How has the thread gone off-topic? 
The discussion is about the usage of the word “mainland” and what it represents, as the title implies…
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Go back and read the original post. It was about the incident of the CECC deputy making an odd remark. I read it as the anomaly of a health official making a political statement at a COVID presser. It would help if @boaz25, the OP, would say something to clarify, instead of starting a topic and leaving the room.
Want to listen to this, but need to wait until tonight.
Should the claim that Taiwan belongs to China be based on the short period of Taiwan as a province before the Japanese took over or should the period since Taiwan was annexed in the 17th century and governed as a prefecture as part of Fujian Province be considered, I wonder?
The claims on Taiwan were based on a different definition of sovereignty. China claimed the ‘cooked’ aborigines, and figured the ‘raw’ would be eventually absorbed. The Western powers insisted China claim and take responsibility for the whole island, mostly so they could demand the Qing provide protection for shipwrecked sailors from the eastern aborigines.
I would say the PRC’s claim rests on the claim that it is the recognized successor of the ROC, itself the recognized successor of the Chinese Empire. It doesn’t recognize Japan’s claims any more than France recognizes Germany’s claims to Alsace-Lorraine.
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I read that book
Yeah its this, plus they have big guns. They quite clearly dont give a fuck about international laws and treaties anyway, see the SCS
Finished listening to that podcast, was more about Yu Yonghe in the end. Going to try and read that travel diary.
I am fine with however and wherever this discussion goes to. I was just sharing an article that I found interesting and that was not given the same prominence in English-speaking media. This is what forums are meant for 
@Marco is the moderator here. I’m sure that he will intervene when and if he believes that this discussion is going off-topic.
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It’s a good discussion on what mainland means. I get notifications for every post in this entire TW Politics forum.
Big Brother is watching.
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The Qing government never had nor claimed full control of the island. Even the Japanese eith their modern army spent over 25 years to exert themselves through out the island.
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Yes, they claimed it- whether they had full control doesn’t matter. Their claim on the island was acknowledged by the powers- indeed, insisted on.
Both the US and Japan were told by the Qing government that Aboriginal lands were outside of Qng’s jurisdiction. Both sent troops into Aboriginal lands. Both signed treaties directly with leaders of indigenous tribal alliances.
It was only when Japan wanted Qing to cede Taiwan that they pretended Qing had sovereignty over the entire island.
According to this source, it was by design.
http://www.tisanet.org/quarterly/3-2-4.pdf [page 8]
By the time Zheng’s authority surrendered to the Qing, the Qing unilaterally declared authority over Taiwan, but without actual administration. Indeed, the government had no intent to civilize the island. They simply wished to retain it as it was, uncultivated and primitive, because it was against the Qing’s interests to see a well-developed Taiwan that might cause a resurgence of anti-imperialism (Shepherd, 1993).
In 1874, an international conflict between the Qing and the Japan, which was caused by a Japanese shipwreck on the east coast, made the Qing change this policy and explore the mountainous area in order to comfort the indigenous peoples. However, faced with fiery resistance by indigenous tribes, the Qing never successfully extended its force into the mountainous aboriginal territory before Japan took over Taiwan in
1895 (Faure, 2001: 6, 26; Wolf, 1982).
On the eve of the Sino-Japanese War, about 45 percent of the island was governed by the Qing authority (mostly the western plains of the island), and the remaining
regions were under the control of various indigenous nations (Yosaburo, 1996:
212).
In 1874, Japan claimed that Taiwan was savage territory, not under the Qing’s
sovereignty, and as such could properly be claimed by whomever occupied it
(Harrison, 2001: 53).
Risking to steer this thread even further off-topic, here is a detailed account of the 1871 Mudan Village incident during which survivors of a Japanese shipwreck were killed by members of the Paiwan. The incident led to the invasion of Taiwan by Japan three years later.
I guess this is the US-Aborigines treaty, @hansioux is referring to:
As the Tokugawa regime was teetering on its last legs, U.S. consul to Amoy
(Xiamen) Charles LeGendre reprised, on a smaller scale, the 1853–54 U.S. missions to Tokyo in Langqiao, Taiwan. In the fall of 1867, LeGendre concluded a verbal agreement with the Langqiao headman Toketok to protect shipwrecked sailors from assault, robbery, and ransoming on Taiwan’s south coast.34 The agreement, like the 1854 Japan-U.S. treaty, reflected the efforts of maritime powers to make these as safer for greater volumes and velocities of commerce.
As a treaty-port consul in Xiamen, which subsumed Taiwan on the American
diplomatic organizational chart, LeGendre took the Langqiao Peninsula’s opacity
as a professional and personal affront. A letter to LeGendre from the Taiwan circuit attendant regarding the Rover referred to Articles 11 and 13 of the 1858 Treaty
of Tianjin to state “that whenever within the jurisdiction of the Emperor of China,
anyone shall molest Americans, the military and civil authorities must, on hearing of the same, try to punish the authors.” However, the note added—and this
became the sticking point for years to come—“the Savage country does not come
within the limits of our jurisdiction, and our military force is not able to operate
in it.”38 Finding this response unsatisfactory, LeGendre took the matter all the way
to the top (short of an imperial audience). In person, he proposed to the governorgeneral of Fujian and Zhejiang, Wu Tang, that the Langqiao Peninsula be occupied by Chinese inhabitants and garrisoned permanently by Qing forces.
A bit more about the Qing’s perspective (page 76 of that book)
The Qing’s inward orientation, as so many have noted, was not conducive to building national strength, as was made painfully clear when Li Hongzhang was left to fight Japan’s imperial forces with his regional navy in 1894. Its anachronistic and lowvelocity approach to diplomacy was best articulated in a formal response drafted by four members of the Zongli Yamen to pointed questions of Ōkubo Toshimichi at the September 14, 1874, negotiations for Japan’s withdrawal from Taiwan. The Qing ministers wrote:
In the aboriginal territory the Chinese Government let the indigenes keep their customs. Those who are able to pay tax pay it. Those who are talented enter nearby schools. We enforce generous and lenient policy to bring them up to a high level of edification. They are subject to the officials of the nearby districts. China stresses a gradual process of government, and has no intention to forcefully or too rapidly subjugate them. The natives of Hainan Island are treated the same. China has many regions of similar condition and every province has its own practices.
In other words, the Qing realm included many areas deserving of special treatment, depending on local conditions and levels of economic development. In some areas, it was appropriate to govern very little, if at all. Consequently, at the margins of Qing rule in Langqiao, LeGendre and then Saigō were forced to rely upon a collection of headmen, brokers, and guides for hire to locate allies in their search for the remains of fellow countrymen or in pursuit of malefactors who had killed them.
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Freedom of speech has negative aspects too. What country would have a better reason to muzzle our words, in regards to harmful propaganda, than taiwan? Quite frankly ALL of the free world, probably much of the psuedo free world, should bow down to taiwan and its patient demeanour. Just imagine USA type polarity. The left MUST respect taiwan for progressing in womens rights, gay rights etc. The right MUST respect taiwan for allowing all free speech. Best of both worlds. Pensions and taking care of non productive old people are our major downfall. Maybe thats why (causing) cancer is still promoted?
Taiwan is literally about as perfectly balanced as a country gets (i know there are issues and they will be pointed out to shame this post) these days. Ironically we are in one of the few places that gets no recognition as a country, despite fucking crushing it as a general observation.
Despite our allowing you to even view this post with our tech and logistics, it seems so retarded. we are all just tired of the whole fucking thing. china fuck off. Grow up or get the fuck out.
The rest of the world: fuck you too you bunch of hypocritical loons. If you care about BLM, feminism, all children matter, gay rights, religious freedoms and whatever other pitty parade you might try and get attention on via social media. check the back of your device you are reading this on and then check yourself. Our actions speak louder than…texts…
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Sorry, something needs to be done about CCP media infiltration, it’s not a freedom of speech issue, it’s a national security issue
Agreed. What i was saying is taiwan is the free est of speech in a way because it allows its direct oppressor to have a voice. Not agreeing with it, but we make the right wing usa freedom of speech people look like…well, nevermind. They should support taiwan is what i am saying.
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They were not Japanese.
Yes, they were from Okinawa, just happened that the Japanese, for various reasons, claimed them as their own. Hence the invasion.
More interesting is the way the Qing treated the indigenous people. The somewhat slow approach was like, let them savages do their own thing, they will eventually come to civilization. While this was certainly driven by monetary constraints and the lack of urgency, in a way that approach seemed to be a bit more friendly to the indigenous people than the forced-assimilation approach by the Japanese during their colonial period.
The Qing, as quoted above, had about 45% of the territory under control when they ceded Taiwan to Japan. But it was the important bits, the cities, plains, and harbors. You could argue that they were in charge of the island. The Japanese then did manage to get most everything under control before the end of WW2.
The decision by the Allies to have CKS administer Taiwan, what do you think they thought would happen? CKS does the administrative work, and then hand the island to the islanders, letting them decide their future? Were there any conditions under which CKS was given the reins to govern the island?
Don’t get me wrong, CKS was, by all accounts, a terrible ruler, and his government cruel and corrupt. What they did in the late 40s and up to the 70s was surely reprehensible. I am just trying to educate myself and get closer to factual accuracy.
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But it’s not about difference of opinion , they are controlling media here and sending disinformation through social Media. Its nothing to do with freedom of speech, these are acts of the CCP information war on Taiwan. Need to be stopped.
I get what you are saying but I don’t think it’s a good thing, rather something the Ma government actively encouraged and only now the DPP is something about it
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Originally. After threats of taking eastern Taiwan (at least) from China if they didn’t assume full sovereignty China caved and claimed all of Taiwan. No, they didn’t have actual control over it, but they were forced to assume responsibility for the actions of the east coast aborigines, which is what Americam, Brirain, and France (if not Japan) wanted.