Hmm…
[quote=“M. Jagger & K. Richards in Jigsaw Puzzle”]
Oh, there’s twenty-thousand grandmas
Wave their hankies in the air
All burning up their pensions
And shouting, “It’s not fair!”
There’s a regiment of soldiers
Standing looking on
And the queen is bravely shouting,
“What the hell is going on?”
With a blood-curdling “tally-ho”
She charged into the ranks
And blessed all those grandmas who
With their dying breaths screamed, “Thanks!”[/quote][/quote]
I stand corrected. :bravo:
Anyway, shouldn’t he have been arrested cause he is a commie? I thought that was the law over here…
Or maybe the KMT already changed it so they can have all their commie friends coming over for dinner… This is another law that Chen put when he was the dictator of the banana republic…
Hmm…
[quote=“M. Jagger & K. Richards in Jigsaw Puzzle”]
Oh, there’s twenty-thousand grandmas
Wave their hankies in the air
All burning up their pensions
And shouting, “It’s not fair!”
There’s a regiment of soldiers
Standing looking on
And the queen is bravely shouting,
“What the hell is going on?”
With a blood-curdling “tally-ho”
She charged into the ranks
And blessed all those grandmas who
With their dying breaths screamed, “Thanks!”[/quote][/quote]
Now, that’s a Wicked Song!
I thought you were objecting to the entire scope of the protest. Apologies.
I dislike hypocrisy, too, and am glad it’s something I cannot possibly be accused of here, since I unequivocally condemned the mobs of murdering Tibetans and those morons attacking the torch-bearers in even stronger terms than I condemned the less violent but nonetheless still disgraceful behaviour of that loutish rabble in Tainan.
Violence, of no matter what degree, can never be condoned except when being used necessarily in self-defense.[/quote]
I was not including you in the list, nor would I accuse you of hypocrisy. I merely object to your characterization of this mobbing as something that puts Taiwan into great disrepute, as one, it was a small number who were involved (whereas many more protested peacefully at the uni), no one pushed Zhang to the ground (in fact the mob was quick to pick him up), and finally, in an era of food poisonings and massive incompetence if not criminality in the financial world, this is awfully small potatoes. More of a shake the head response, I would think, than anything stronger.
Yet it was reported quite prominently by both the BBC and CNN. They don’t normally pay much attention to Taiwan, and seldom consider us worth a mention even when we’re battered by a deadly typhoon, but they do tend to pick up on stuff like this and fights in the legislature and the Chen family corruption and other sordid little matters that collectively paint Taiwan in a negative light. Unfortunately, there have been all too many of these kinds of stories coming out of Taiwan in the recent past.
But yes, maybe I did somewhat exaggerate its effect. I agree that it pales into insignificance beside the many great woes afflicting our present-day world, so many of which have emanated from the atrocious misdeeds and misgovernance of the current US administration.
Well, yes, but it is important to drop the ethnocentric focus on what westerners think – after all, swaying western opinion with gentleness has been sooooo effective in establishing the Republic of Tibet – and start imagining how, in China where decisions are made – not on the net where the loons will whip themselves into a masturbatory frenzy over this – this might be perceived.
That’s a message to China: there are people by the score who will resist, and will continue to resist, and will commit violence to prevent China from annexing the island. The “revolt every three years, rebellion every five” mentality is still alive here. Remember that China’s real problem is not taking Taiwan but administering it afterwards. Thus Ma’s real role isn’t to deliver up the island, but to deliver it up in such a way that the Taiwanese propensity to commit violent rebellion against their overlords has been defanged. Taiwanese need to keep sending this message – we’re not going to go gently into that good night – again and again and again.
So yesterday the envoy of a nation that has threatened to murder Taiwanese by the thousand to annex their island and snuff out their independence was tripped in the middle of a chaotic protest scene. Really, I think the Taiwanese reaction was rather restrained.
Vorkosigan
This is a perfect opportunity for the DPP to set themselves apart and not tolerate any violent situations caused, in part if not wholly, by their members. Kicking Wang out of the party will go a long way to clawing back some of the voters who were driven away by the Chen family.
Violence is never the answer.
[quote=“Vorkosigan”]That’s a message to China: there are people by the score who will resist, and will continue to resist, and will commit violence to prevent China from annexing the island. The “revolt every three years, rebellion every five” mentality is still alive here. Remember that China’s real problem is not taking Taiwan but administering it afterwards. Thus Ma’s real role isn’t to deliver up the island, but to deliver it up in such a way that the Taiwanese propensity to commit violent rebellion against their overlords has been defanged. Taiwanese need to keep sending this message – we’re not going to go gently into that good night – again and again and again.
So yesterday the envoy of a nation that has threatened to murder Taiwanese by the thousand to annex their island and snuff out their independence was tripped in the middle of a chaotic protest scene. Really, I think the Taiwanese reaction was rather restrained.[/quote]
So you condone this behaviour? Even welcoming it?
I wonder what would happen if a pro-independence Taiwanese official gave a speech at a temple somewhere on the mainland telling China to keep its hands off of Taiwan, that Taiwan was an independent nation deserving of entry into the U.N.?
Somehow I think such an official would suffer a wee bit more than a little bit of pushing and shoving.
But of course such a scenario is impossible as the PRC would never allow such a speech to take place, or such an official to even enter the country.
[quote=“sjcma”]
So you condone this behaviour? Even welcoming it?[/quote]
Condone what behavior? What exactly do you think happened?
I understand why it occurred. I can see where it might be useful. If a gangster who has personally threatened you repeatedly – see the editorial page of the Taipei Times today – comes to your house, how should you treat him? And if you treat him badly, what moral wrong have you committed? Be clear sjcma – what do you owe people who threaten to kill you? How should they be treated?
As the Taipei Times pointed out today, thousands of ordinary Chinese have visited Taiwan, entirely without incident.
Frankly, nothing out of the ordinary happened here. Ever been to a protest in Taiwan? Pushing and shoving is not unusual. Neither is shouting nor people excitedly approaching officials. That’s par for the course. This is only interesting because it is a PRC official. Had it been a Taiwanese official it might have been reported only in the southern Taiwan editions of the news.
Michael
[quote=“Vorkosigan”]Condone what behavior? What exactly do you think happened?[/quote] That Zhang was knocked to the ground accidentally while being harrassed by a small mob. Afterwards, a protestor willfully destroyed property by jumping on top of the car carrying Zhang.
[quote=“Vorkosigan”]I understand why it occurred.[/quote]So can I.
[quote=“Vorkosigan”]I can see where it might be useful.[/quote]So can I.
[quote=“Vorkosigan”]If a gangster who has personally threatened you repeatedly – see the editorial page of the Taipei Times today – comes to your house, how should you treat him? And if you treat him badly, what moral wrong have you committed? Be clear sjcma – what do you owe people who threaten to kill you? How should they be treated?[/quote]There’s treating him badly, such as in your face protesting, and then there’s crossing the legal line into destroying property.
[quote=“Vorkosigan”]As the Taipei Times pointed out today, thousands of ordinary Chinese have visited Taiwan, entirely without incident.[/quote]Yes, that’s true.
[quote=“Vorkosigan”]Frankly, nothing out of the ordinary happened here.[/quote]Certainly nothing in the context of Taiwanese protests.
[quote=“Vorkosigan”]Ever been to a protest in Taiwan?[/quote]Yes.
[quote=“Vorkosigan”]Pushing and shoving is not unusual. Neither is shouting nor people excitedly approaching officials. That’s par for the course.[/quote]Sure, and neither is throwing eggs and watermelons, rushing and pulling down security fences, ramming things with blue trucks, etc. All “normal” Taiwanese protest activities, but nothing I would condone once it passes the line of legality or became violent.
[quote=“Vorkosigan”]This is only interesting because it is a PRC official.[/quote]Stating the obvious here.
[quote=“Vorkosigan”]Had it been a Taiwanese official it might have been reported only in the southern Taiwan editions of the news.[/quote]I have a feeling if someone jumped on top of the official’s car’s rooftop repeatedly in angry protest, it’d probably make the national news.
The jumping on top of a car, the physical pushing and shoving. Those were and are wrong in any context here.
[quote=“Quentin”]I wonder what would happen if a pro-independence Taiwanese official gave a speech at a temple somewhere on the mainland telling China to keep its hands off of Taiwan, that Taiwan was an independent nation deserving of entry into the U.N.?
Somehow I think such an official would suffer a wee bit more than a little bit of pushing and shoving.
But of course such a scenario is impossible as the PRC would never allow such a speech to take place, or such an official to even enter the country.[/quote]
Glad someone finally asked this question. It doesn’t even take the visiting offending person to arrive in China proper for violence to occur. Example would be the not so long ago riots against the Japanese…things would have been worse for the French were it not for the Olympics.
People here in China believe that Taiwan comes back into the fold even if it means killing every single Taiwanese.
While I don’t condone it, I have zero sympathy for the prick.
This whole thing is only about one thing: a local politician - DPP Tainan City councillor Wang Ting-yu - grandstanding and willing to do anything to further his political career, including having old people knocked to the ground.
He’s the worst type of rabblerouser, setting people up against each other to win votes.
If Obama ever does anything that those ‘love Taiwan’ types don’t like, be sure he’ll be the first one to go after ‘Americans.’ And you know who those are, everyone from Norway to South Africa and from Alaska to Chile.
Tsai Ing-wen is looking more and more like Ma Ying-jeou: a ‘nice’ person unable and unwilling to control the rabble further down the chain.
[quote=“Quentin”]I wonder what would happen if a pro-independence Taiwanese official gave a speech at a temple somewhere on the mainland telling China to keep its hands off of Taiwan, that Taiwan was an independent nation deserving of entry into the U.N.?
Somehow I think such an official would suffer a wee bit more than a little bit of pushing and shoving.
But of course such a scenario is impossible as the PRC would never allow such a speech to take place, or such an official to even enter the country.[/quote]
Glad to hear we’re able to hold ourselves to China’s lofty standards. 
[quote=“Poagao”][quote=“Quentin”]I wonder what would happen if a pro-independence Taiwanese official gave a speech at a temple somewhere on the mainland telling China to keep its hands off of Taiwan, that Taiwan was an independent nation deserving of entry into the U.N.?
Somehow I think such an official would suffer a wee bit more than a little bit of pushing and shoving.
But of course such a scenario is impossible as the PRC would never allow such a speech to take place, or such an official to even enter the country.[/quote]
Glad to hear we’re able to hold ourselves to China’s lofty standards. [/quote]
Well, that is who considers themselves our new managers.
This discussion has basically split into:
A. Its understandable/OK to push / shove and mistreat a foreign diplomat because he is from China / a country we don’t like
B. Violence is never OK
Before you pick A, would your own government ever do something stupid like cozy up really snugly to the Chinese government? So next time you get into a taxi , you need to hide that you are from {country} ?
This discussion has basically split into:
A. Its understandable/OK to push / shove and mistreat a foreign diplomat because he is from China / a country we don’t like
B. Violence is never OK
[/quote]
No, it seems to have split into:
A. You should be polite to a cocksucking thug who has threatened to kill you and your entire family.
B. Dirty bullying commie fuckers deserve far more than they get.
I saw a man bounding on a car. I don’t know which side he was on. Gangsters instigating such acts to make the Green team look bad is quite common. I’m suspending judgment on that until I know more about the perp.
But I agree, destroying the car is bad.
Ok…no problem here.
That’s the whole point. What’s “violent?” Clearly bouncing on the car is illegal. Clearly accosting the PRC official is not.
Yes, well sometimes the obvious gets lost in the shuffle.
LOL. Nowadays, that’s probably true.
Vorkosigan