Are you referring to no sales tax in exports? We dont pay tax other than income on exports too. But that is a terrible reason not to sell locally…
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If you keep saying engineering jobs creates more jobs, how does the place of manufacture not seem important? Especially if it is an extremely hostile enemy manufacturing all your country’s computer brands…seems very important.
Luckily in another thread we discussed brnds NOT made in China. Taiwan does make.laptops and sells them for a similar price as abroad within taiwan. What i find pathetic is the lack of stores carrying locally made as well as consumers seemingly not demanding them at the store. Free market and all that, so i talk to store floor managers bout what i want. Hopefully with enough others they will start to carry locally made products. Agriculture products are probably leading all the markets in a push for locally made. Which seems ironic as its likely the least efficiently taiwan sourced market, at least in the sense of manfacture and assembly.
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That’s a valid figure, even though it’s just for Taipei.
Taiwan’s per-capita GDP at the exchange rate is $25,000. When adjusted for PPP, it’s $60,000. So that’s a multiplier of 2.4.
Brain drain is a non-issue. If incomes rise, engineers will go back. The same phenomena happened in the 80s. As soon as incomes in Taiwan rose, engineers left Silicon Valley to go back home.
The bigger problem is the decline in STEM startups in Taiwan, as engineers all want to work for TSMC and Mediatek now.
You and others here on Forumosa claim Taiwan laobans can defy gravity.
What you are proposing is impossible.
Companies didn’t leave for China because labor in Taiwan was getting cheaper.
But once the AI ecosystem is established here, it’ll be hard for Google, Amazon, and MS to leave even when salaries increase.
Sorry, you don’t use GDP PPP to compare salaries. $60,000 USD in Taipei is not the equivalent of $150,000 USD in SF/SV. I linked to a cost of living index that provides a more realistic comparison.
British research institute Oxford Economics has released its Global Talent 2021 report in which Taiwan is graded as possessing the strongest “talent deficit” of any nation in the world.
Six out of 10 Taiwanese who leave the nation to work abroad are professionals. Due to a skewed birth ratio and an aging society, Taiwan’s talent deficit is even more serious than in Japan.
Everybody talks about brain drain here. Just Google brain drain Taiwan. If it’s not an issue, why do so many key people and organizations think it is?
It’s not just that. The startup ecosystem here is basically non-existent and capital for startups is nowhere near as plentiful as it is in places that have vibrant tech scenes. Plus culturally, starting a company is not very attractive here.
Now you’re comparing two types of labor? We’re talking about skilled engineers, not factory workers. And there are many factors beyond labor costs that led to companies moving to China.
Do you know what Google, Amazon and MS pay their engineers and technical people here compared to Mountain View and Seattle/Bellevue? I do. It’s nowhere close. And again, there’s currently very little external stimulus for salaries to increase.
I think US/global tech companies will continue to increase their footprints in Taiwan but it’s not going to be anywhere near as strategically important as you seem to think it is. And I say that regretfully as someone who really wants to see Taiwan grow, and grow beyond the handful of industries/companies that are driving its success today.
I always buy Asus and Acer to support Taiwan
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That’s what PPP is made for. To see how much you can buy with your income.
What???
No, I have no idea, even though my siblings work for Airbnb, Twitch (Amazon) and Linkedin (MS).
If salaries are low, go somewhere else. That’s not a problem. When salaries in Taiwan increased in the 80s, people left their two-car garage homes in Silicon Valley to go back.
That’s the same reason why Mexicans don’t migrate to the US anymore.
Taiwan is already the Asian R&D hub for a lot of things.
You (and others here) are making predictions based on the fact that laobans underpay everybody, predictions that fly in the face of economic theory.
Let me ask you three simple questions.
- Do you believe Taiwan’s economy will continue to grow? The government forecasts 1.56% for 2020 and 3.92% for 2021. And they’re usually right.
- Do you believe middle class Taiwanese will share in that growth?
- If not, how do you explain the high incomes in Shinzu?
You should read up more about GDP PPP. Again, a $60,000 USD salary in Taipei is not equivalent to a $150,000 USD salary in SF/SV. You can look at cost of living data and run the numbers yourself. It’s a simple calculation.
Taiwanese culture is pretty risk averse. Most people value stability and predictability. Here, if you can get a job at TSMC, you don’t dream about starting the next TSMC.
The lack of a solid ecosystem for raising capital doesn’t help this.
Are you talking to me? I’m self-employed and don’t have to deal with the salaries here, which gives me a different perspective on the situation as I see what people with similar skill sets get paid in different markets.
For others, going somewhere else is precisely what Taiwanese do. I posted a number of links about brain drain. It’s a real phenomenon.
Those who did made a pretty bad decision. And that was 40 years ago. The world has changed.
They’re not migrating to the US because they got jobs as engineers? Again, you keep making comparisons between skilled and unskilled, tech and non-tech labor. It doesn’t make sense.
Maybe you’re too focused on theory and not the reality?
Even with Taiwan’s average economic growth registering 2.7 percent annually over the past 10 years, wage levels each year have only increased by about 1.5 percent on average, far more sluggish than economists and policymakers expected.
The small portion of national GDP growth shared with employees has been an important factor leading to the nation’s stagnant wages.
Business profits accounted for about 30 percent of Taiwan’s GDP prior to 1990, and gradually climbed to reach 35 percent in 2016, data provided by the Directorate-General of Budget, Accounting and Statistics showed.
However, in the meantime, the part of the nation’s GDP allocated to employee salaries — dubbed the “labor share” by the International Labour Organization — declined after 1995, falling to a low of 43.8 percent in 2010. It was 43.81 percent in 2016.
There are many ways to respond when people ask why the nation has not seen more wage growth, but the big questions are whether companies could share their profits with their employees and whether they are willing to do so.
It seems that companies have tended to be more generous with shareholders than with employees, which explains why many employees do not amass any savings even though they work hard.
You can Google Taiwan stagnant wages if you care to learn more about the reality.
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PPP is an adjustment based on local prices.
You are getting way and way off your rocker.
This is especially ironic because anybody who looks at Taiwan can tell that 90% of businesses are mom and pop. Taiwanese want to be their own boss. They are risk adverse, but that translates into seeking immediate profits and not making long-term investments, not into a lack of entrepreneurship.
This is not correct. Taiwan has a lively startup scene. It’s just that they’re not people with STEM backgrounds like the previous generation.
Give me some of that stuff you’re smoking. There’d be no Taiwan IT industry if that didn’t happen.
The article you cited, written by a socialist, shows that wage growth wasn’t as fast as economic growth. That’s true in the USA too. It’s not saying wages didn’t grow at all. You’re saying wages won’t grow even if the economy does.
Compal and Quanta
Buy OEM
They were largely stagnant for fifteen years and from 2000 to 2010 they went down for many folks. Last five years there’s been some increases. I’ve reviewed the numbers often before and also saw the reality living and working here. Wasn’t great.
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Perhaps yes, a vendor told me they can sell imported ones more cheaply than domestic ones and the domestic ones they export.
I do know that the retail price of a made in Taiwan lap top , can be cheaper in the UK than Taiwan.
There are different types of entrepreneurship. We’re not talking about starting a restaurant. We’re talking about high-growth technology ventures that require the investment of significant amounts of capital.
Well, like I said, I lived and worked in Silicon Valley for most of my life. This is my industry. By no objective or subjective measure is it realistic to say that Taiwan has a “lively startup scene.” It simply doesn’t.
You’re talking about Taiwan. I’m talking about the individual. If you worked in tech and owned a house with a two car garage in Silicon Valley in the 1980s and sold it and moved back to Taiwan to work, chances are you lost out.
What do this person’s political views have to do with the figures? And this gets us back to the point of this discussion: Taiwan’s wage growth significantly lags its overall economic growth.
In any case, since you said you didn’t know what people in US tech make, you could do some research. It’s not hard to find out what companies pay employees in the US, Europe, China and other Asian hubs like Singapore and HK versus Taiwan. Then you’ll understand why Taiwan’s wages and brain drain are always being talked about.
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Your sarcasm meter is broken.
Ahhh sarcasm. The next best option when the facts don’t fit your argument.
I’ll conclude my participation in this thread with a survey that pretty much sums it up.
Yes, that could very well be true. Same for Canada/US, they get it cheaper than here as well. But there are far more variables than simply tax. And yes, the government here is VERY strong on the export point!
Interestingly, in certain sectors that have far more safety laws in place than much of the west, such as food an agriculture (yes i know, but its true) it is cheaper to manufacture things in awestern country and import them here with a duty rather than go through the (new) hoops of setting.up a food or medicine factory in taiwan. The knee jerk has gotten real in taiwan in regards to food safety laws. Enforcement is shit, annd corruption common, but the laws are nevertheless itense and often contradictory. Things that seem especially worthy of import are things that are fermented in various ways. Cheese, nondistilled alcohol, and along those lines.the old timers can.do it easy. But start a new factory today, prepare to spend millions before you get a sample out (legally).
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Did you forget to read the whole sentence?
OK, let’s take iPhones for example. Yes, they’re made in China. But that’s just the assembly, which is 3% of the total value-added.
Design: USA
Semiconductors: Taiwan
Displays: Korea
Camera: Taiwan
Biometric sensors: Taiwan
Where are all the good engineering jobs going?
Yes, very fair point. I misunderstood you saying.engineering. lots of non chinese jobs are in other sectors as well, such as sales, marketing, logistics etc.
However lets pretend the 3% figure for chinese involvement is accurate (i assume its higher in ophines, but i am not doing any research so cant say with confidence). I cannot imagine supporting an enemy state at all. Would ajew support a nazi to make a buck? Cuba support microsoft? Well, they might…but hey are without a reasonable in the red morally and borderline treasonous.
I see your point, i really do. Dont even.really disagree, but it is wrong. A fun counter argument made by people against people like me (against chinese government) is that places like vietnam, india, bangledesh, mexico etc also have massive human rights concerns. To which I agree. I only hope people can see past the shiny plastic veneer and see that places like vietnam, india and mexico are far more willing to play fair with the world and play give and take. the ccp is a while different machine that seems rightfully more comparible to nazi ideology and that is why we should care. Lets not forget how rich Vietnam is getting off of the CCP strategically sabotaging taiwan business. Not the only example, but perhaps the biggest and most relevant.
And it is all due, 99%, because of individual people making purchases. aka, it was a choice. Hostory wont look kindly at this state of affairs, but hopefully we can make changes before its too late. Or maybe he CCP will change and all this worry can be burried. Not likely though.
