Fatherhood has not softened him.
HG
This discussion has basically split into:
A. Its understandable/OK to push / shove and mistreat a foreign diplomat because he is from China / a country we don’t like
B. Violence is never OK
Before you pick A, would your own government ever do something stupid like cozy up really snugly to the Chinese government? So next time you get into a taxi , you need to hide that you are from {country} ?[/quote]
wake the fuc k up man…he’s not a foreign diplomat…he is someone who openly espouses the use of force (ie a shitload of missiles) to prevent taiwan asserting its independence…it’s not a country we don’t like, it’s a country that threatens the very right to exist of Taiwan…if someone came into your house and told you it now belongs to him, damn right you might get a bit physical…
This discussion has basically split into:
A. Its understandable/OK to push / shove and mistreat a foreign diplomat because he is from China / a country we don’t like
B. Violence is never OK
Before you pick A, would your own government ever do something stupid like cozy up really snugly to the Chinese government? So next time you get into a taxi , you need to hide that you are from {country} ?[/quote]
wake the fuc k up man…he’s not a foreign diplomat…he is someone who openly espouses the use of force (ie a shitload of missiles) to prevent taiwan asserting its independence…it’s not a country we don’t like, it’s a country that threatens the very right to exist of Taiwan…if someone came into your house and told you it now belongs to him, damn right you might get a bit physical…[/quote]
Yes, if only all international exchanges were conducted like ghetto brawls by both sides, then…ONLY THEN, I say, will we have peace.
Fatherhood has not softened him.
HG[/quote]
I’d say fatherhood has made him realize that he has a stake in this place. 
despite people saying they abhor violence and that violence is terrible it’s perhaps worth remembering that violence often works. :discodance:
lovely peaceful Nelson Mandela was a ‘terrorist’ before his arrest as were all the ‘independece’ fighters of the US. The IRA’s terrorist campaign worked as (generally) did those carried out in Vietnam. Even Gandhi advocated violence for those who didn’t properly understand ‘non-violence’.
Violence is effective and it works. Taiwan should avoid sleep walking into reunification. If people don’t want it, why should they have it forced upon them? Why should they be cordial to people who threaten to bomb them (and us bear in mind). Violence isn’t always the answer but I wouldn’t write it off just yet.
This guy is a CCP lackey, but if the Taiwan government invited him here it should have made sure he was protected by dudes in black suits with earphones. People should be able to yell at him all they like but they shouldn’t be able to get close enough to push him. Just imagine what would have happened if one of the protestors had knifed or shot him. Then we’d have Beijing threatening to ‘restore order in Taiwan province’ or demanding the killers be handed over or something. And their angry youths on the internet would be screaming for a full on invasion.
Still, I can’t help but think that this does send a message to Beijing - invading Chinese troops may be able to defeat the Taiwanese army, but then they would face angry mobs, not a cowed populace. As an English friend of mine put it, the football hooligan types who start punch ups on a Saturday night are probably the same demographic that saved England in WWII. If we were all civilised like the French or Scandinavians, we’d have been invaded or Finlandized. So from game theory perspective perhaps it’s no bad thing. Like demonstrating a weapons system, a low tech distributed one that will chew up foreign armour if it strays into Taiwanese cities. Maybe it’s a way for Taiwan to tell China that there is no ‘angry youth’ gap.
Actually, I was not very keen on this guy’s visit until I saw him on TV yesterday. He said all the right stuff, in a very conciliatory manner -and the crying was not too theatrical.
I do think we are being fed a smoke and mirrors scheme, but I would not blame the Other Side for it. I believe this time, this mess is all locally made.
Call me a prude, but the Central American Wars taught me that violence leads to a blind alley, where you get trapped, and once you are there, you can be manipulated and the original “good” reasons for the violence become corrupted. There must be a better way than to get caught in the spiral.
Blue violence, green violence, red violence… all a waste. And yes, my first thought was, that if someone can get close enough to push him, they can get close enough to kill him. Not good. The shame of a violent act is not justifiable, and smears the whole country -which, by the way, already has very bad rep overseas. Us, not “them commies”.
Actually I was wondering about the absence of police and its effects on the event. Lots of protests involve shouting, emotive events, etc, but usually the object of the ire is safely behind a police line, so everything happens at the symbolic level, except to the poor policemen. But in the Zhang incident the police were absent so protesters and target were abruptly brought into a confrontation that neither knew how to handle.
…which I guess is why -for starters- the Tainan police chief got the boot.
One of my colleagues was speculating whether the press had a “hand” in this, in terms of “there is this guy standing way too close with the micrphone, harrassing camerapeople, melee…”
The press is always there “to spice things up”.
My first thought when I saw the pictures on the news was: “Good God, where’s the security, where are the police?” Considering how high profile, significant and sensitive his visit was, it’s astonishing that no proper arrangements were made for his protection.
As i said earlier. It’s such an obviously contrived incident, but I wouldn’t quickly put it down to complete locals – the CCP and the KMT were complicit in this one, dollars to doughnuts. Those DPP hicks were just the rubes being used as pawns, as both sides KNEW would happen. Result.
And now for the cherry on top:
[quote]The violent incident in which demonstrators jostled a visiting Chinese
liaison official to the ground will surely tarnish Taiwan’s international image and deal a blow to its tourism development, a ranking Ministry of Transportation and Communications (MOTC) official predicted yesterday.
Oliver Yu, vice minister of the MOTC, said the violence will also have an unavoidably adverse impact on the progress of cross-strait negotiations on expanded air transport exchanges and the opening of shipping links.
…
Yu said that apart from touting the attractions of its natural scenery, good social customs and local culture, the country must strive to ensure the personal safety and security of visitors, in its tourism promotion efforts.
[/quote]
http://www.chinapost.com.tw/taiwan/t-business/2008/10/23/179946/Violent-mishap.htm
In Spanish, we call this: confundir la gimnasia con la magnesia, meaning relating two completely separate items.
Or as you guys say, there is something fishy in Denmark…
imdb.com/title/tt0120201/quotes
[quote=“Starship Troopers”]Dizzy: My mother always told me that violence doesn’t solve anything.
Jean Rasczak: Really? I wonder what the city founders of Hiroshima would have to say about that.
[to Carmen]
Jean Rasczak: You.
Carmen: They wouldn’t say anything. Hiroshima was destroyed.
Jean Rasczak: Correct. Violence has resolved more conflicts than anything else. The contrary opinion that violence doesn’t solve anything is merely wishful thinking at its worst.[/quote]
Heinlpwned.
Police and security incompetence definitely contributed to this incident. Zhang didn’t help things by deciding to make an unscheduled stop at the Confucian Temple without alerting his security detail that was in the car behind him (more incompetence, in this layperson’s view). And the a local politician (AKA grandstanding moron) decides to make a scene (how were those TV cameras so conveniently on the spot?) during which Zhang trips because he freaked out when confronted by a posse of angry citizens. After all, in China, when ordinary people get pissed off they burn things and kill officials.
Would it be good judgment for Gerry Adams to be wandering around somewhere in England without his security detail? Might something happen? Sure. He’d probably be lucky to get off with falling down. The problem in my view is that the greens have the moral high ground, but they allow it to be taken away when incidents like this get shown all over the world. Nor does it help in Taiwan where of course the pan-blue media is eager to blow up a non-incident like this into “more green violence by betel nut chewing thugs.”
The case for Taiwanese independence is very strong on rational grounds and violence, or even pseudo-violence as in this case, is no needed to create strong emotional appeals.
My first thought when I saw the pictures on the news was: “Good God, where’s the security, where are the police?” Considering how high profile, significant and sensitive his visit was, it’s astonishing that no proper arrangements were made for his protection.[/quote]
I think Zhang himself is to blame for this. After the initial protests at the university on the first day, Zhang decided to keep a low profile and asked the university not to publicize his itinerary, not to have such a large entourage around him and allow him to just go off to visit the historic sites on his own and sort of blend in. The university concurred, but somehow the greens got hold of his whereabouts.
[quote] during which Zhang trips because he freaked out when confronted by a posse of angry citizens [/quote] I dont think that is a fact Feiren, even vorkosigan on his blog concedes [quote] It is arguable whether he was pushed [/quote] I dont think theres much doubt, in fact it looks clear he is pushed.
From Uroducas link tw.youtube.com/watch?v=7QYGS8JUQc4 at 1:07
The guy is pushed from the second guy to the left, a couple of frames before this he his facing pretty much forward, then gets the shove, which you see the hand in the picture above and CCP nitwit’s body twist round under the force, next shot, bumps into the guy on the right of him (our right), then looses his balance. If you want, start it form 1:06 and fast start stop to advance a few frames each time, by 1:08 its all over.
My first thought when I saw the pictures on the news was: “Good God, where’s the security, where are the police?” Considering how high profile, significant and sensitive his visit was, it’s astonishing that no proper arrangements were made for his protection.[/quote]
I think Zhang himself is to blame for this. After the initial protests at the university on the first day, Zhang decided to keep a low profile and asked the university not to publicize his itinerary, not to have such a large entourage around him and allow him to just go off to visit the historic sites on his own and sort of blend in. The university concurred, but somehow the greens got hold of his whereabouts.[/quote]
He’s going to see the historic/tourist sights of Tainan? Gee whiz. . . wonder where he’s goin’? 
Someone musta tipped off those greens.
I’ve watched the video a number of times. I don’t think he was pushed. I note that the China Times is reporting that he ‘fell’ and that in his public statements since the incident Zhang has not alleged that he was pushed. I would agree that in the US he would probably have a good case for assault (apprehension of imminent harmful or offensive contact) and that the protesters were in his face.
In my view, it doesn’t matter that much. Whether he was pushed or not, the whole incident reflects poorly on the pro-Taiwan movement and will allow bigots in the blue camp to smear the cause of freedom and democracy in Taiwan. Nice work guys.
You heard it here first. Zhang was set up as the fall guy by the KMT and the CPP. Take him down south in order to foment a fracas. Result. The main man comes over next. Massive security. Doesn’t need to see any of the rabble at all. Lovely. Missives signed. Banquets attended. MOUs up the jacksie.
Well done, the DPP. You’ve totally fucked up. AGAIN. Ha fucking ha. Goddamned straw-chewing hayseeds. Way to play into the hands of the opposition.
Total. Fucking. Twats. 
I’m increasingly convinced that Sandman’s is the only reasonable explanation.