Ma Ying-jeou indicted, resigns, announces presidential bid

Politics Taiwan Politics
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But that’s not the point; he just needs to be “cleaner” than whatever the DPP puts up as a candidate.[/quote]

If I were part of the Pan-Blue, I’d be mobilizing my people to ring every bell at every district prosecutors’ office on the island and go after anyone who was entitled to such an account. No one, not even highly regarded people in high office, should escape scrutiny. That ought to cut-down a few current office holders/potential presidential frontrunners down in size. (Edit: It seems like several requests have already been made targeting Vice President Annette Lu and the head of the Judicial Yuan a few montsh ago).

I’m afraid those events took place in a bygone era. As long as the KMT was still in power, Ma could’ve used his personal connections to keep him politically viable. It probably dawned on him a few days ago that he’ll be fighting the fight of his life soon, and this is his chance.

It’s another opportunity for Ma to unify the party behind him. However, as another poster noted, his opponents might use this chance to sweep him from power for good if they don’t change a few house rules (Edit: which also puts Ma in a bind, because “corrupt” members are not eligible to run for office)

Ma could still prevail if he plays by the rules and becomes a model of accountability–that is, assuming he’s found not guilty or doesn’t have to run his campaign from jail.

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If you must break it down, it’s the equivalent of stealing NT$116,354 every month for eight years. You must make a hell of a lot more money than I do, because in my humble opinion that’s no pittance of a perk. It also begs the question – what’s your threshold for corruption? I mean what does the amount have to be before an indictment is in order? 12 million, maybe? 13.5? 20? 100? Just curious. In the meantime, since it isn’t much, can I borrow 11 million, or better yet help you make it “disappear”?

But if it costs, say, less than NT$11,170,000 it’s just a drop in the bucket, right? And if it takes less than 8 years well hell, that’s no time at all. I’m not saying you have a double standard, but well, actually yes I am.

As far as I know he never made that claim. He said, “I have all the receipts.” Then he changed his mind and said, “I don’t have any receipts, but I don’t need them - it’s my salary.”[/quote]

You have the indignant thing going on strong here, but let’s look a little deeper:

  1. Who was the mayor before him? Chen
  2. Who was the assistant to the mayor before him? Same guy who did this for/to Ma
  3. Did Ma continue a practice that has always been in existence for Taipei mayors?
  4. How has Ma reacted to the situation, denial, blaming others, or quickly taking responsibility?
  5. What was the actual money used for?
    5a. Was it used for his private life, investments, family etc. Or was it used for all manner of official expences…hong baos, functions, etc?
  6. In reality, where would you-yourself, place Ma in the hierachy of Taiwanese politicians, by corruption?

Knowing his friends, and having met him and members of his family, having watched his conduct from my unbiased [Green/Blue] viewpoint, I give him a lot of leeway on this issue. Fortunately, and unfortunately, few people are perfect. But, let’s admire him for working extremely hard to hold true to an ideal, and let’s sympathise with him over this sad issue, and realise how much it must hurt him inside.

However, I will say this as well: The best mayor was the one before Chen, the man who had the foresight to start many of the construction projects, yet didn’t have the political skill to prevent Chen coming to office…

[quote=“die_scheibe”]If I were part of the Pan-Blue, I’d be mobilizing my people to ring every bell at every district prosecutors’ office on the island and go after anyone who was entitled to such an account. No one, not even highly regarded people in high office, should escape scrutiny. That ought to cut-down a few current office holders/potential presidential frontrunners down in size.
[/quote]

I agree that this should be done, but for me the reasoning is that it would be another step in the right direction for Taiwan, away from corruption. However, if the DPP-who went into power being vehement against ‘black-gold’, could end up being so corrupted and money thieving, I truly believe that in reality corruption will never disappear, and it will stay almost endemic.

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[quote=“slurpcheese”]

As far as I know he never made that claim. He said, “I have all the receipts.” Then he changed his mind and said, “I don’t have any receipts, but I don’t need them - it’s my salary.”

Come on, man. You’re just sad to see golden boy take a golden shower.[/quote]

Nope, I was more trying to say that at least he didn’t make as many stupid excuses as our dear President did…top-secret state affairs, and all that. Sigh. I think we should go back to the good old days when becoming a leader still meant you had a bit of power, and people generally stayed out of your business, that is, until somebody killed you to take your throne. And thanks for the mental image there at the end…wish I could find a video of that blessed event somewhere on YouTube!

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dg

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[quote=“Monkey D. Luffy”]You have the indignant thing going on strong here, but let’s look a little deeper:

  1. Who was the mayor before him? Chen
  2. Who was the assistant to the mayor before him? Same guy who did this for/to Ma…[/quote]
    Deeper, eh? How about this analysis:
  3. Who got indicted today for corruption? Ma Ying-jeou.
  4. Who’s going to try to rationalize it and explain it away? A few diehard blowhards.
  5. Who got indicted today for corruption? Ma Ying-jeou.
    And please don’t get me wrong. I’m not in the least indignant.

Yuh-huh. That’s the ticket. I bow my head, Father Luffy. :noway:
Actually, I do realize how much it must have hurt his wrist, signing all that money into his accounts.

I see you forgot his name. Don’t feel bad, most people have. He was eminnently forgettable. It was Huang Da-zhou.

Yeah, I hear ya. But a stupid mistake it was all the same, and the days of killing the king are long over. At least the KMT missed the last time anyway. :wink:

And thanks for the mental image there at the end…wish I could find a video of that blessed event somewhere on YouTube![/quote]
Cheers - I’d be willing to spring for pay-per-view for the both of us. :smiley:

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To the critics of Ma who accuse him of corruption, embezzlement, switching positions or just being plain inept and unimpressive, I say…

“You don’t understand what these terms mean. You’re not very much familiar with Chinese affairs and Taiwanese affairs.”

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Folks folks folks…you are all overlooking a key element in this…
The guy is a professional politician!
This is what they do - They lie, cheat and steal. Then they deny it. When presented with the evidence they have an entourage of other professionals spinn it into the ground.
AND…and…he’s a Taiwanese politician. This is SOP for the bunch of them.

Ma is going to come out of this shining clean and with a public image stronger and better than ever. And CSB is setting at home grinning like a fool at the heat being off him while this unfolds.

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[quote=“fruitloop”]To the critics of Ma who accuse him of corruption, embezzlement, switching positions or just being plain inept and unimpressive, I say…

“You don’t understand what these terms mean. You’re not very much familiar with Chinese affairs and Taiwanese affairs.”[/quote]
If that was posted tongue-in-cheek, my apologies for the following comments:

What kind of a stupid statement is that?

Most of us don’t really give a flying frack what “corruption” and “embezzlement” mean to Taiwanese. We all pretty much know that they don’t have a clue what integrity is as far as it applies to law. Of course there are plenty of Taiwanese people who have integrity, but the ones who have either non-existent or cavalier concepts of corruption are what you seem to mean as “Taiwanese”

We actually know what it means to them, too, but we find that idea on par with “honor among thieves”. If the best defence available is “it ain’t really bad if you look at it from a corrupt social viewpoint that’s prevalent here”, then there is no defence.

The thing is, he hasn’t been proven guilty. That’s the real defence that he has. If he’s innocent, then it’s sad that his reputation was tarnished. If he’s found guilty then he should have no place in government and those who would still support him don’t have the good of Taiwan at heart.

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Well I guess that many Taiwanese don’t have Taiwan at heart, many are just here for the money and as is proven so many times they jump ship and move to greener pastures …

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Irony bypass?

Sorry if my reference was too obscure. It’s the kind of stupid statement issued from Ma’s own lips when he couldn’t think of how to resolve all his inconsistencies on a sovereignty and independence when challenged for the first time by a non-sycophantic interviewer. BBC Hardtalk interview last February.

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Hahahahahahahaha. Golden boy eats it, hard. The weak but arrogant Ma never imagined that it would come back to him. I admit it, I’m lovin; it. In fact, I can’t prove it, but my guess is that the whole prosecution of Chen Shui-bian was simply the first step in what was actually a “Get Ma” campaign.

[quote]Maybe he’ll share the same room as Madame Wu at the hospital when fainting spells occur every time he’s suppose to appear in court. Laughing out loud…

Green prosecutors are usually overzealous. Like the Fung case, it’ll drag on for a while. But not long enough to count him out of the running in '08.[/quote]

I guess the great thing about being pro-China is never having to do any fact checking. The prosecutor is a pro-Blue schmuck who asked that the prosecutorial apparatus go lightly on Ma, since he didn’t know what he was doing (see today’s Taiwan News report). Ma and Prosecutor Hou are in fact good friends; Ma was a witness at his wedding – pan-Blue ethics at its finest; the prosecutor didn’t recuse himself. That’s the problem with you guys on the anti-democracy side – if the KMT wasn’t so incompetent, arrogant, and corrupt, the DPP would be a minor party in Pingtung whose members would be amusing themselves stabbing each other in the back.

So at the moment, the pan-Blues are offering us Ma “Mr. Monthly” Ying-jeou, Wang “the Bagman” Jin-pyng, James “US$400 million” Soong, and Lien “Chairman for Life” Chan as possible candidates for the Presidency in 2008. There’s a whole year, and the DPP could well crash and burn, but I think I’ll live for today…

Vorkosigan

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I haven’t been this happy about Taiwan politics in a long long time.

Eat shit, Ma.

:upyours: :banana: :upyours: :banana: :upyours: :banana: :bouncy: :bouncy: :bouncy: :bouncy: :bouncy:

Oh and to be fair, for CSB, this:
:upyours: :upyours: :upyours: :upyours: :upyours:

Tomorrow: Oh how the worms will squirm. :bravo:

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[quote=“jdsmith”]I haven’t been this happy about Taiwan politics in a long long time.

Eat shit, Ma.

:upyours: :banana: :upyours: :banana: :upyours: :banana: :bouncy: :bouncy: :bouncy: :bouncy: :bouncy:

Oh and to be fair, for CSB, this:
:upyours: :upyours: :upyours: :upyours: :upyours:

Tomorrow: Oh how the worms will squirm. :bravo:[/quote]

What a great soap opera. I eagerly await the next episode, lol

54

THAT, my good sir is a suspicion I also share. For all the talk of Ma’s enemies, it’s worth remembering that the biggest one has always been none other than Lien “It’s my party and I’ll lie if I want to” Chan. Lien has forever been trying to find a way to lock Ma in the stables - or at the very least sweep him under the Wang Jin-pyng rug, i.e. swap him to vice presidential candidate like Lien did to Soong. Lien, after all, knows just how useless a Taiwan veep is.

Interestingly, Ma says he “informed” Lien that he was going to announce the presidential bid today. I wonder how that was received. With smiles then backroom tantrums, perhaps? The Old Boyz Klub did change the rule about indictments barring presidential nominations, but still, it’ll be interesting to see how this plays out in the coming weeks.

Meantime, I just poured myself a highball of Couvoissier. Really.

55

and now, for something completelly different:

Do you guys think that the prosecutors would indict him unless they had some extremelly irrefutable evidence (well… speaking of evidence, just looking at what Ma said is enough) that they would convict him?

Prosecutor: Did you pocketed the money?
Ma: Yes, but I paid taxes on it
Prosecutor: So if someone steals your bank account, and put it into his tax report as special allowance, would that be also considered as legit income?
Ma: Yes, but I didn’t steal… I just considered it wrongly.
Prosecutor: But, Mr Ma, you with your Harvard degree should know that ignorance doesn’t constitute innocence. It may, however, constitute incompettence.
Ma: Yes, I know, but let us not forget that I have, in my pocket, a memmorandum of an agreement with the CCP that will allow all the ROC officials to hold office for the next 50 years - incluiding your own.
Prosecutor: Oh, (…) ok, let me rephrase the sentance - Mr Ma, you paid your taxes all these years on these extras that shouldn’t be accounted for, so we should be here fighting against the Tax Office for your rightfull demands on getting those millions you paid too much.
Judge: Agree - Mr. Prosecutor, we will check this last piece of evidence in my room. I hereby find mr. Ma not guillty as charged. This court is dismissed.
Audience: 80% of the journalists start clapping their hands and rising their voice for support for Ma, the others are doing their job calling for the newspapers, radios and tv’s.

End of the story: we all know how this is going to end, we are just hoping it won’t end like it will…

56

He’s still running, eh? I would have thought he’d resign, and the Lien Chan would be re-elected KMT chair to try to put together a Wang/Ma ticket.

57

How does this affect international relations? With Japan, Korea, and the US? Anyone have any ideas or links for me to read? Thanks

58

Long Ying-tai, the female version of MYJ (politically + intellectually and many think romantically), hinted this would be happening a few days ago.

She was, I believe, minister of culture for the city of Taipei. And she wrote in a widely published column that this was indeed standard operating procedure, that from her first day on the job, her city-appointed accountant insisted that these additional funds were part of her personal income.

She didn’t offer it as an excuse. She just warned that every single individual who has served in Taiwanese government in the past 20 years (appointed by Lee Tung-Hui, Chen Shui-bian, or MYJ) are similarly guilty, and will all be open for indictment. This goes beyond “culture” of deceit; this was simply SOP, and “everyone” thought it was legal behavior.

We’ll see where it goes, and just how Ma plays the political game. IMO, Ma remains the overwhelming leader for the 2008 Presidency.

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So that means CSB will face indictment once he leave office, one for the presidential slush fund and one for the mayoral slush fund…. :laughing:

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The only difference is Chen Shui Bian takes his slush funds in cash with no paper trail. All corrupt politicians know this.