Well, for the most part, it’s not the DPP that is putting out this propaganda in English, but radical US-based (and in earlier days, Japan-based) organizations like WUFI, FAPA, TACL that drive the efforts to brainwash people who don’t know much about Taiwan – including US-born Taiwanese. Anyway, these organizations have always been from outside of the diplomatic system because they loathed the KMT. These days, the DPP is trying to co-opt them. It is ironic that most of the old-school US establishment has no idea what TI is truly about. They still think it’s to preserve the ROC against communism and to turn the mainland against communism. How wrong they are! TI/ers would want nothing less than to keep PRC communist and destroy the ROC.
[quote]You can talk about Taiwan’s Chinese culture, history of Chinese influence etc, and it is all true. But accepting all that, what makes Taiwan clearly different from other destinations of Chinese emigration during the past few hundred years? The Chinese in Sabah happily identify as Chinese (and Malaysian of course). Same in Singapore, Indonesia, and a bunch of other places. Nobody argues that these Chinese communities should be somehow reassimilated with the wonderful motherland.
[/quote]
Let’s not set up a straw-man, here.
No one is arguing here that because Taiwan remains a very “Chinese” society, that it must therefore be “reassimilated with the wonderful motherland”. And therefore, your analogy to Singapore, Indonesia, Malaysia, and even San Francisco really bears no relevance here.
The question being debated here is whether Taiwan is a Chinese society, and the answer to that is totally obvious. I’m sure Portugese has many Moorish loan-words in its language, but Taiwanese doesn’t have any Dutch loan-words. In fact, many have argued that Taiwan is a more Chinese society (in the traditional sense) than mainland China itself.
And let’s not think of China just in terms of “mainland, HK, Taiwan, Macau”. China is continental in size, with as much geographic diversity as you might find in all of Europe. There’s plenty of heterogeneity as you travel from region to region. The “different heritage” Taiwan boasts just complements the hugely “different heritage” found in numerous other corners of China, be it Inner Mongolia, Yanbian, Gansu, Sichuan, Guangdong, etc.
Now, could Taiwan develop a social identity that’s clearly different from mainstream Chinese identity, “just like the US/UK”? Of course it could, and certainly that’s what elements of the TI movement hope to bring to Taiwan. That’s exactly why Chinese tourists + spouses are limited; why Chinese students are limited; why Taiwanese retirees on the mainland are threatened with losing their pensions; why Taiwanese students on the mainland are threatened with arrest as draft-dodgers, etc, etc. But for that matter, Taipei could just as likely develop a novel, unique identity from Tainan.
Will these folks succeed? Well, they have a lot of work ahead of them. Only time will tell
I think that the point is clearly missed here. China is not interested in Taiwan for its people. There is too many things at stake when talking about Taiwan:
- Can you imagine if the CNP can seize all the assets now belonging to Taiwanese companies? I bet that most high-tech companies in China (under CNP rule) are dreaming about this…
- If Taiwan belongs to China, then China can go against the US predomination in the Pacific (Taiwan is a barrier that US needs to keep)
- Taiwan is also a matter of nationalism, a way to keep the “slaves” busy thinking on how proud they are of being chinese and not think about the human rights crimes that are commited agains them (what is normally called a fait-divers). As a Plato said - “When the tyrant has disposed of foreign enemies by conquest or treaty, and there is nothing to fear from them, then he is always stirring up some war or other in order that the people may require a leader”.
- It is a matter of pride for the CNP as getting Taiwan back would mean the absolute victory in the Chinese Civil War (no matter how you look at it)
What does Taiwan win to unify with China:
- Better access to China (although, that might go against CNP interests)
- Some people would get “fixed” positions (and the leaders of KMT are the most interested in this) because, as in HK, China would assign the rulers independently of people’s will. Don’t forget that most high class businessmen and politicians are and allways been in KMT and been getting profit from it (how many scollarships did KMT payed and how many of those people are not under KMT sphere?). Everyone in KMT is hoping that an approach with China will mean self enrichment for the KMT and it’s people, no matter how you look at it.
I am afraid I have come to the same conclusion as mr_boogie doesn’t matter how I look at it…
Let me stress though that my view on this topic is entirely based on my life experience ‘growing up’ in Australia, therefore in my case, it really has nothing to do with the TI movement…Don’t forget that I was once so indoctrinated by the KMT government!!! :loco:
I think people are losing sight of Mayor Ma position on the matter and are spouting nonsense at this point.
That reminds me. Recently a news article says the star of the equivalent of the “American Idol” show in mainland China is visiting Taiwan, but apparently she (or any mainland visitor) is not allowed to speak in public, cannot appear on TV or accept public interview or sit on any discussion panel, cannot advertise, cannot perform in public, her name cannot appear anywhere, her face cannot appear in the media, etc., etc. – this was after four months of negotiation with the DPP-run Mainland Affairs Council to let her set foot in Taiwan. On the other hand, the PRC has no such restrictions on Taiwanese.
Also, PRC citizens were not allowed to visit Taiwan without a sponsor and going through a 6-month background check. Then one or two years ago, PRC citizens who were permanent residents of the US could visit Taiwan as tourists. However, they had to report their entire itinerary ahead of time and follow it and an 11PM curfew was imposed on them. The PRC has no such restrictions on Taiwanese.
Then, there was the thing where flights from Taiwan must avoid the entire PRC airspace (this was self-imposed), so going to Europe meant making a big detour. This rule was rescinded last year when fuel prices skyrocketed.
I could care less if the Taiwanese keep up with this BS, if it weren’t for the local belief that under the pseudo-native Taiwanese (BSR), they have become the model of civil society and human rights for the world.
Aren’t there a few mainland actress in the ROC now. The most infamous was that girl who was involve with the comedian suicide last year. Or more accurately blamed for the comedian’s chronic depression.
It is especially sad that some overseas ROC citizens would actually support Taiwan self destructive policies.
Xia Yi (夏祎) married a Taiwanese in the US years ago and they moved back to Taiwan to live, until divorce.
Anyway, to this day, she is treated like a combination of all the negative caricatures of a “mainlander” female and rejected by a Taiwanese media that caters to provincial (and by extension, xenophobic) tastes.
Are you serious? Everyone knows WHY China is making sure the Taiwanese are comfortable over there!!!
We are talking about a country that to this day still points missiles at Taiwan, and threatens invasion and some of you want to know why PRC citizens are being discriminated against in Taiwan??? 
Unbelivable!!!
Yes, it’s known as not being a dick. Taiwan might want to try it sometime once the green clowns finish their cultural revolution.
[quote=“Bellith”]We are talking about a country that to this day still points missiles at Taiwan, and threatens invasion and some of you want to know why PRC citizens are being discriminated against in Taiwan??? 
Unbelivable!!![/quote]
Whatever. It’s not like Taiwan is aiding the TI cause or any cause at all by doing what it does to average-Joe mainlanders. In fact, it is a worthless tactic and self-defeating for Taiwan. It’s the most juvenile form of playground revenge and naturally draws the most juvenile of people to its defense.
:bravo: well put that man… very good…
It looks as if the pro-green Taipei Times is starting to grow impatient with the DPP’s administrative blunders and “taike xenophobia” and could possibly back Ma in 2008.
From today’s editorial.
Taiwanese can be expected to back Ma for the next presidency if he continues with this approach. With Ma at the helm, he way witness a new cycle of Lee style nativization, not on the basis of nationalist slogans and ethnic awareness, but on the basis of “let’s all be friends.”
I think that the position of Taiwan against the PRC chinese is exacerbated and exhagerated. However. let us not forget that it is very hard to look at someone and immideatly know that he or she is a PRC chinese (I don’t call them mainlanders). If you do not forget that ROC and PRC are still at war, and the CCP is very well known for putting agents anywhere and everywhere. But isn’t it also true that if a ROC chinese wants to go to PRC, he or she has to sign a document stating ideological premises? How good is that? Imagine you go to a country and have to sign a document stating things that might be agaisnt your beliefs…
By the way, can you imagine if a Taiwanse star would go to China, and in an interview with the media he/she would say that practices Falun Gong and that that is the source of his/hers spiritual power? What would really happen to him/her? Or if she would say something about the CCP that was against theyr absolute truth?
So don’t take things one sided, both sides are making stupid things all the time.
Uh, where the hell did you hear that crap from? The answer is no. 
As a TBZ holder I enjoy pretty much Perm Res status in the PRC. I come and go as I please. And that includes HK SAR as well. I didn’t know that I could use my TBZ going into HK until I saw a bunch of guys in front of me using it.
But… what exactly is the TBZ?
Is it not a id card stating that you live in the Chinese Province of Taiwan?
And why do you have to have a special id when you are a foreigner?
By the way, again in the matter of the “difficulties” PRC chinese have when coming to Taiwan, how about the “dificulties” they have when going to other countries in the world? Do you think that they can get a Schengen Visitor Visa easily? Do you think that they can get an easy visitor visa for the United States?
The truth is, no one lets PRC chinese go into theyr countries easily. And it is nothing about having issues against them. It is a simple matter of control. The problem in Taiwan is that a PRC chinese can, without much problem, mingle in the population and basically start working here… Do you think that PRC citizens can easily go to HK or Macau? If they could, I believe that most of them had allready gone. And, lets not forget that the biggest inconvenient for any PRC chinese to move, is the CCP itself, specially if you are a peasant.
[quote=“Yellow Cartman”][quote=“mr_boogie”] [snip]
Uh, where the hell did you hear that crap from? The answer is no. 
As a TBZ holder I enjoy pretty much Perm Res status in the PRC. I come and go as I please. And that includes HK SAR as well. I didn’t know that I could use my TBZ going into HK until I saw a bunch of guys in front of me using it.[/quote][/quote]
At least until a couple years ago, you could use your TBZ to transit through Hong Kong to China within (i believe) 48 hours, but you could not stay in HK for whatever the normal stay is for passport holders from first world countries.
Unless the process of dissolving the province of Taiwan in ROC is completed, the statement is not entirely false either.
But then agian we are splitting hairs at this point.
To assuage your fears, the TBZ doesn’t mean the individual is a full PRC citizen either, nor does it mean the individual doesn’t acknowledge the existance of the ROC.
Uhm, its not that hard either. Much easier than trying to get an ROC visa, even after 9/11.
I was refering to the Province of Taiwan of the Popular Republic of China…
Ok, back to the principal…
What would the KMT and Ma win if there would be a reunification? That is what the point is…
[quote=“mr_boogie”]
What would the KMT and Ma win if there would be a reunification? That is what the point is…[/quote]
To not be shit poor like the Republic of the Philippines. That’s what. Support the DPP and it’ll be another Philippines one day and being someone’s nanny provider… namely to the PRC.
Ok, a bit of hyperbole … but the DPP slide is the wrong direction for sure. As I’ve always stated KMT was for economic development but who knows what’ll be left for them to develop come 2008.
Is the economy in Taiwan that bad?
Is the unemployment very low?
Even if China has a double digit growth, they are still very far away from where Taiwan is. The growth in Taiwan has been hampered, like in many other 1st world countries, by the world economy: “slower world growth in 2005, higher energy prices and interest rates, and excess inventory could drag 2005 growth to under 4%.” (from state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/35855.htm".