than just grumbling - and that makes for a good debate.

I do :slight_smile:

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One thing that always seemed weird to me was talking to friends back in the US who loved it in China or Taiwan when they were there, but whenever I encounter a foreigner in Taiwan or China, they’re absolutely miserable and just bitching and moaning about everything,usually things I do not view as problems at all. In Korea, foreigners tend to to be pretty content in my experience, but racism can be a problem there of course (though most people will only be racist in Korean so foreigners won’t know the difference). Japan seems to be a love it or hate it place. But still, I’ve participated on forums about Hong Kong, Singapore, and Japan, and never seen a thread full of pissing and moaning, but on Forumosa it’s like… every other thread contains some complaint.

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Gotta agree with dash. I’ve lived in TW over 4 years and whenever something bugs me about this, I remember about how much better it is than so many other countries in Asia.

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From whom does one need to obtain this ‘license’ to be critical?[/quote]

He’s been to China. Maybe that’s what he was thinking of. Maybe in China you need a license for that sort of thing.

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I guess what I mean is that foreigners love to take their ethnocentric stance, feel all high and mighty, and piss and moan about every little pet peeve in Taiwan. I shouldn’t say, “license”. The way folks do it, it’s more like they see it as a duty of theirs… it’s like they HAVE to complain, maybe they think their enlightened Western opinions will save this country.

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Well, a lot of us start off that way, but I think over time, most of us realize the futility of it and more or less come to accept the reality of our environment. Here’s an example:

[quote]As some of you may know, I work as a volunteer crossing guard and have been doing so for the last 5 years. Every afternoon, I head down to my daughter’s school, direct kids, parking and traffic. Usually takes about 30 minutes a day…I enjoy putting in my time, and have taken pride in the knowledge that I’ve done my part to make some sort of contribution and increase driver awareness/safety.

I keep things pretty well organized when doing this, (making scooters, cars and kindy buses park in designated areas) and it runs well. I had assumed that the morning volunteers, after years of watching me do it would follow suit.

I was wrong.

Wednesday at 11:30 I showed up and got ready for the onslaught of kids and cars (busiest day of the week). As soon as I arrived, the wreckage of a scooter could be seen right in front of the gate with two huge pools of semi-cleaned bloodstains in front of it. Evidently a couple of hours before, a woman in a hurry decided to ignore the rules and pulled up directly in front of the gate, dropped of her kid and pulled a U turn without looking. You know where this is going right?

The scooter was coming down the road after dropping her child off at the front entrance and slammed into the U-turning car at about 40kph. The passenger, another one of her kids, went up, over and landed straight on her head, suffering massive head trauma and a broken neck. She wasn’t wearing a helmet…

At around noon yesterday, she died.

It’s obvious now that the second I take off my vest and put away my camera the system returns to it’s usual insanity and that everthing I did made absolutely no difference the second I left.

It meant nothing, and I was a fool to ever believe differently.[/quote] Senseless tragedy in Yangmei

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This example is very extreme, anecdotal, and an emotional attachment to the case seems to give the author credibility and the ability to make a clear judgment when in fact it robs him/her of it. It’s true that traffic here is chaotic, but it’s not as bad as in many many other countries, including parts of Europe (Italy, Easterm Europe) America (Ummm Queens? LA? Chicago? MUCH worse traffic), Mexico, South America, and most of Asia. One stupid woman’s mistake in this story does not necessarily reflect on 100% of the other drivers. Also, I don’t know about where this person is from, but we have traffic directors back in the US, and even in America, without them, busy intersections will see more accidents. That’s why they’re there; to prevent these accidents.

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dash, you seem to be confusing traffic, as in lots of cars on the road, with dangerous driving conditions. You also seem to have a pretty ignorant disregard for the fact that when most people are complaining about traffic here they are likely doing so because it’s a daily occurrence to have your life threatened.

It’s reasonably safe to walk across a sidewalk now in Taipei without fear of getting wiped out by a car turning but that’s something very new and not at all shared by the rest of the country. It’s still completely common for one driver to try to pass a row of cars on a mountain road. God help you if you are in the other lane. It’s completely common for people to run red lights, pass on the shoulder, speed, tailgate, and do a million other reckless gestures with such frequency that it would be a rare car or scooter trip where you did not have your life threatened several times.

This does not happen back home. You know that. Accidents do happen, but it is not a daily, hourly event to have a close call. People gripe about traffic here because it’s fucking really stressful.

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I really just don’t have that bad of an experience with traffic here in Taipei City. I’ve seen shit that’ll make your shit turn purple in rural areas… but I have seen far worse drivers notably in Beijing, Shenzhen, Chicago (I volunteered in a poor community there once and NO ONE knew how to drive properly), and Bangkok.
It’s a lot more than “reasonably safe to walk across a sidewalk” in Taipei… That’s an absurd thing to say, and unnecessary. It’s true, seeing someone run a red light is virtually a daily occurrence, and there is little respect for the pedestrian’s right of way, but I don’t think it’s as bad as other places, or even here just a few years ago. I studied abroad in Danshui several years ago and it wasn’t that bad then, and it has gotten much better since. The problem with Taipei’s traffic, in my experience, is scooters, plain and simple… Scooters are the devil.

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[quote=“dashgalaxy86”]It’s a lot more than “reasonably safe to walk across a sidewalk” in Taipei…[/quote] Think he meant crosswalk.

[quote]. . . but I have seen far worse drivers notably in Beijing, Shenzhen, Chicago. . . .[/quote] So I guess if someone gets killed here, they should consider themselves lucky, 'cause they’d have been, like, double-killed in those places.

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[quote=“dashgalaxy86”]I really just don’t have that bad of an experience with traffic here in Taipei City. I’ve seen shit that’ll make your shit turn purple in rural areas… but I have seen far worse drivers notably in Beijing, Shenzhen, Chicago (I volunteered in a poor community there once and NO ONE knew how to drive properly), and Bangkok.
It’s a lot more than “reasonably safe to walk across a sidewalk” in Taipei… That’s an absurd thing to say, and unnecessary. It’s true, seeing someone run a red light is virtually a daily occurrence, and there is little respect for the pedestrian’s right of way, but I don’t think it’s as bad as other places, or even here just a few years ago. I studied abroad in Danshui several years ago and it wasn’t that bad then, and it has gotten much better since. The problem with Taipei’s traffic, in my experience, is scooters, plain and simple… Scooters are the devil.[/quote]

Those are all (with the exception of Chicago) parts of developing countries. Even the region of Chicago you mention is poor. We are talking about traffic in a developed country with universal literacy and a city, Taipei, with more degree holders than any in Asia. Traffic is simply appalling for the level of development here.

How is it absurd (and yes, as Charlie pointed out, I obviously meant crosswalk)? It is only very recently that cars making a turn would not force people on the crosswalk to stop or dash out of their way. Even now it is pretty common and SOP in every other part of the country.

Not being able to cross on a crosswalk without worry that cars will not stop for you makes for an unreasonably unsafe environment. Not being able to go for a Sunday drive without the very high probability that you will have a few scary incidents is unreasonable. People have every right to complain about this. They only have one life and a limited number of limbs.

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I think the media needs to get involved. There should be public humiliation punishments for people who are at fault for accidents. Have your photo and name posted on the news and some website and be forced to get retested.

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Enforcement is the real key here. When enforced, traffic laws are obeyed. The Syeushan Tunnel is a perfect example. The gov made it clear that if you sped through the tunnel or tailgated you would get repeated tickets. You could end up with tens of thousands of dollars in fines from a single ride. It worked.

The MRT is another example. Why do people cue here and not on regular trains? Enforcement in the beginning which led to a culture of being civilized.

Or buses. You obviously don’t remember the days when drivers were all reckless maniacs. It took Ma ying-jeou’s daughter getting in an accident to bring about the change.

The media could help to make people aware of what the standards should be (so many are completely unaware) but it has to be matched with enforcement.

And just to repeat, as a resident, tax payer, and property owner in this country, I have every right to express my dissatisfaction with the way things operate here. My guest days are long long behind me.

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Even simpler than bringing in the CCP tactics - [b]
JUST HAVE THE TAIWAN POLICE DO THEIR FUCKING JOBS.

[/b]

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Even simpler than bringing in the CCP tactics - [b]
JUST HAVE THE TAIWAN POLICE DO THEIR FUCKING JOBS.

[/b][/quote]
Here, here!

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You mean where the Taiwanese go when they need an organ transplant?
Yeah! They rely on this kind of traffic to support their industry.