Economics is always determined on a relative scale. Usually within ones own market or at least within peers.
So the short answer to your question, Yes the economy on Taiwan is very bad at this point. The worst it has been in about a decade. Compared to the other “Economic Tigers” in the region Taiwan is in last place 4 years in a row on most bench marks.
Non-political economic analysis have warned Taiwan repeatedly that they are missing a great opportunity in the PRC by having self restrained economic policies.
Self-restraining economic policies are bad, but Taiwan is not as bad as people want it to be.
But, and that is what is the matter here, what are you prepared to give up what in order to be part of this reunion?
I guess that, by the example of Hong-Kong, China will not be willing to give any sovereignity to Taiwan and it’s people. The only thing that China will give are the things that are in the Basic Law, as in HK. As far as political representation, it is easy to believe that the same principle of “if it is not against CNP rule, it might be heard”. How do you think Ma will cut a deal with China without loosing sovereignity and the full democratic rights that the people of Taiwan now enjoy? Sure didn’t happen in HK.
Don’t forget that under the “One China, two systems” rule, the One China is before, so any system that might go agains this “One China” (the CNP one, surelly), will be totally overruled because “One China” comes before.
So, unless I am really stupid or there is something really excaping my line of sight, I still don’t know why will people loose theyr freedom to join China. Are you guys willing to become part again of an authoritarian rule?
Self-restraining economic policies are bad, but Taiwan is not as bad as people want it to be.
But, and that is what is the matter here, what are you prepared to give up what in order to be part of this reunion?
I guess that, by the example of Hong-Kong, China will not be willing to give any sovereignity to Taiwan and it’s people. The only thing that China will give are the things that are in the Basic Law, as in HK. As far as political representation, it is easy to believe that the same principle of “if it is not against CNP rule, it might be heard”. How do you think Ma will cut a deal with China without losing sovereignity and the full democratic rights that the people of Taiwan now enjoy? Sure didn’t happen in HK.
Don’t forget that under the “One China, two systems” rule, the One China is before, so any system that might go agains this “One China” (the CNP one, surelly), will be totally overruled because “One China” comes before.
So, unless I am really stupid or there is something really excaping my line of sight, I still don’t know why will people loose theyr freedom to join China. Are you guys willing to become part again of an authoritarian rule?[/quote]
Boogie, I agree that the Taiwanese should be wary of any sort of one country, two systems offer from the PRC and that there are fundamental flaws with how it has worked in HK, but there are also some flaws in your comparison. There wasn’t much institutionalized democracy for Beijing to take away from Hong Kong. Sure, they rolled back some of what Patten did, but have strangely done pretty much exactly what he did in following years. Beijing promised that HK would be allowed to keep the same “system” for 50 years. The problem isn’t that they’ve rolled anything back, but that “keeping the same system” can be interpreted in a way that keeps any reform moving at a slower pace than what many would like.
My bet is that if Beijing made the same promise for Taiwan, it would probably mean that Taiwan could keep most of what it has. However, I don’t think the mainlanders will make an agreement unless whatever system Taiwan has is ultimately made politically subservient to Beijing. They may not want daily control of everything, but I believe that they want to enjoy the final say whenever they choose to exercise it. They having that final say could mean that any future reforms in Taiwan’s political system will be slowed down by Beijing, just as they have done with Hong Kong.
Yes… They can… Any Mainland citizen can apply or a holiday visa to visit Hong Kong, hundreds of thousands a month do… Been to Hong Kong lately? Wondered how Hong Kong’s tourist economy is still going strong even in a post SARS, pre bird flu world? Ever wonder why Disney Land didn’t shut down after the entire population of Hong Kong went there during the first week? Ever wonder how HK and Taiwanese alone could possibly keep the Casinos turning over on Macau? Clearly not… It’s because hundreds of thousands of Mainland Chinese easily visit Hong Kong and Macau day in day out…
No offense Mr.Boogie, but you must be one of the most poorly informed posters in TP… Someone’s giving you bad information, a lot of it…
Yes, they can go on holiday VISA, but, can they move there? what happens to them if they decide to stay in China (assuming that both HK and Macau are China)?
It is the same as in Taiwan, only that Taiwanese authorities have tight control on theyr mainlander counterparts, because if one mainlander comes here illegal, it is very hard to detect.
Jive Turkey: If you see the representatives of HK government (Legco) now, you will see that the direct elected legislators are now in a position where they cannot do anything, as theyr number is reduced to a minimum. And let us not forget that the democratic camp allways won elections, but never was on power. So, the Legco is de fectum, nothing but a puppet of Beijing, as half of it, at least, has to be “patriotic” (pro-Beijing). So they only need to secure 1 more to get an absolute majority, which is not hard, as long as Beijing continues to butter the capitallist in HK. It is also true that special people can vote more than once in this ellections, making it a complete flaw.
Jive Turkey: If you see the representatives of HK government (Legco) now, you will see that the direct elected legislators are now in a position where they cannot do anything, as theyr number is reduced to a minimum.[/quote]
Uh, the Legislative Council has NEVER had any real power. And what are you talking about when you say that the number of directly elected legislators has been reduced to a minimum? There are more directly elected seats in Legco, both in number and proportion, than there ever have been.
This is exactly what Beijing laid out from the beginning. Legco has ALWAYS been a body that is subordinate to the sovereign power, whether it be the British or the PRC.
Hmm, how to say this politely. NO FUCKING SHIT, SHERLOCK! Of course the system is badly flawed. Is it really any worse than what passed for government under the Brits? That seems to be what you are saying. In my opinion, the answer is no, it is not worse, though it is definitely a system in need of major changes.
So, if this system is badly flawed and nothing but a puppet of Beijing, how come people in Taiwan think that there should be any difference in action from Beijing? I don’t. They will propose it the same way they proposed it to HK and Macau. Capitalists will stay with theyr possessions and can get positions in the “machine”, as long as they are patriotic. And the invisioning of many of the reunion supporters is that they will get these positions, being the KMT the most interested party on getting them. Do you think that if there is a reunion, that it will be the same as now?
Just to clear things out, I’m not blue or green. I do not collate myself to such a stupid way of thinking… What I believe is that Ma should start thinking in working for Taipei city instead of working to be president one day. People are paying him to be Taipei’s Mayor, for god sake. If he wants to “clean” up the country, why doesn’t he start in Taipei. Plenty of bad examples are ard the town for him to work on them. Maybe he should spend 1 day at least explaining why there is no traffic conciousness inside Taipei, why is it so chaotic? People here couldn’t care less about laws because no one is enforcing them. Why there is no single person here who is caring about how pedestrians are second class citizens. No one really cares if you don’t have a sidewalk. The important is to make every street as bigger for cars as possible.
You know Taipei traffic has improved quite a bit in the past decade. With the advent of the “scooter box” in the front of the traffic light and the turn only lanes.
If only Taiwan’s central government would give Taipei more money to do public projects. Of course given that the central government is Green and Taipei mayor is Blue, we have already seen Taipei annual budget become political football for the past 5 years.
Does Macau and HK get to keep their own military?
I think you are getting ahead of yourself here. There is no negotiations going on. There is no frame work of negotiations to the Strait Issue. All Mayor Ma has on the Strait Issue thus far is “1992 Consensus;” each side has their own interpretation of “One China.”
How did you get HK and Macau (1C2S) from the 1992 Consensus is beyond me.
What’s you point? Die hard pan-Green supporters go to PRC to make money, and as the “change winds” blows they will take ads in the Taiwan paper denoucing TI or start putting PRC flags on their shipping vessels. Business people of course value money make opportunities above all else, that’s why we call them Business people and not Holy men.
Career politicians will do anything to keep their positions. Look at Mr. “Bow tie” in HK. A knight of the British system, now head of HK.
You think every politician is a “Long Hair”, Li Ao, or VP Lu. People wear their hearts on their sleeves, speak exactly what’s on their minds, and says damn the system.
Even if re-unification was the on the horizon in the near future, you can bet opportunist politicians like LTH and CSB will be switching sides and memorizing passages from the little red book.
That’s way if I had to choose between all the idiots that pursue politics for their livelihood on Taiwan, Ma would be my choice at this time. The guy is pragmatic about the issue. He won’t get bogged down by Taiwanese idealogy like CSB.
I mean seriously, CSB has been focused on trying to convince everyone on Taiwan Dr. Sun was a foriegner. WTF does that have to do with improving people’s lives on Taiwan. Re-writing Taiwan history is not going to solve the problem.
I just wanted to make clear that I am not a green or blue, I couldn’t detest them more, both of them, as DPP never proved to do better than KMT anyway. It is just my ideology (I’m extreme left, btw), so I am one of the guys who sit in the camp and fight against things he believes wrong. Hell, I was in HK in the WTO.
What I believe is that, no matter what people say, any thought that means supporting a tottaly authoritarist, with no regard on human rights and whatsoever, government, should never ever be helped or praised. It should be stepped down. I preffer to have countries where governments fear the people. In PRC, people fear the government, and by doing that, they are keeping self development low. What truth is coming from there we will never know, as shown with the way they treated the Falun Gong, the SARS and the chemical spills. What truth is coming into PRC, when there is a Great Firewall. What really is going on in the PRC we cannot see?
I got a scooter, blue plastic flip-flops, and a mouth full of red binlang juice. Fear me Taiwan I am unbound. :loco:[/quote]
You’re not afraid of Taiwanese on scooters? :loco:
My favorite slave owner that had sex with underage black girls. What can a slave owner teach me about liberty? I assure you not many people in Taiwan read Jefferson. You really need to put down the USA propoganda book :roflmao:
Jive Turkey,
Only the young women brave enough to wear a mini-skirt on those things. I swear I almost got into an accident once watching one of those beauties pass me by. :moped:
I posted that one because I really like that sentence. It is a timeless quote, like the one from Plato I posted before. But I guess it is too complicated for you to understand. Why the DPP is making so much noise now, maybe because it is afraid of public oppinion. When governments are afraid of theyr people’s opinnion, they work better, believe me.
But you support to live in a country where public oppinion is good only if it favours the government, because the socialist values are above all, and no man is more wise than Chairman Mao, also known as God. Ala, Budha or whatever. I would say that Mao deserves to be put in the same shelf as Hittler, Stalin, CKS, Enver Pasha, Pol Pot and Hirohito.
I couldn’t care less for US propaganda, I’m not from US, not want to be from US and could do very well without theyr BS.
Those quote only illustrate how out of touch with Taiwan society you are commenting on. Plato and Jefferson may be canon literature in the West, which conveys a sense of erudition for the poster. But on Taiwan they are alien.
To make sense in Chinese on Taiwan you would need to quote Chinese historical figures on the subject. There are many past historical figures in Chinese history that have commented on what is neccessary to rule a just and fair nation.
Some left leaning pot smoking Chinese hippie even compared running a country to cooking a small fish. Probably had the munchies from one of his drug induced meditations. But he is immortalized in Chinese society now
Here’s a famous Chinese quote about nation building that captures your Jefferson theme.
先天下之憂而憂，後天下之樂而樂
loosely translated “If welfare is of your concern, then the happiness of the common people comes first.”
So the Chinese had intellects lecturing about political philosophy for ages. So what’s the difference?
Or have the Chinese not mastered the art of double standards yet. To have a domestic policy that is vastly different from their foriegn policy, like the USA for instance.
Because what Jefferson quote should really say to reflect his true position in life as a slave owner
“When the Black people fear their government, there is order; when the government fears the White people, there is liberty.”
–Tommy “once I went black, never went back” Jefferson, slave screwer and occassional pedophile.
You’re not going to get far with quotse out of middle school social study courses, mr_boogie. It doesn’t really matter to the rest of us whether you hate or adore Mao, Hitler, CKS, or Bush. It doesn’t change any of our opinions, nor does it make any difference on what I like to call “reality”.
“Liberty”? Who’s liberty, exactly? Is it the liberty that Catalonians and Basques are denied in Spain… Or the version of liberty which allows Irving to be jailed for a thought-crime in Austria? Is it the “liberty” that restricts Taiwanese from studying, retiring, and investing their own wealth on mainland China? Or, as ac_dropout points out, is it the “liberty” of slave-owning Thomas Jefferson?
Can you tell us how many post-colonial third-world nations, reveling in the fruits of liberty, have been brought out of poverty into first-world classes? Is it Brazil that we should be learning from, with a glaring gini coefficient that barely describes the disgusting poverty which exists on the edges of outrageous wealth… much of which is accumulated in the hands of Portugese-speaking European elites?
China has a thousand obstacles facing it, and it’s done poorly on numerous accounts. It needs to improve, dramatically. But I find it self-serving and intellectually dishonest to wave “liberty” around as a club with which China’s genuine interests and motivations should be challenged. The lack of “liberty” as you define it does not mean China should be denied the right to aspire to a stronger, united nation, with the divisions of history and ideology healed by reconcillation and growth.
[quote] I would say that Mao deserves to be put in the same shelf as Hittler, Stalin, CKS, Enver Pasha, Pol Pot and Hirohito.
[/quote]
Actually, it’s Hitler, one “t” not two.
And I wouldn’t put CKS on the same shelf as Mao.
Both were brutal dictators and craved power, but at least CKS was a patriot, and he was disciplined.
Read the recent biography on him by Jonathan Fenby - he rose at 5 every morning to do his exercises and meditate, before he began his work for the day.
He was also well groomed and dignified - now there’s something some of the locals around here could learn from him.
Mao was a lazy, disgusting slob who slept in on a regular basis and never bathed.
For sure you also know that Brazil is independent from 1822. For sure you also know that the guidelines of the independence treaty assure that the slave trading would end. Most of the brazilian money is not on portuguese hands, I can assure you. As with Argentina, Brazil shares also a dark history on accepting “bad fellows” to go live and invest in there. And don’t forget that many Italians also went to Brazil in the early 20th century. But Brazil is a poor country, no doubt, as every country who was left decades and decades underneath a dictatorship.
I am completelly against what the portuguese did in most of the colonies, specially in the dictatorship time (but they did bad enough inside the country, leaving it 50 years behind the rest of the Europe). That is why I am so against those things. Fortunatelly I didn’t live the dictatorship times (was born 2 years later), but I can tell you stories of my mother while pregnant of me running with my brothers (ages 3,2 and 1) escaping gunshots in the streets, on the post-revolution period. That is something that no person should feel. And I know what is to live in a post-revolutionary country, where things like education are a third matter… You were lucky of having a smooth passage from dictatorship to democracy, this I can assure you.
About the Basques and the Catalonians, you are talking about 2 different things. Basques are not part only of Spain, but also of France, and the region of Spain where they are is called Basque Country (that is the translation of the spanish name). The ETA movement started because of the attempt of Franco to anihillate the Basque identity, specially theyr language. Same happened with the Catalonia. What is important to know also is that both of Basque Country and Catalonia are by far the richest areas of Spain, and they are mostly against the unequal division of funds in Spain, as most of it was and is put into Madrid. If you go to the Catalonian interior (Lleida, Reus, Tarragona, etc…) and speak spanish, most probably you will be ignored by everyone (including in caffes). Both of the Basque Country and Catalonia have different languages and identities, so they are by far more complicated subjects. However, independence is now not really an issue since they got authonomic governments from Madrid. Even if you go to Catalonia, you will rarelly see a Spanish flag, rarelly ear spanish, and you will doubt you are in Spain. But with the European Union the interest for independency went down a lot.
Any Mainland citizen can apply or a holiday visa to visit Hong Kong, hundreds of thousands a month do… Been to Hong Kong lately? Wondered how Hong Kong’s tourist economy is still going strong even in a post SARS, pre bird flu world? Ever wonder why Disney Land didn’t shut down after the entire population of Hong Kong went there during the first week? Ever wonder how HK and Taiwanese alone could possibly keep the Casinos turning over on Macau? Clearly not… It’s because hundreds of thousands of Mainland Chinese easily visit Hong Kong and Macau day in day out…