Re-Hokwongwei, Nah, it’s completely on topic, I totally agree, Beijing’s pronunciation doesn’t sound great at all, which is why I state my point. Maybe I should of specified what I meant when I said “Mainland standard Mandarin”, I meant Beijing’s Mandarin, as it’s considered 最標準的普通話. It’s ironic really, it’s supposed to be the most standard form of Mandarin Chinese but yet it’s actually one of the more difficult accents to understand when compared to most Mainland accents, haha. When I started studying there it was so difficult because I was used to hearing Taiwanese Mandarin from my dad and even when I visited him when he lived in Mainland China, he lived in Guangdong and Fujian so their accents were very similar. So it took me a good 6-10 months to adapt and understand it, whereas lots of my friends found it easy to understand when they went from Beijing to other provinces or Taiwan.
Most people will tell you that standard Putonghua is actually what’s spoken in Dongbei, around Jilin/Changchun and even in Heilongjiang. That’s why CCTV newscasters are easy to understand but Beijing cabbies are completely incomprehensible.
Re-Hokwongwei, You do have a point about standard Mandarin speakers, but you’re using two extremes to describe the two areas though aren’t you. Using CCTV broadcasters as an example for Dongbei and using cabbies as an example for Beijing. I have numerous friends who have passed CCTV’s Chinese spoken tests (required to be a broadcaster) and they vary, some are from Dongbei and others are from places such as Hunan and Henan, so I don’t think that has anything to do with the area’s overall Mandarin, those are individual people. In actual fact people have told me that actually Beijing’s surrounding areas like Hebei are actually the places where true standard Mandarin is spoken but in terms of a place being most recognised as the area which teaches correct standard Mandarin in Mainland China, then that is Beijing.
You’re right, it’s unfair to use cabbies, but my point stands. Compare the average person on the street in Beijing and the average person on the street in Changchun and the difference is immense. There’s a reason there is a term for 北京話 and not one for 吉林話 – the latter is the national standard, while the former is a dialect. At least that’s what all my teachers (including one from Harbin) told me through high school and college. But then again, I guess everyone is inclined to say their version is the right one.
I still hold however that Beijinghua is not equal to Putonghua.
[quote=“Hokwongwei”]You’re right, it’s unfair to use cabbies, but my point stands. Compare the average person on the street in Beijing and the average person on the street in Changchun and the difference is immense. There’s a reason there is a term for 北京話 and not one for 吉林話 – the latter is the national standard, while the former is a dialect. At least that’s what all my teachers (including one from Harbin) told me through high school and college. But then again, I guess everyone is inclined to say their version is the right one.
I still hold however that Beijinghua is not equal to Putonghua.[/quote]
People always say the most Standard Mandarin is in Harbin. Beijinghua is a dialect, just one that holds a certain amount of gravitas being from the capital and centre of culture.
Passing a test is no guarantee that anyone is up to a certain standard, unless the test and the examiners make it so. I am suspicious of anything language-related in China because most of it has become a cash cow: certificates, qualifications, tests…now if those people are actually hired and on the air at a provincial-level or higher broadcast program, I’d be more inclined to take notice.
PS the name of this thread really needs to be changed. “Mandarin” refers to the language regardless of where it’s spoken, and “Taiwanese Chinese” would refer to the Taiwanese variety of the Chinese language group, i.e. Taiyu.
Sorry guys, I didn’t notice that thread was moved and renamed, but yeah you guys are completely right, Beijinghua doesn’t equal Putonghua, it’s a dialect. That has never been my point throughout all my posts. I think that’s where most of the misunderstanding lies. But after living in Beijing for 5 years let me just tell you that the incessant use of 兒, “Beijinghua” that Beijing cabbies speak, and what non-cabbies, food stall sellers etc. Beijingers speak is NOT the same. What I referred to the whole time and I said was considered to be “最標準的普通話” was not referring to the Beijinghua dialect, it was referring to non-cabbies, food stall sellers etc. Beijinger’s Mandarin. The same way I assume that what Hokwongwei’s referring to is Dongbeiren’s Mandarin not Dongbeihua. Also by the way I didn’t state that the “最標準的普通話” comment was a fact which is why I used the word “considered” before I said that. I completely agree with OrangeOrganics, as Beijing’s capital and cultural status leads to this title and numerous other statements. The whole debate of where real Standard Mandarin comes from or is spoken is a difficult topic for anyone to be conclusive about to be honest. Many teachers have also told me that Dongbei is where correct Standard Mandarin is spoken and it originates etc. but the problem is that those teachers have all been from Dongbei themselves so I am suspicious about whether it’s bias that leads them to that conclusion. A larger number of Mainlanders have told me, as I said earlier, that Hebei and Beijing’s surroundings areas is where it’s actually correctly spoken. So unless you are willing to do the thousands of hours of research to find a conclusive answer, i.e. really comparing Jilin/Changchun & Beijing people’s Mandarin, then it’s down to you who you believe. Although it’s a very interesting topic, it was never my point lol. My opinion was simply that if you learn Putonghua in Beijing then you would find it easier to understand and express yourself when you go to other areas of China or Hong Kong or Taiwan, rather than vice versa. I think this because, aside from the debatable “最標準的普通話” topic, if you can learn the language and also understand Beijinghua then all other forms of Mandarin would be much clearer and easier to understand. No-one has to agree with this obviously as it’s just my opinion lol.
I want to ask you guys one thing, I regard Beijinghua as a dialect and I regard Taiyu/Minnanhua, Cantonese/Yueyu, Dongbeihua etc. as separate entities because in my mind a dialect is supposed to be a variation of a language, which I think Beijinghua is, whereas those other so called “dialects” are very different and I think constitute being referred to as separate languages, which Cantonese is in UK. What do you guys think?
PS, Hokwongwei, I dunno who changed the subject title but you are right.
Right, but my point is that learning Mandarin in Taiwan doesn’t make it harder to understand Chongqingers, Shanghaiites, Shenzheninos, or Inner Mongolians. The only people who are really really hard to understand (other than those from Shandong and Sichuan… special cases!) are Beijingers.
whoever told you Hebei is where standard Mandarin comes from is lying to your face:
A bunch a Hebei farmers protesting against the government and seeking help from foreign media. They were all severely punished by the party. The point is, this is what actual Hebei people sound like, it corresponds well with my childhood memory of interacting with late immigrants from Hebei. I’ve also had a lot of interactions during my childhood with people from Henan (my care taker was from Henan), they also had to “pick up” standard mandarin.
Hokwongwei, that’s true but again my point isn’t that those who learn Mandarin in Taiwan won’t understand Mainland Mandarin. My point is that if you learn in Beijing, you should be able to understand Beijingers (the most hideous and difficult to understand) and therefore the others are easier to understand. If you learn in Taiwan, you should be able to understand most places but will struggle with Beijingers and possibly other harsher spoken areas. Therefore those who understand Beijingers’ spectrum of places where they can communicate will be slightly wider and easier to transfer over to other areas. By the way, this is no knock on anyone who has learnt Mandarin in Taiwan, as I’m half Taiwanese and half of me is very proud that you chose to learn in Taiwan lol. Just stating my opinion.
hansioux, this is my point, you can find a video to disprove those people, but equally someone can find a video of Dongbei farmers and disprove that point. It’s never ending haha
this is what Beijinger sounded like when Matteo Ricci was there.
During the first half of the Qing dynasty, they still sounded like this. It is only until mid Qing dynasty that people started to shift away from the Nanjing dialect in Beijing. So this accent lasted in Beijing from 1368 to about 1800.
It would me much easier to adapt from a Southern Chinese Mandarin accent to Taiwanese Mandarin, than from a Northern/Beijing one。 I know A Fujianese girl whose Mandarin is nearly indivisible from Taiwanese I know. She may be a single case, but I really dont see the logic of why learning a Beijing accent would give you an advantage in anything.
General Zhang Xueliang, from Dongbei, back in the 1930s.
In comparison with other speeches made by contemporary Chinese politicians from other areas of China, I’d say this is about as close to standard mandarin as you could get.
Mao Tsedong back in 1949, Hunan accent
Chiang Kaishek’s Mandarin accent back in 1945, announcing on radio that the war against Japan is now over, Zhejiang accent
Mind you, they were all trying to speak what to them is “standard Mandarin”. If you compare chiang’s 1945 video with his Mandarin in the 1970s, you could see he eventually adjusted his accent to sound more like Zhang. In that regard, I think Chiang Senior in the end wielded better Standard Mandarin than his son ever did.
OrangeOrganics, You are completely right, Southern Chinese Mandarin is very very similar to Taiwanese Mandarin and your friend isn’t a single case, all of my Southern Chinese friends can adapt easily in Taiwan too. My original comparison was using Mainland Chinese and Taiwanese Chinese saying it would be easier to go from Mainland China to Taiwan than vice versa using the difficulty understanding Beijingers Chinese as my point.
Looking at this threads original post it’s kind of funny where it has gone because originally I was just stating my reason as to why I studied in Beijing despite being half Taiwanese. Nonetheless I respect your opinions and points of views.
I don’t think studying in Taiwan makes it that much more difficult to understand northern-style Chinese – and might have the advantage that most Chinese do not speak northern-style Chinese. You’re much more likely, overall, to get someone with a somewhat non-standard accent that more resembles Taiwanese Mandarin than the mythical standard.
It’s true that it’s a bit of an adjustment going over to “the other side” no matter which side is “yours”. I still have some trouble with random Mainland accents because of my long acclimatization to more Southern accents, but sometimes it’s also hard to know how much of that is truly accent and how much of it is mumbling, not being sure what they’re going to say in the first place, talking about some topic they’ve studied for 30 years and I haven’t, or whatever.
I am still waiting for the USB connection that makes me a native speaker, just plug it into the neck or something. Probably too much like all those injections in “Divergent” though.
